PrimeElectrid Posted September 11, 2021 Share Posted September 11, 2021 6+ 5 4 3 2 2+1 2+2 Blades 3.96 2.6136 2.6136 2.169288 1.724976 1.3068 0.862488 0.444312 0.444312 Lances charge 1.98 1.3068 2.6136 2.6136 2.169288 1.724976 1.3068 0.862488 0.444312 No charge lances 1.98 1.3068 1.3068 1.084644 0.862488 0.6534 0.431244 0.222156 0.222156 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cadmachine Posted September 11, 2021 Share Posted September 11, 2021 Okay so Ive been struggling all night with this book, it was a real let down to begin with as we all expected to get the elite army we have wanted to play since 1.0 but we didnt. I think what we got, was an army based around the idea of "reasonable" battleline and support units that will be working to support and drive reallllly powerful units. The new Dragon Riders, Dragon Knights, Annihilators and Bastion are INSANE. The Dragon Riding dudes are going to break the current game wide open, they are berserk especially in certain Stormhosts. Bastion is going to present some rules problems, (does his heal work when he uses his ranged ability?) but he is an auto take for me and hammers buff and work with the dragons so that is a strong option. Meta is massively monster favoured atm too, so having units able to capitalise on both objective and battle tactic shinanigans is hawt, but in templars they can be immune to your enemies monsterous abilities too so that could also be very potent. I think ranged options are pretty potent, Ballista are disappointing but they will still be useable for certain armies. My idea so far is 3x5 Vindictors for objective capping. Knight Draconis Bastion 8 Drake Guard (however they split unit wise) and ranged option for ranged pressure and to distract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaskier Posted September 11, 2021 Share Posted September 11, 2021 7 minutes ago, cadmachine said: Okay so Ive been struggling all night with this book, it was a real let down to begin with as we all expected to get the elite army we have wanted to play since 1.0 but we didnt. I think what we got, was an army based around the idea of "reasonable" battleline and support units that will be working to support and drive reallllly powerful units. The new Dragon Riders, Dragon Knights, Annihilators and Bastion are INSANE. The Dragon Riding dudes are going to break the current game wide open, they are berserk especially in certain Stormhosts. Bastion is going to present some rules problems, (does his heal work when he uses his ranged ability?) but he is an auto take for me and hammers buff and work with the dragons so that is a strong option. Meta is massively monster favoured atm too, so having units able to capitalise on both objective and battle tactic shinanigans is hawt, but in templars they can be immune to your enemies monsterous abilities too so that could also be very potent. I think ranged options are pretty potent, Ballista are disappointing but they will still be useable for certain armies. My idea so far is 3x5 Vindictors for objective capping. Knight Draconis Bastion 8 Drake Guard (however they split unit wise) and ranged option for ranged pressure and to distract. Bastian's heal would not trigger on his Thunderborn ability as it's not an attack. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ledha Posted September 11, 2021 Share Posted September 11, 2021 5 hours ago, PJetski said: 15 double tap Judicators do enough damage to kill most big monsters in the game in a single turn, even a 2+/5+ ward 16 wound monster. They are nuts. Ballistae are good. Makes me want to try that WAR MACHINE list I made in Broken Realms Vigilors are underwhelming. I think the calculations doesn't really take in account the other thinks vigilors bring on the table, like the bonus to hit for the other units against who they shot as well as an actual melee profile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted September 12, 2021 Author Share Posted September 12, 2021 (edited) Organized my initial thoughts into a tier list. Tiers are ordered as units appear in the pitched battle profiles S - Easily fit into many lists or defines an entire list, high impact niche Celestar Ballistae Judicators (Bow) Vindictors Gardus Steel Soul Knight-Draconis Knight-Incantor Lord-Imperatant Lord-Relictor Krondys Lord-Celestant (Stardrake) Annihilators (Grandhammers) Protectors Stormdrake Guard Stormstrike Chariot Vanguard-Raptors (Longstrike) A - Strong units with that you can form a list around Liberators Lord-Arcanum (Dracoline) Lord-Arcanum (Tauralon) Lord-Commander Bastian Carthalos Lord-Ordinator Annihilators Dracothian Guard Fulminators Evocators (Dracolines) Retributors B - A somewhat specific but still useful niche Judicators (Crossbow) Aventis Firestrike Celestant Prime Lord-Castellant Yndrasta Dracothian Guard Concussors Dracothian Guard Tempestors Evocators Vanguard-Raptors (Hurricane) Vigilors Celestian Vortex C - Situationally useful niche, could be overcosted Astreia Solbright Stormsire's Cursebreakers Knight-Vexillor (Meteoric) Lord-Arcanum Vandus Hammerhand Karazai Aetherwings Dracothian Guard Desolators Praetors Vanguard-Hunters D - Significantly flawed, bad niche, maybe