Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors

[Schulzy]

1 hour ago, Dogmantra said:

Not sure if I'm understanding you correctly but the Prime does add 1 attack, making it 1d6+1 attacks if you give it the shockbolt bow. That said, it also gets +1 attack to the skybolt bows, and 3 attacks with MWs on 6s seems just a little bit better to me, especially since that's what the rest of the unit is specialised to do.

Oh sorry for the confusion, you are indeed correct, the prime does add +1A. I was looking at the warscroll for the Judicators in the new AoS app and it doesn't have the champion/prime option, yet the Judicators with crossbows do, guess it's just another bug in the new app

Looking back at the screenshots of the new hard copy battletome, Judicators with bows do indeed have a prime option.

[Charleston]

I couldn't help but to jump into SCE with the new tome and Dominion. Current goal for 2k is to play the Dominion content + new Knight Judicator + 6 Longstrikes. I really like to have a shooty options available and also dominion looks like a good start. I wonder a bit about the community not talking the Vigilors.

Despite the models I think they look like a fine option providing a nice +1 to hit buff and have a solid profile in ranged and meele. Only downside I see is the lack of the redeemer keyword and the taxing high point cost for ranged units. Also, what are the toughts on Vanquishers? With the musician and a load of attacks I imagine them as nice blender against durable horde units. 

[OkayestDM]

19 minutes ago, Charleston said:

I couldn't help but to jump into SCE with the new tome and Dominion. Current goal for 2k is to play the Dominion content + new Knight Judicator + 6 Longstrikes. I really like to have a shooty options available and also dominion looks like a good start. I wonder a bit about the community not talking the Vigilors.

Despite the models I think they look like a fine option providing a nice +1 to hit buff and have a solid profile in ranged and meele. Only downside I see is the lack of the redeemer keyword and the taxing high point cost for ranged units. Also, what are the toughts on Vanquishers? With the musician and a load of attacks I imagine them as nice blender against durable horde units. 

Vigilors sit in a weird spot because they're a mixed combat unit that have abilities which make you want to leave them out of melee. Technically, they're only operating at full combat effectiveness if you can shoot a unit (or units) and then charge them into melee. The problem with that is that - for Stormcast - they're rather fragile and moving them into melee means you risk loosing out on their best ability, which is generating +1 to hit against enemy units that they damage in shooting.

Vanquishers are just a disappointingly designed unit that doesn't really synergize well with it's own abilities. You can only take the musician in a unit of 10, which sounds fine until you realize that they only have 1" range on their swords, meaning half of the unit is dead weight, and being able to rally models on a 5+ does you no favors. Also, while their bonus attacks aren't terrible - you're going to run into plenty of 5-10 model units, even a minimum sizes - there's a whole lot of units out there with less than 5 models in their ranks. If you run Vanquishers into a 4-man ogor unit, the Vanquishers just become inferior Vindictors - 2 attacks each but without mortal wound potential and a worse save characteristic. If they had a base of 3 attacks instead of 2 they'd be more interesting, because even at they're worst they'd offer a decent number of attacks for less, but without a 2" range on their weapons I can't see a compelling reason to ever run them above 5.

[PJetski]

Vanquishers should have been 2 attacks 3+/3+/-1 and Damage 2. Basically an entire unit of Grandweapons. That would have made them the punchy REDEEMER unit. It's not the best niche but it's better than nothing.

[Marcvs]

59 minutes ago, Charleston said:

what are the toughts on Vanquishers? With the musician and a load of attacks I imagine them as nice blender against durable horde units. 

you need to get at least 7 vanquishers to fight vs a 10-men unit in order for them to do more damage than 10 vindictors (they will have little problem to get into combat with 2" reach), all the while they have a worse save and cost only 10 points less...
 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Marcvs

[Tizianolol]

Guys with cavernous jawz stardrake ability is i kill 3 models in that way. My opponent decide what model remove , or I can decide? Can I brake opponent coherency with that?

[PJetski]

3 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys with cavernous jawz stardrake ability is i kill 3 models in that way. My opponent decide what model remove , or I can decide? Can I brake opponent coherency with that?

You decide which models are slain

You can break coherency with it, but keep in mind if they can still fight in that phase they have a chance to pile in and fix coherency

[PJetski]

On 9/19/2021 at 11:41 AM, PJetski said:

Episode 1 of my new podcast "The Stormkeep" (featuring @jhamslam ) is here:

HD is still processing as I write this post

Gonna go play some games with the new book now

Come hang out in our discord server 

https://discord.gg/xHWx4vvS

[OG SCE]

2 hours ago, Marcvs said:

he wrote that they had "+2" to save, not a 2+ save so they were on 3+ ignoring rend 1

Bingo! That makes sense.

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

Vanquishers should have been 2 attacks 3+/3+/-1 and Damage 2. Basically an entire unit of Grandweapons. That would have made them the punchy REDEEMER unit. It's not the best niche but it's better than nothing.

Just range 2

[choppa6189]

Thinking about using this depending if i can afford all the dragons.

Command ability thunderbolt volley

Knight Draconis - mirror shield or amulet of destiny, menagerie

Knight incantor

4x stormdrakes, swords

2x stormdrakes, swords

2x stormdrakes, swords 

6 longstrikes

So double tapping longstrikes and the 4man stormdrake unit so has alot of 1st turn hitting power and threw in the incantor for the dispell scroll. not sure if i can pick a spell for incantor but probably go for celestial blades.

