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Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors


PJetski
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Gardus' (not very) moving castle

Spoiler
Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hallowed Knights (Stormkeep)
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired
Gardus Steel Soul (160)*
Yndrasta, The Celestial Spear (320)*
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- General
- Command Trait: High Priest
- Artefact: Mirrorshield
- Prayer: Translocation
10 x Vindictors (260)*
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Vindictors (260)*
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Vindictors (130)*
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)*
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Praetors (165)*
3 x Aetherwings (65)
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1985 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 97
Drops: 2

 

(of course, this has huge problems in covering the board in any meaningful sense)

this message is also a PSA: wascroll builder is updated. Still misses a few things from the new BT (holy orders and stuff) but we can stop with the walls of text from the app

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3 hours ago, PrimeElectrid said:

Yeah but I am.

Sorry, don’t mean to sound ungrateful, but at this point I think my best choice is to drop out.

I think so, too. Not trying to be mean; it's just the nature of this pay to win hobby, unfortunately.

Though I will say that so far the best 3rd ed Stormcast list I've seen has zero Thunderstrike models, and only 2 units from Sacrosanct - the rest are Warrior/Vanguard units.

Edited by PJetski
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30 minutes ago, PJetski said:

I think so, too. Not trying to be mean; it's just the nature of this pay to win hobby, unfortunately.

Though I will say that so far the best 3rd ed Stormcast list I've seen has zero Thunderstrike models, and only 2 units from Sacrosanct - the rest are Warrior/Vanguard units.

What’s the list?

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42 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Though I will say that so far the best 3rd ed Stormcast list I've seen has zero Thunderstrike models, and only 2 units from Sacrosanct - the rest are Warrior/Vanguard units.

Out of curiosity how does that list look? (Edit: Got my answer above)

As I stated in another thread about the new 3.0 books, I think most shortcomings appear when compared to the borderline broken (or outright broken) top competitive options, such as Gotrek, Morathi, MW archer spam etc. Almost anything will fall short when that is the bar it needs to meet. They could give paladins 1+ saves and dmg 5 attacks, but that would hardly make any difference against those lists that dominate the top, that is how bonkers they are and makes the rest of the competitive scene impossible to balance in relation at this point.

Drakes look so good as they have tools to deal with some of these, high movement, hero phase charges to reduce unleash hell from MW spam archers etc. I think the new Stormcast book lands in the better end of the "fat middle", aside from drake spam which might right now be low top tier, but can easily drop down with only points adjustments. 

In a more traditional wargame setting this book is quite good, many solid warscrolls, strong statlines, some more decently pointed than others, but there are cool things here. Multiple options to get battleline with rend 2 and 3+ saves, battleline shooting with rend 2 or MW output, boardwide teleport with movement after, strong spell lore etc. This only falls short against the above mentioned stuff. 

When going to a tournament now and you want to WIN you have a loundry list of things your list needs an answer for, as you will probably meet these if going 4/1 or 5/0 and quite possibly before. Can your list deal with blobs of sentinels or snake archers? Can your list handle Gotrek (kill or avoid), can you handle Mega Gargants? (need to be able to alpha 1 per turn), can you handle Archaon and Morathi? (again kill or avoid), Will your army completely be shut down by a Khorne demon prince? (half run and charges). This is crazy stuff and needs bonkers stuff to solve. Drakes just happen to have answers to multiple things on this list, thanks to extreme mobility mostly at an efficient cost for toughness and damage output. 

There is no simple solution to this, many new books will probably fall short of being able to deal with the above meta lists, as new books basically needs to be poorly designed to deal with equally poorly designed oppressive game pieces. It is an arms race everybody loses. I would almost have preferred GW did what they did in 40k going from 7th to 8th, where all books became invalid and everyone just used a rather vanilla compendium. It was sort of bland for each army, but it was also rather balanced and fun.

The reduced complexity of the 3.0 tomes so far looks a bit like this, but this time they enter an environment where stuff like Lumineth 2.0 exists and Gotrek invalidates any combat warscroll you can think of, there is literally nothing you can come up with that can fight him at 430 points. The paladin list i posted earlier could be fun, but all an opponent needs to do is castle up around gotrek and screen a bit to soften the alpha, then just counter charge and destroy a paladin unit per turn with ease, there is 0 risk of him dying or not killing what he wants to, the meta is mad right now and new books got no chance of striking the right balance in that environment.

