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Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors


PJetski

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59 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Ballistas are 9 wounds for 140 points and will put out the same 2+/2+ Rend-3 shots every turn. They're cheap enough that you can fit them into many lists and they don't require any traits to be effective.

I think all 3 units (Bow Judicators, Longstrikes, Ballista) are S tier for their own reasons.

Well, Ballistas are a little less versatile than they sound because they almost have to be set up as a battery. They are even LESS mobile than the other two units which are already slow, and they can't issue themselves any orders so they need to have a nearby hero, even if you don't want the Ordinator (Which you should with them).

The biggest awkward part of Ballistas from my perspective, is how inefficiently a battery of them can use issued commands. you can only unleash hell on one, and you can only all out defense on one, so those abilities are basically unusable if your opponent charges you, because one ballista isn't likely going to wipe out a charging unit, and the enemy can just split attacks between two or more crews to play around All Out Defense. 

So they really feel a bit more limited to me than the other two units. I wish they didn't, because I have four and would love to feel better running them in my list. As it stands I may fill the last 140 points with one, and I may try the full battery again, but I'm not excited about it right now.

*Edit: They do probably survive longer when they actually get engaged by a flanking unit that isn't your opponent's primary hammer, but if they can't kill it in the following shooting phase, that's still a lot of points that your opponent essentially nullified for at least two of your shooting phases.

Edited by Sleepa
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2 hours ago, PJetski said:

You still need bodies for objectives, shooting to tear down screens, and the right support.

That’s why you run them in stormkeeps where redeemer units count as x3 and one unit of 10 vindictors is sat on an objective counting as 30.

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

 

Having to take the Menagerie Command Trait is an opportunity cost, because you give up another taking another Command Trait.

The Knight-Draconis is support. He is not worth 255 points without at least 1 unit of Stormdrakes in your list to take advantage of the breath double tap.

There is 0 opportunity cost with Menagerie Command Trait. Have you seen the other ones?

The Knight draconis is 5 attacks rend 3. He isn’t no slouch support unit.

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3 hours ago, PJetski said:

With a lance and on the charge, Drakes still do less damage than Concussors do all the time.

Somebody has a problem with math. Against Save 4+ Stormdrake Guard (with blades, lances are useless) and Concussors deals the same amount of damage (9,78). Drakes also can eat one model and they have better ranged attack.

Edited by Nozdormu
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7 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:

That’s why you run them in stormkeeps where redeemer units count as x3 and one unit of 10 vindictors is sat on an objective counting as 30.

There is 0 opportunity cost with Menagerie Command Trait. Have you seen the other ones?

The Knight draconis is 5 attacks rend 3. He isn’t no slouch support unit.

Rerolling Translocation or Geminids is pretty good, too

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I'm currently thinking something like this:

Krondys

Draconis

Incantor

2xSDG

1xSDG

2x5 Vindictors

2xChariots

Probably not tuned enough. But has a few hammer units with some solid objective holders/grabbers. Incantor was more for points, but a voidstorm is always nice on a crucial cast. 

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3 hours ago, PJetski said:

In the case of 6 Raptors, they're also very fragile (only 12 wounds). They need a screen

Unless you keep them at max shooting range with a LRelictor to translocate away ‍💫

 

That or you can run the Knight-Judicator to get the two gryph-hounds for protection against deepstrike and a screen. I don’t think the Kjudicator is good for the points, but I think he will combo well with a group of raptors.

Edited by Champasaur
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1 hour ago, Nozdormu said:

Somebody has a problem with math. Against Save 4+ Stormdrake Guard (with blades, lances are useless) and Concussors deals the same amount of damage (9,78). Drakes also can eat one model and they have better ranged attack.

I think we're seeing different results because I'm not testing against 4+ saves... I'm much more concerned with efficacy vs 3+ saves and 2+ saves with 5+ wards; Rend-2 with some mortal wounds is much more valuable than Rend-1 in those scenarios.

The Drake breath attack is strictly better than Dracoths, but on average the breath only does ~2 mortal wounds per model per volley over the Dracoths ~1 mortal wound. The 2 extra mortal wounds per shooting phase makes them slightly edge out Concussors in terms of damage in a single turn, but the Concussors do more if you have multiple combat phases (like in a typical round, or if your opponent wins priority).

The difference becomes quite meaningful when you get 4 drakes breathing twice per turn, which is why I really like the Draconis + 1x4 Drake core.

It seems like Stormdrakes cost more points purely for defense and utility, and that's fine. Again, my point isn't that Stormdrakes are a bad unit but that they're not the Uberunit that does everything the best and you shouldn't sell the rest of your Stormcast to buy more Stormdrakes like some players seem to think.

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10 hours ago, Volkmair said:

What are the current thoughts on Retributors vs Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers as I can see the extra 2 bodies potentially being useful sometimes?