[PJetski]

Just now, JackStreicher said:

Just range 2

That would be an improvement, but Vindictors have that niche covered

[JackStreicher]

6 minutes ago, PJetski said:

That would be an improvement, but Vindictors have that niche covered

Yup, yet the two-hander-guys-no one-will-ever-play are anti mass which would be cool if you would get at least two tanks into combat. I am not sure what they‘re good for tbh (esp. the 4+ save and no ward)

 

Edit: Vigilors look nice model-wise. They‘re too expensive imo due to their +1 to hit. I would have loved them if their bows had a little more punch and if 5 would cost ~150 pts

Edited September 21, 2021 by JackStreicher

[macrake]

18 minutes ago, choppa6189 said:

Thinking about using this depending if i can afford all the dragons.

Command ability thunderbolt volley

Knight Draconis - mirror shield or amulet of destiny, menagerie

Knight incantor

4x stormdrakes, swords

2x stormdrakes, swords

2x stormdrakes, swords 

6 longstrikes

So double tapping longstrikes and the 4man stormdrake unit so has alot of 1st turn hitting power and threw in the incantor for the dispell scroll. not sure if i can pick a spell for incantor but probably go for celestial blades.

Close to one of the first lists I'll be trying. I think a lord-relictor is auto include. 2+ hero phase teleport is so good. Insures your raptors hit what you want them to, or pull off some crazy moves with SDG.

I basically swap the incantor and 2x sdg for 1x sdg, lord relictor and 5 libs. I like the flexibility of a cheap 145 drake. 5 libs to screen and/or hold a home objective is also nice.

[Phasteon]

4 hours ago, OG SCE said:

Glad to hear your game with OBR went well.  Seems like the Imperatant worked out well for you.

Forgive me if im wrong. Are you sure 2+ save with Libs is possible? My understanding was that while save stacking is possible the net save may never be more than +1.

Shields give Libs +1. Any further save buffs are used to mitigate rend.  Thats why vindictors are prefered by many.  They are battleline that can achieve a 2+ save.

I was excited during previews about Knight Excelsior for paladin as battleline.   This little list, however, may be just about enough to push me towards Hammers.  That and Bastian.

Thanks for sharing your experiences

They can max. succeed on a 3+ but you can stack +2 to negate -1 rend and still have a 3+, which was more than enough. 

 

[CommissarRotke]

I definitely missed this discussion, but could I get a recap on why Translocation feels broken/like cheating? is it only because it allows you to move in the hero phase?

[LordPrometheus]

15 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

I definitely missed this discussion, but could I get a recap on why Translocation feels broken/like cheating? is it only because it allows you to move in the hero phase?

Because the prayer rules don't say you can't move anymore in the movement phase. Some people say that's "broken", because SCE isn't allowed to have strong rules, apparently.

[macrake]

8 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

I definitely missed this discussion, but could I get a recap on why Translocation feels broken/like cheating? is it only because it allows you to move in the hero phase?

Couple of things, but mainly that part, yes. So here's the recap.

Hero phase teleport. Lord-relictor casts it on 2+. Can take a command trait to make that 2+ rerollable for a 1/36 chance of failure. Which you'll probably take unless going with monsters, because our only good command trait is menagerie.

It would still be really worthwhile without the bonus of being able to move after, because you can teleport for example 6x raptors and then guarantee their hero phase shoot, at any target you wish.

With the move, you can reliably charge a unit that normally wouldn't be able to on the turn you wish. Or you can make sure a fat unit of SDG get to charge in the hero phase, avoiding unleash hell and redeploy.

[frostfire]

Wait a sec. You cannot use unleash hell or redeploy in the hero phase? Why?

Edited September 21, 2021 by frostfire

[Marcvs]

1 minute ago, frostfire said:

Wait a sec. You cannot use unleash hell or redeploy in the hero phase? Why?

Because

[CommissarRotke]

30 minutes ago, LordPrometheus said:

Because the prayer rules don't say you can't move anymore in the movement phase. Some people say that's "broken", because SCE isn't allowed to have strong rules, apparently.

 

29 minutes ago, macrake said:

Couple of things, but mainly that part, yes. So here's the recap.

Hero phase teleport. Lord-relictor casts it on 2+. Can take a command trait to make that 2+ rerollable for a 1/36 chance of failure. Which you'll probably take unless going with monsters, because our only good command trait is menagerie.

It would still be really worthwhile without the bonus of being able to move after, because you can teleport for example 6x raptors and then guarantee their hero phase shoot, at any target you wish.

With the move, you can reliably charge a unit that normally wouldn't be able to on the turn you wish. Or you can make sure a fat unit of SDG get to charge in the hero phase, avoiding unleash hell and redeploy.

thank you both!! it really doesn't come across as broken, esp when we're still susceptible to MW and lost some bravery/battleshock auras in 3.0

[macrake]

It's actually really really strong with SDG. No redeploy is obviously nice enough, but the unleash hell is a big deal. Avoiding 15 bow snakes unleashing, or two units of sentinels unleashing, or 30 skinks.

Pretty great tool against some of the top tier lists.

[LordPrometheus]

2 minutes ago, macrake said:

It's actually really really strong with SDG. No redeploy is obviously nice enough, but the unleash hell is a big deal. Avoiding 15 bow snakes unleashing, or two units of sentinels unleashing, or 30 skinks.

Pretty great tool against some of the top tier lists.

A tool we desperately need, imo

[macrake]

2 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

 

thank you both!! it really doesn't come across as broken, esp when we're still susceptible to MW and lost some bravery/battleshock auras in 3.0

I dont think it's broken either. Not compared to the many other "broken" top tier lists. I do think it's one of the things that will make stormcast able to compete at the highest tiers. But I think that's about time.

[macrake]

1 minute ago, LordPrometheus said:

A tool we desperately need, imo

Yep. I hope that both SC and the new OW tome can have an impact on the top tier meta. Would be sad if things are just knee-****** nerfed before we get a chance to play it out and see how stuff performs against top lists.