 

Edited by Scurvydog
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19 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Out of curiosity how does that list look? 

As I stated in another thread about the new 3.0 books, I think most shortcomings appear when compared to the borderline broken (or outright broken) top competitive options, such as Gotrek, Morathi, MW archer spam etc. Almost anything will fall short when that is the bar it needs to meet. They could give paladins 1+ saves and dmg 5 attacks, but that would hardly make any difference against those lists that dominate the top, that is how bonkers they are and makes the rest of the competitive scene impossible to balance in relation at this point.

Drakes look so good as they have tools to deal with some of these, high movement, hero phase charges to reduce unleash hell from MW spam archers etc. I think the new Stormcast book lands in the better end of the "fat middle", aside from drake spam which might right now be low top tier, but can easily drop down with only points adjustments. 

In a more traditional wargame setting this book is quite good, many solid warscrolls, strong statlines, some more decently pointed than others, but there are cool things here. Multiple options to get battleline with rend 2 and 3+ saves, battleline shooting with rend 2 or MW output, boardwide teleport with movement after, strong spell lore etc. This only falls short against the above mentioned stuff. 

When going to a tournament now and you want to WIN you have a loundry list of things your list needs an answer for, as you will probably meet these if going 4/1 or 5/0 and quite possibly before. Can your list deal with blobs of sentinels or snake archers? Can your list handle Gotrek (kill or avoid), can you handle Mega Gargants? (need to be able to alpha 1 per turn), can you handle Archaon and Morathi? (again kill or avoid), Will your army completely be shut down by a Khorne demon prince? (half run and charges). This is crazy stuff and needs bonkers stuff to solve. Drakes just happen to have answers to multiple things on this list, thanks to extreme mobility mostly at an efficient cost for toughness and damage output. 

There is no simple solution to this, many new books will probably fall short of being able to deal with the above meta lists, as new books basically needs to be poorly designed to deal with equally poorly designed oppressive game pieces. It is an arms race everybody loses. I would almost have preferred GW did what they did in 40k going from 7th to 8th, where all books became invalid and everyone just used a rather vanilla compendium. It was sort of bland for each army, but it was also rather balanced and fun.

The reduced complexity of the 3.0 tomes so far looks a bit like this, but this time they enter an environment where stuff like Lumineth 2.0 exists and Gotrek invalidates any combat warscroll you can think of, there is literally nothing you can come up with that can fight him at 430 points. The paladin list i posted earlier could be fun, but all an opponent needs to do is castle up around gotrek and screen a bit to soften the alpha, then just counter charge and destroy a paladin unit per turn with ease, there is 0 risk of him dying or not killing what he wants to, the meta is mad right now and new books got no chance of striking the right balance in that environment.

 

Check above for the list, I think I posted it while you were writing this post.

You need to deal about 24 wounds to Gotrek to kill him through his 3+ Ward in one turn. On average 10x Protectors alone can kill Gotrek if you use Unleash Thy Hatred, but we can soften him up with shooting too. The 4 Starsouls are 2 packets of 1 damage each, and those will do ~7 Mortals to him. If you buff Protectors with +1 Hit (easy) and +1 Wound (Celestial Blades) then the remaining 6 Glaives (37 attacks on 2+/2+) can expect to do ~17 wounds to a 3+ Save. That's 24 packets of 1 damage right there for only 470 points, and you still have a 2+ save with 30 wounds left over.

Nothing in the game can kill Morathi in one turn, but we can kill their bow snakes with our shooting (Scions is bae) and tank Morathi long enough to kill her (she's not that punchy).

We have loads of units that can wipe out Gargants in a single turn - Stormcast do ridiculous damage now. Fulminators on the charge, Grandhammers, Protectors, and double tap Raptors do a great job against big targets. 6x Grandhammers with Unleash and +1 hit can kill a 20W 2+/5+ in one turn (only 480pt) after getting a 7" rerollable charge from Scions or 5" rerollable charge from Translocation.