useful one day with a points drop Sequitors Knight-Arcanum Knight-Judicator Knight-Relictor Knight-Vexillor (Apotheosis) Knight-Vexillor (Stormbringer) Lord-Arcanum (Gryph-charger) Lord-Celestant (Dracoth) Lord-Exorcist Lord-Veritant Drakesworn Templar Castigators Decimators Prosecutors (Hammers) Prosecutors (Javelins) Vanguard-Palladors Dais Arcanum Everblaze Comet F - Don't use these Vanquishers Gavriel Sureheart Knight-Azyros Knight-Heraldor Knight-Questor Knight-Venator Knight-Zephyros Lord-Aquilor Lord-Celestant Neave Blacktalon Gryph-Hounds Steelheart's Champions The Farstriders Totals S Tier - 15 (20%) A Tier - 9 (12%) B Tier - 11 (15%) C Tier - 9 (12%) D Tier - 18 (24%) F Tier - 13 (17%) Big improvement over our last book but there are way too make units that they nerfed into oblivion like Heraldor and Azyros. Seems like an obvious push to buy new models... Im working on a podcast breaking down each of these rankings. After that I'll start working on something for our allegiance abilities and stormhosts Edited September 12, 2021 by PJetski 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeleFAZE Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 7 minutes ago, PJetski said: Organized my initial thoughts into a tier list. Tiers are ordered as units appear in the pitched battle profiles S - Easily fit into many lists or defines an entire list, high impact niche Celestar Ballistae Judicators (Bow) Vindictors Gardus Steel Soul Knight-Draconis Knight-Incantor Lord-Imperatant Krondys Lord-Celestant (Stardrake) Annihilators (Grandhammers) Protectors Stormdrake Guard Stormstrike Chariot Vanguard-Raptors (Longstrike) A - Strong units with that you can form a list around Liberators Lord-Arcanum (Dracoline) Lord-Arcanum (Tauralon) Lord-Commander Bastian Carthalos Lord-Ordinator Annihilators Dracothian Guard Fulminators Evocators (Dracolines) Retributors B - A somewhat specific but still useful niche Judicators (Crossbow) Aventis Firestrike Celestant Prime Lord-Castellant Yndrasta Dracothian Guard Concussors Dracothian Guard Tempestors Evocators Vanguard-Raptors (Hurricane) Vigilors Celestian Vortex C - Situationally useful niche, could be overcosted Astreia Solbright Stormsire's Cursebreakers Knight-Vexillor (Meteoric) Lord-Arcanum Vandus Hammerhand Karazai Aetherwings Dracothian Guard Desolators Praetors Vanguard-Hunters D - Significantly flawed, bad niche, maybe useful one day with a points drop Sequitors Knight-Arcanum Knight-Judicator Knight-Relictor Knight-Vexillor (Apotheosis) Knight-Vexillor (Stormbringer) Lord-Arcanum (Gryph-charger) Lord-Celestant (Dracoth) Lord-Exorcist Lord-Veritant Drakesworn Templar Castigators Decimators Prosecutors (Hammers) Prosecutors (Javelins) Vanguard-Palladors Dais Arcanum Everblaze Comet F - Don't use these Vanquishers Gavriel Sureheart Knight-Azyros Knight-Heraldor Knight-Questor Knight-Venator Knight-Zephyros Lord-Aquilor Lord-Celestant Neave Blacktalon Gryph-Hounds Steelheart's Champions The Farstriders Totals S Tier - 15 (20%) A Tier - 9 (12%) B Tier - 11 (15%) C Tier - 9 (12%) D Tier - 18 (24%) F Tier - 13 (17%) Big improvement over our last book but there are way too make units that they nerfed into oblivion like Heraldor and Azyros. Seems like an obvious push to buy new models... Im working on a podcast breaking down each of these rankings. After that I'll start working on something for our allegiance abilities and stormhosts I'm curious, what is it about the dracoline evocators that cause their rating to be as high as they are in your assessment? I'd like to focus on a list centered around them, but they still seem somewhat subpar. Is it the speed, high volume of attacks and mortal wound potential? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted September 12, 2021 Author Share Posted September 12, 2021 7 minutes ago, CeleFAZE said: I'm curious, what is it about the dracoline evocators that cause their rating to be as high as they are in your assessment? I'd like to focus on a list centered around them, but they still seem somewhat subpar. Is it the speed, high volume of attacks and mortal wound potential? Theyre just a solid hammer unit. Fast, re-roll charges, do a lot of damage and reach 2+/2+ pretty easily. They roll 3 dice per model when using Lightning Arc instead of 2, so they do a fair amount of mortal wounds too. They make good use of the Celestial Vindicators trait. There are some better damage dealers but Dracolines aren't bad. You can slot in 2x3 or 1x6 Dracolines with a LADrac pretty easily in a lot of lists without much opportunity cost. Ballistae are good for that same reason... cost efficient, impactful, and don't require many buffs to do their job effectively. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambert Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 Wait so am I missing something or could you translocate a squad of 6 Stormdrake Guard and then move+charge them in hero phase? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lengthster Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 49 minutes ago, PJetski said: Organized my initial thoughts into a tier list. Tiers are ordered as units appear in the pitched battle profiles S - Easily fit into many lists or defines an entire list, high impact niche Celestar Ballistae Judicators (Bow) Vindictors Gardus Steel Soul Knight-Draconis Knight-Incantor Lord-Imperatant Krondys Lord-Celestant (Stardrake) Annihilators (Grandhammers) Protectors Stormdrake Guard Stormstrike Chariot Vanguard-Raptors (Longstrike) A - Strong units with that you can form a list around Liberators Lord-Arcanum (Dracoline) Lord-Arcanum (Tauralon) Lord-Commander Bastian Carthalos Lord-Ordinator Annihilators Dracothian Guard Fulminators Evocators (Dracolines) Retributors B - A somewhat specific but still useful niche Judicators (Crossbow) Aventis Firestrike Celestant Prime Lord-Castellant Yndrasta Dracothian Guard Concussors Dracothian Guard Tempestors Evocators Vanguard-Raptors (Hurricane) Vigilors Celestian Vortex C - Situationally useful niche, could be overcosted Astreia Solbright Stormsire's Cursebreakers Knight-Vexillor (Meteoric) Lord-Arcanum Vandus Hammerhand Karazai Aetherwings Dracothian Guard Desolators Praetors Vanguard-Hunters D - Significantly flawed, bad niche, maybe useful one day with a points drop Sequitors Knight-Arcanum Knight-Judicator Knight-Relictor Knight-Vexillor (Apotheosis) Knight-Vexillor (Stormbringer) Lord-Arcanum (Gryph-charger) Lord-Celestant (Dracoth) Lord-Exorcist Lord-Veritant Drakesworn Templar Castigators Decimators Prosecutors (Hammers) Prosecutors (Javelins) Vanguard-Palladors Dais Arcanum Everblaze Comet F - Don't use these Vanquishers Gavriel Sureheart Knight-Azyros Knight-Heraldor Knight-Questor Knight-Venator Knight-Zephyros Lord-Aquilor Lord-Celestant Neave Blacktalon Gryph-Hounds Steelheart's Champions The Farstriders Totals S Tier - 15 (20%) A Tier - 9 (12%) B Tier - 11 (15%) C Tier - 9 (12%) D Tier - 18 (24%) F Tier - 13 (17%) Big improvement over our last book but there are way too make units that they nerfed into oblivion like Heraldor and Azyros. Seems like an obvious push to buy new models... Im working on a podcast breaking down each of these rankings. After that I'll start working on something for our allegiance abilities and stormhosts What makes the ballistae so good? They went up in points and do less damage than before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted September 12, 2021 Author Share Posted September 12, 2021 Just now, Lengthster said: What makes the ballistae so good? They went up in points and do less damage than before. Other shooting options got much more expensive while taking a defensive hit. Judicators are still only 10 wounds per squad, which is bad for a 200 point unit. Raptors are 6 wounds for a 240p unit (might be the worst points per wound in the game lol). Meanwhile Ballistae gained 2 wounds and only went up 30 points. Their single shot is greatly improved with better accuracy and higher Rend. Combos well with the Celestial Warbringers trait to re-roll a single dice per phase. Multishot profile is less maximum damage than before but much more consistent damage because it's more accurate. Versatility is what makes the Ballista S tier in my eyes. In some matchups its gonna pump Rend-3 D6 shots into 2+/5++ MONSTERS but in other matchups its gonna use its higher volume Rend-2 shots to clear screens for a hammer unit to get into melee. They don't need many external buffs like a lot of other units. You can efficiently buff 4 of them with +1 hit using one Tauralon or Ordinator, so you are free to use limited resources (commands, command points, holy commands, etc.) on other units. If you bring an Ordinator you also open the door to using allies/CITIES units like Gunhaulers, Gyrocopters, and more. It's the most versatile shooting unit in our arsenal and it doesn't require dumping a ton of points/commands/enhancements into double tapping with Raptors/Judicators so you can run it in all kinds of lists. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeleFAZE Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 What do we currently see as the most efficient model to utilize our prayers through? It seems that while our priests themselves are rather underwhelming as far as their scrolls are concerned the battletome prayers look quite effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted September 12, 2021 Author Share Posted September 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, CeleFAZE said: What do we currently see as the most efficient model to utilize our prayers through? It seems that while our priests themselves are rather underwhelming as far as their scrolls are concerned the battletome prayers look quite effective. Lord-Relictor gets +1 to chanting You can make him your general and take a universal command to re-roll chanting. 