Thinking about this myself. I was excepting Annihilators to jump up to units if 5 with the new tome, much like the first starter box for Age of Sigmar, but now it seems as if they’re going to stay at 3, which is a bummer. 
 

In regards to your question, from what I’ve seen of the internets the cost between the two units is similar, and getting two more bodies to hold an objective is an important factor I think. Maybe the great hammer option is better in that it’s a hard hitting fire-and-forget unit compared to the shield option where as a hold-and-capture option the Retributors higher number of models is better.   

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5 hours ago, PJetski said:

It seems like Stormdrakes cost more points purely for defense and utility, and that's fine. Again, my point isn't that Stormdrakes are a bad unit but that they're not the Uberunit that does everything the best and you shouldn't sell the rest of your Stormcast to buy more Stormdrakes like some players seem to think.

Agree with this, I think we want to include Stormdrake guard and a Knight, but the rest of the army will want to be built up from elsewhere.

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3 hours ago, Slaktor said:

Thinking about this myself. I was excepting Annihilators to jump up to units if 5 with the new tome, much like the first starter box for Age of Sigmar, but now it seems as if they’re going to stay at 3, which is a bummer. 
 

In regards to your question, from what I’ve seen of the internets the cost between the two units is similar, and getting two more bodies to hold an objective is an important factor I think. Maybe the great hammer option is better in that it’s a hard hitting fire-and-forget unit compared to the shield option where as a hold-and-capture option the Retributors higher number of models is better.   

if you look just at damage in combat, Retributors are a little better (about 15-16 wounds vs 13-14 wounds against a 4+ base save). But if you consinder the drop in and charge damage you can add at least about 4-5 dmg for annihilators.

Also the only reliable way to get Rets into combat is via translocation prayer (if it really doenst get FAQed), Annihilators with their 7 inch scions and charge rerolls are a lot easier to use.

So in summary i think that Rets are still too expensive, and i want to convert some into Annihilators with grand weapons.

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11 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

If I was building a Stormcast list right now I would definitely not go all-in on Stormdrakes for the sake of future-proofing. Part of what makes them so good is their point cost, which is the easiest thing to change about a unit.

GW logic, steamline most of the units by delating tons of additionals rules (basicly all our old units) slap 10 extra abilities on drakes... 

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29 minutes ago, Nizrah said:

GW logic, steamline most of the units by delating tons of additionals rules (basicly all our old units) slap 10 extra abilities on drakes... 

Yup they created way too much of an incentive to buy the new models (which people would have done anyway, this way REALLY uneccessary and was more harm- than helpful)

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Streamlining old overdesigned units is actually fine as long as there is some balance to the new stuff. Actually the internal balance of the book would be ok if Dragons wouldn't be so damn cheap. You could get 3 Longstrikes or for 50 pts more 2 dragons. You could get a big dragon but you could also get 4 small ones in a unit that could rally, could be used for move+shoot in the hero phase before moving and shooting again with some CA's. Thoose are hard hitters who are durable, fast, resistant to magic, can autoslay models surpassing their durability, have bonus actions and if you ask them nicely they will do your tax refund for you. As yourself: Would you play that unit of 2 if it was 100pts more expensive? Yes, most people still would. 

 

Edit:

With 2.0 and Sancrosanct Sequitors and Evocators were also just strictly better picks. This is something normal for gw. But actually from the new units I feel like people ignore most new stuff beside the Dragon Knights and Vindictors. The new Sword Guys and new Bow guys see little to no mention anywhere, the new Knight Judicator seems also not viable beside beeing a solid ranged unit. 

Edited by Charleston
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Looking at video reviews online I noticed Prosecutors with Javelins seem to not give Prime option to take a Trident. The prime rules says:

Add 1 attack to the Primes Storm Javelin.

So you either can not give Prime a Trident or if you do you do not get that extra attack. Seems like I will need to do some arms cutting on my prosecutors.

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1 hour ago, Ragest said:

My 4 fulminators just destroyed a Teclis :)

 

Relictor is must and I can’t see a reason to go with scions

Teclis is literally the weakest on the god tier models tho xD hes made of wet paper

 

Try destroy archaon or nagash....

Edited by Yondaime
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7 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys if I have to play max 4 monster in a 2000 pts game right? For exemple  dragon hero, 3x2 dragon guard and stardrake not allowed?

The new Dragons are Monsters, but not Behemoths in the list-building phase. They're one of the few Monsters with that distinction.

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13 minutes ago, Requizen said:

The new Dragons are Monsters, but not Behemoths in the list-building phase. They're one of the few Monsters with that distinction.

@Tizianolol

And if you have get the option to take behemoths as battleline, they lose the behemoth battlefield role and don't count towards that 4 behemoth limit anymore, as well.

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