Stormcast have the tools to beat everything in the meta while having an entire army of 3+ saves, lots of save stacking, and potentially an army-wide 5+ Ward. It's a good time to be gold.

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I've been thinking about this list, not sure if it has enough bodies though.
 
Spoiler

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
- Grand Strategy: Dominating Presence
- Triumphs: Indomitable
Lord-Commander Bastian Carthalos (300)*
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- General
- Command Trait: High Priest
- Artefact: Mirrorshield
- Prayer: Translocation
Lord-Imperatant (175)*
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
6 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (480)**
- Reinforced x 1
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)**
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Aetherwings (65)**
*Warlord
**Hunters of the Heartlands
Holy Command: Thunderbolt Volley
Holy Command: Unleash Thy Hatred

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 87
Drops: 9


Bastian is in the list basically for deployment tricks, if the opponent takes the first turn because they think they can kill my longstrikes i redeploy them to safety or just put them in reserve.

Both holy commands for longstrike double tap and paladin attacks. Use bastian with relictor to send him in into smaller chaff, let him take damage and fight with him last so that he can heal himself each turn.

Buh or yay? I do feel lika aetherwings can be swapped for 10 skinks.

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19 minutes ago, Naprapaten said:
I've been thinking about this list, not sure if it has enough bodies though.
 
  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
- Grand Strategy: Dominating Presence
- Triumphs: Indomitable
Lord-Commander Bastian Carthalos (300)*
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- General
- Command Trait: High Priest
- Artefact: Mirrorshield
- Prayer: Translocation
Lord-Imperatant (175)*
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
6 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (480)**
- Reinforced x 1
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)**
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Aetherwings (65)**
*Warlord
**Hunters of the Heartlands
Holy Command: Thunderbolt Volley
Holy Command: Unleash Thy Hatred

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 87
Drops: 9


Bastian is in the list basically for deployment tricks, if the opponent takes the first turn because they think they can kill my longstrikes i redeploy them to safety or just put them in reserve.

Both holy commands for longstrike double tap and paladin attacks. Use bastian with relictor to send him in into smaller chaff, let him take damage and fight with him last so that he can heal himself each turn.

Buh or yay? I do feel lika aetherwings can be swapped for 10 skinks.

Looks fine. I'm not sure Bastian is the best way to go but the deployment trick is nice with Raptors and he's a great durable beatstick alongside the Grandhammers.

Keep the Aetherwings. +1 Hit in every phase is really useful since it's the only way to get +1 hit while using Thunderbolt Volley and Unleash Hell since you can't AOA in those phases. Could also save you a CP in shooting phase.

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22 minutes ago, Naprapaten said:
I've been thinking about this list, not sure if it has enough bodies though.
 
  Hide contents

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
- Grand Strategy: Dominating Presence
- Triumphs: Indomitable
Lord-Commander Bastian Carthalos (300)*
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- General
- Command Trait: High Priest
- Artefact: Mirrorshield
- Prayer: Translocation
Lord-Imperatant (175)*
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
6 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (480)**
- Reinforced x 1
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)**
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Aetherwings (65)**
*Warlord
**Hunters of the Heartlands
Holy Command: Thunderbolt Volley
Holy Command: Unleash Thy Hatred

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 87
Drops: 9


Bastian is in the list basically for deployment tricks, if the opponent takes the first turn because they think they can kill my longstrikes i redeploy them to safety or just put them in reserve.

Both holy commands for longstrike double tap and paladin attacks. Use bastian with relictor to send him in into smaller chaff, let him take damage and fight with him last so that he can heal himself each turn.

Buh or yay? I do feel lika aetherwings can be swapped for 10 skinks.

I like the list. I'll just point out what weaknesses I see. Most obvious weakness is the reliance on the unit of 6x grandhammers. They will fail their charge 1 in 4 times. Thats basically game over right there. The list relies completely on your longstrikes and grandhammers alpha strike. I would go for the one drop. To do that, you'd have to drop the aetherwings. Could upgrade the libs to Vindictors.