2+ rerollable translocation is disgustingly good 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colgado Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 Until (if) translocation is faq'd, I'm thinking 6 dracolines is a strong candidate to destroy a flank or key target. Unlike some of the other options (paladins) they're mobile enough after the drop to stay impactful. Right now I'm thinking that combo + either annihilators or dragons. You can fit some chariots or vindictors in for objectives too. Looks good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhamslam Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 8 minutes ago, Colgado said: Until (if) translocation is faq'd, I'm thinking 6 dracolines is a strong candidate to destroy a flank or key target. Unlike some of the other options (paladins) they're mobile enough after the drop to stay impactful. Right now I'm thinking that combo + either annihilators or dragons. You can fit some chariots or vindictors in for objectives too. Looks good. Dracs are all 1 inch reach so are foot evos, dont take killer units in multiples Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colgado Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, jhamslam said: Dracs are all 1 inch reach so are foot evos, dont take killer units in multiples That only means one won't get to attack initially. Units of 3 lessen the value of translocation and buffs. The 6th still counts for lightning arcs too. Edited September 12, 2021 by Colgado Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celestantpants Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 So krondys jaws wound on a +1...does this mean that while he is top profile he auto wounds? Or is it strictly to counter -1 to wound abilities? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhamslam Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 9 minutes ago, Celestantpants said: So krondys jaws wound on a +1...does this mean that while he is top profile he auto wounds? Or is it strictly to counter -1 to wound abilities? it means he wounds on 2+, 1 is always a fail But if your enemy has something that is -1 to wound ,he still wounds on 2+ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celestantpants Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 Cool, that's what I thought, thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loky100 Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 I'm super happy with the book. It look really solid for Stormcast. Just a little sadden that Evocators with staffs now have a 1" reach instead of 2" reach. Use to be great to have them behind a unit and hitting people with the staff. Hopefully its just a misprint. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feadair Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 First attempt at a list for comments: Hammerstrike, 2000 points. The army bears a resemblance to the Anvilstrike lists of 2nd edn, developed here. It only uses units that are already available now, so that it can be played out-of-gate. Hopefully I have got the points right - some of the screenshots that I have been using are pretty blurry. Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals - Stormkeep- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line- Holy Command: Thunderbolt Volley LEADERSKnight-Incantor (125)*- Spell: Thundershock Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (200)*- Mount Trait: Celestial Instincts- Spell: Thundershock Lord-Relictor (145)*- General- Command Trait: High Priest- Artefact: Mirrorshield- Prayer: Translocation UNITS6 x Evocators on Dracolines (560)*- 4 x Grandstaves 6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)* 10 x Vindictors (260)* 5 x Liberators (115)*- 1 x Grandweapon 5 x Liberators (115)*- 1 x Grandweapon CORE BATTALIONS*Battle Regiment 2000 POINTS The Vanguard-Raptors provide a long-range (30”) threat that takes out key targets and encourages the opponent to engage rather than stand back. Thunderbolt Volley gives them an ability to double-tap once per game. The Stormkeep Hammers of Sigmar battleline of Vindictors and Liberators is tough to crack and offers protection from enemy charges. [Not as solid as Aetherwings, but hopefully good enough.] Evocators on Dracolines, together with the Lord Arcanum on Dracoline constitute a powerful and fast hammer that can counter-charge or strike a weak spot independently. Due to its speed, it can relocate after charging rather than being left standing where it hit. Knight-Incantor is there to unbind key spells. Lord-Relictor is able to translocate reliably the Vanguard-Raptors for better shooting, the Evocators on Dracolines for a key charge, or a battleline unit for objective-capping. The entire force is an one-drop in a single Battle Regiment. The army will go first if there is an excellent opportunity to decimate the enemy through shooting and charging. Otherwise, it will go second. Views? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champasaur Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 I have mixed feelings about this, but mostly positive. Points going up across the board so shortly after the GHB 2021 is definitely demoralizing. Having to cut & trim a list twice in a few months is just depressing. I really like some of the abilities and new warscrolls. Obviously the Stormdrake Guard & Knight-Draconis seem nuts (almost too good). But I really enjoy that we have a good emphasis around our battleline redeemer units, with sound buffs to make them hard to remove. I honestly can't believe the re-worded translocation made it into the book. Can't really see a point in taking Scions of the Storm over Stormkeep when you have such a good teleport prayer that allows you to move after. New