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23 hours ago, PJetski said:

Episode 1 of my new podcast "The Stormkeep" (featuring @jhamslam ) is here:

HD is still processing as I write this post

Gonna go play some games with the new book now

Thank you for the podcast! For not experienced players like myself, it'a very good piece of information. 

Edited by EngraBlackSword
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What do you think about this list to play against Seraphon/Ossiarch/Lumineth/Kruleboys ? 

2010 points are autorized

Spoiler

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Knights Excelsior
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)*
- Celestine Hammer
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Celestial Instincts
Lord-Imperatant (175)*
- General
- Command Trait: Envoy of the Heavens
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- Universal Prayer Scripture: Curse

Battleline
10 x Protectors (450)*
- 4x Starsoul Maces
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (240)*
3 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (240)*
5 x Vindictors (130)*
5 x Vindictors (130)*

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 2010 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 99
Drops: 1
 

 

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2 minutes ago, Balthasar said:

What do you think about this list to play against Seraphon/Ossiarch/Lumineth/Kruleboys ? 

2010 points are autorized

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Knights Excelsior
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)*
- Celestine Hammer
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Celestial Instincts
Lord-Imperatant (175)*
- General
- Command Trait: Envoy of the Heavens
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- Universal Prayer Scripture: Curse

Battleline
10 x Protectors (450)*
- 4x Starsoul Maces
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (240)*
3 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (240)*
5 x Vindictors (130)*
5 x Vindictors (130)*

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 2010 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 99
Drops: 1
 

 

Taking Curse over Translocation or Divine Light?

I think you have too much melee and not enough ranged support. I would run Annihilators or Protectors, both seems like an overcommitment.

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I just finished a game with a almost full sacro sanct army, the list was the following:

  • Hallowed knight stormkeep.
  • Grands strategy: precious sorcery
  •  
  • Lord arcanum on Tauralon: celestial menagerie, azyrite halo, drakescale armor, call for aid
  • Lord relictor: translocation
  • knight incantor: celestial blades
  •  
  • 3x5 sequitors
  • 5 evocators
  • 3 dracolines
  • 2 stormdrakes
  • 2x celetar balista
  • Everblaze comet

    On this setup sequitors delas MW when charged, can fight back after they die, can make a sqaud of 5 reapear somewhere else...etc. Tauralon is a tank, stormdrake brings utility and HUGE projection, translocation is a game winning ability....etc.


Against a khorne list:

  • reaper of vengeance:
  •  
  • Skarbrand
  • wrath of khorne bloodthirster
  • bloodthirster of unfettered fury
  • khorne deamon prince
  • bloodsecrator
  • slaughterpriest
  •  
  • 20 bloodletters
  • 5 flesh hounds
  • 10 bloodreavers
  • 5 wrathmongers


On paper very frightening, and it was, skarbrand may be fragile but he deletes pretty much everything he touches, the bloodthirsters are nice but not a huge threat for our tanky army and the rest is negligable.

the scenario was APEX PREDATOR, which was in the favor of my opponentn since only heroes can score and secure objectives in this scenario.

Long story short i won 24/17, tabled him and only lost the tauralon (with a pro double move skarbrand who then charged into my poor poor bird to delete him from existence) a couple of sequitors and my squad of evocators so here's my thoughts of sacrosanct:

Tauralon: great utility, he synergized the balistas and the drake thanks to his command trait so well!
He helped a lot for objectives and tactics and can tank very very well thanks to the drakescale armor and a couple of armor buff, very vulnerable to MW though. B+

Balistas: Very good unit, picking one is too little and 3 sounds like too much points for such specific niche (sniping low wound heroes) but they do that perfectly! combine this with a couple of MW here and there (which this army pumps A LOT) and no <6W heroes should survive long. A+

Sequitors: in this particular setup they deal MW when you charge them, then again when you kill them, they can fight back when they die on a 4+ AND they get a natural 5+ ward.
you can put an extra squad of them when needed with "call for aid", they are simply amazing. B+

Evocators/Dracoline: Evocators feels great with the current state of translocation (which is broken BTW) and play almost like annihilators with the extra layer of utility on the MW (you can charge and fight a sqaud and use your pile-in movement to "slide" arround the unit and snipe a character hidden behind with your zap zap).
Dracolines are better in every way, they punch with so many attacks that you will deal damages and the extra MW are very appreciated. They play the same as before and do it slightly better so i'd say they are pretty good. B+

incantor: cheap and have a scroll, not much else but he's really really appreciated! B+