holy commands are also sweet. I really dislike the attempt at streamlining that results in warscrolls with only one ability. Just feels bad in combo with the increased points cost. I honestly expected more from Judicators for the 60 point increase from before GHB 2021. I know some of the tournies (@Nizrah I'm looking at you) are saying how good they are, but man I just wanted something more flashy than an extra attack. This really stretches across all of the ranged options. Such high costs for only 10 wounds (6 wounds for Raptors). I think Vigilors look so cool, but it will be hard to justify taking more than a unit of 5 to get the +1 hit off for the really killer units (Judicators, Protectors, Dragons). I also think we have a really good tool against big monsters (especially Gargants). I mean LC Bastian's Thunderborn ability plus double shooting Judicators is a dead mega-gargant, if not very close to one. Plus we will get a lot more value out of Unleash Hell with 15 Judicators *eyes* 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scurvydog Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 Not sure Bastian is worth it for 300 pts, sure he hits ok, and commands is nice and all, but I think the Prime might bring more utility to most lists at almost the same points, getting a 4+ ward really upped him a lot and we will see him even more as an ally and in many cities lists too. While many things got better, the book does indeed raise the question "why take this over Stormdrake Guards" or "why take this hero over a 255 pts Knight Draconis". They got everything you could want from this edition, fast flying monsters, with decent damage, saves and ranged attacks, with the option to move and charge in the hero phase, as a workaround to the most powerful tools such as redeploy and unleash hell. I think the Stardrake celestant got play too, nice that he makes the Stormdrakes battleline too. His ranged attack is quite nice, a bit more reliable melee damage and with the young star mount trait + command trait, he can be at -1 to be hit and to be wounded. Having that trait with -1 to be wounded in melee to ALL monsters in the army is just crazy good. This also dips into the big dragons, as that trait in a combo with their -1 attacks against them, makes them more durable than "just" 18W 3+ save might indicate. As for which big dragon, Karazai obviouisly does more outright damage, more attacks and rend makes him a decent beatstick. Not too sure if we compare him to a gatebreaker in Sons of Behemat as a golden standard of big smash stick monster. I think the more flexible choice that can decide games more often is Krondys, sure he does less combat damage, but with +3 to cast and if you bring a stardrake nearby, that is +4 to cast! Give him Starfall for example which can prevent enemy units from pile-ins, his own spell is also super flexible, you can reduce ranged attacks, perhaps halve the output of 15 bow snakes? You can reduce rend by 1 on a big scary and cast a mystic shield with +4, ensuring whatever needs to be tanked is tanked, or reverse reduce saves by 1, opening up those save stacking enemy monsters for your counter punch. I just see him as the superior piece on the board to allow adjusting tactics at least. Karazai is perhaps a bit more fun with just smash face and looks a bit cooler imo, but I think I will be building Krondys first at least. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Scurvydog said: Karazai is perhaps a bit more fun with just smash face and looks a bit cooler imo, but I think I will be building Krondys first at least. I don’t get how they can be pointed equally. The damage difference between the two isn‘t that great and one is a awesome magician. I expected Karazai to be 545 and Krondys to be 600 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scurvydog Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 4 minutes ago, JackStreicher said: I don’t get how they can be pointed equally. The damage difference between the two isn‘t that great and one is a awesome magician. I expected Karazai to be 545 and Krondys to be 600 Yea Karazai just lacks a little something extra, although especially against single targets where the tail only gets 1 attack, he does far better against enemy monsters in a 1v1. I think his special rule might be undertuned a bit, he only gets the +1 attack if he kill a monster or hero, that is a bit steep and the other bonuses are largely unimportant. Heal 1 wound if you kill an entire unit? well ok I guess... Now if we had something to represent him being a scarred and gnarly dragon of war, he could have had a 5+ ward or a scaly skin like rule added to the -1 attack rule, making him more tough, as staying power really is a premium in this edition. A 5+ ward might make me take him over Krondys for sure, but ofc that will not happen now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeElectrid Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 Krondys Knight draconis Knight draconis Stormdrake guard Stormdrake guard Stormdrake guard 1965 points 4 drops Ok Gw if you insist 🤷♂️ 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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