Lord relictor: i hope they FAQ the translocation because right now it feels like cheating. other than that he's a beast, he's versatile and his ither spells are nice. As long as translocation stays the same he's an auto include! S

Stormdrake: the have everything, what else can i say? MW that AUTO HIT on a shooting attack, MONSTER keyword, a decent volume of rend 2 damage 2 attacks making them valuable in combat AND -1 to get wounded...... why would you not play a sqaud of these in every of your game? S

 

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5 minutes ago, jeanfluflu said:

I just finished a game with a almost full sacro sanct army, the list was the following:

  • Hallowed knight stormkeep.
  • Grands strategy: precious sorcery
  •  
  • Lord arcanum on Tauralon: celestial menagerie, azyrite halo, drakescale armor, call for aid
  • Lord relictor: translocation
  • knight incantor: celestial blades
  •  
  • 3x5 sequitors
  • 5 evocators
  • 3 dracolines
  • 2 stormdrakes
  • 2x celetar balista
  • Everblaze comet

    On this setup sequitors delas MW when charged, can fight back after they die, can make a sqaud of 5 reapear somewhere else...etc. Tauralon is a tank, stormdrake brings utility and HUGE projection, translocation is a game winning ability....etc.


Against a khorne list:

  • reaper of vengeance:
  •  
  • Skarbrand
  • wrath of khorne bloodthirster
  • bloodthirster of unfettered fury
  • khorne deamon prince
  • bloodsecrator
  • slaughterpriest
  •  
  • 20 bloodletters
  • 5 flesh hounds
  • 10 bloodreavers
  • 5 wrathmongers


On paper very frightening, and it was, skarbrand may be fragile but he deletes pretty much everything he touches, the bloodthirsters are nice but not a huge threat for our tanky army and the rest is negligable.

the scenario was APEX PREDATOR, which was in the favor of my opponentn since only heroes can score and secure objectives in this scenario.

Long story short i won 24/17, tabled him and only lost the tauralon (with a pro double move skarbrand who then charged into my poor poor bird to delete him from existence) a couple of sequitors and my squad of evocators so here's my thoughts of sacrosanct:

Tauralon: great utility, he synergized the balistas and the drake thanks to his command trait so well!
He helped a lot for objectives and tactics and can tank very very well thanks to the drakescale armor and a couple of armor buff, very vulnerable to MW though. B+

Balistas: Very good unit, picking one is too little and 3 sounds like too much points for such specific niche (sniping low wound heroes) but they do that perfectly! combine this with a couple of MW here and there (which this army pumps A LOT) and no <6W heroes should survive long. A+

Sequitors: in this particular setup they deal MW when you charge them, then again when you kill them, they can fight back when they die on a 4+ AND they get a natural 5+ ward.
you can put an extra squad of them when needed with "call for aid", they are simply amazing. B+

Evocators/Dracoline: Evocators feels great with the current state of translocation (which is broken BTW) and play almost like annihilators with the extra layer of utility on the MW (you can charge and fight a sqaud and use your pile-in movement to "slide" arround the unit and snipe a character hidden behind with your zap zap).
Dracolines are better in every way, they punch with so many attacks that you will deal damages and the extra MW are very appreciated. They play the same as before and do it slightly better so i'd say they are pretty good. B+

incantor: cheap and have a scroll, not much else but he's really really appreciated! B+

Lord relictor: i hope they FAQ the translocation because right now it feels like cheating. other than that he's a beast, he's versatile and his ither spells are nice. As long as translocation stays the same he's an auto include! S

Stormdrake: the have everything, what else can i say? MW that AUTO HIT on a shooting attack, MONSTER keyword, a decent volume of rend 2 damage 2 attacks making them valuable in combat AND -1 to get wounded...... why would you not play a sqaud of these in every of your game? S

 

Stormdrake guards range attack is not an auto hit. 1-2 simply does nothing. 

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28 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Taking Curse over Translocation or Divine Light?

I think you have too much melee and not enough ranged support. I would run Annihilators or Protectors, both seems like an overcommitment.

What if I take one unit of Vanguard-Raptor instead of one unit of Anihilators ? 

For the prayer it's a mistake, I will take Divine Light

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4 minutes ago, Balthasar said:

What if I take one unit of Vanguard-Raptor instead of one unit of Anihilators ? 

For the prayer it's a mistake, I will take Divine Light

Because you have the stardrake as an anvil, I would take out the protectors and a unit of vindictors and replace them with 6x longstrikes and some aetherwings.

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Any thoughts on the list?

 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hallowed Knights

Leaders
Gardus Steel Soul (160)*
Knight-Incantor (125)**
Lord-Imperatant (175)*
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- General
- Command Trait: High Priest
- Artefact: Mirrorshield
- Prayer: Translocation

Battleline
5 x Liberators (115)*
5 x Liberators (115)*
5 x Vindictors (130)*

Units
6 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (480)*
- Reinforced x 1
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)*
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Aetherwings (65)**

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Vanguard

Additional Enhancements
Holy Command: Thunderbolt Volley

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 90
Drops: 2

 

Want to try to incorporate both Raptors and Grandhammers with Gardus whilst keeping a maximum of key supports. Played in Scions of course. (Find it difficult to justify Imperatant for a single unit)

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What are y'all running for heroes in a Knights Excelsior list? Obviously Lord-Relictor with Translocation is a must, I'm just not sure what to do for other heroes. LAoTaur? Knight-Incantor? LCoSD? Stormdrake Guard are great, of course, but for now I'm trying to build lists without them (as I have a feeling they're gonna be pricey $$ wise)

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17 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

EDIT: okay, I did a bit more testing of Castigators vs Judicators, and comparisons between their profiles.

For Castigators, rerolls deal more damage to anything with worse than a 3+ save pre-rend, it's a tie for 3+, and anything better the extra rend deals more. As soon as you introduce a +1 to hit, the rend is almost always better.

Ok, everything else in my post was fine but this is a glaring error I made! I very confidently didn't look up the ability because I thought I knew it, and it turns out I was wrong about it being rerolling hit rolls, it's a +1 to hit. Turns out the magic number here is actually 5+ pre-rend where the accuracy becomes stronger than damage. This is a bit of a shame for the unit because it does mean that 200 points of Castigators don't compete quite as well with the Crossbow Judicators as I thought they did. Still they keep up decently well, and of course if you're going against Malignant or Daemon heavy list you get some extra hits there too. Kinda wish it was reroll hit rolls though, that would make these guys pretty sweet and give them a nice niche of being super versatile.

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After listening to the podcast and agreeing with most of the points, I may pull Yndrasta from the list in my local league when we move up to 2000 points, and try something like this for the last 4 games:


Army Type: Scions of the Storm
Subfaction: Knights Excelsior
Battlepack: Pitched Battles
Points Limit: 2000 pts
General: Lord-Relictor
Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
Triumph: Bloodthirsty
Holy Commands: Unleash Thy Hatred

Core Battalions
 Warlord
 Magnificent Bonus: Artefacts of Power

  Lord-Relictor (General)
   Artefacts of Power: Mirrorshield
   Prayers: Translocation
   Points Cost: 145 pts

  Lord-Imperatant
   Artefacts of Power: Arcane Tome
   Points Cost: 175 pts

  Knight-Incantor
   Spells: Lightning Blast
   Points Cost: 125 pts

  Judicators with Skybolt Bows
   Reinforced: Once
   Points Cost: 400 pts

 Hunters of the Heartlands

  Annihilators
   Points Cost: 200 pts

  Annihilators
   Points Cost: 200 pts

  Retributors
   Points Cost: 235 pts

 Redemption Brotherhood

  Retributors
   Points Cost: 235 pts

  Castigators
   Points Cost: 105 pts

  Aetherwings
   Points Cost: 65 pts

  Castigators
   Points Cost: 105 pts

Total Points: 1990 pts

Any suggestions or feedback? I'm just using models that are currently available (to me)

Edited by Sleepa
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