Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors

[CommissarRotke]

1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

Interesting. I build some Liberators out of vindictors as well for my Celestial Vindicators  (they wield board and sword though)

pics :D?

[CommissarRotke]

3 hours ago, feadair said:

Scions lists have seen much more success than Stormkeeps.
Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar has been by far the most popular stormhost.
Grand Strategy: Hold the Line and Beast Master have been the top choices.
Triumphs: Inspired has been by far the most popular triumph

Leaders: Lord Relictor and Knight-Draconis are at the top, but Lord-Commander Bastian and Knight-Judicator have also proven reasonably successful. This surprised me. I for one did not see Knight-Judicator coming at all, and I would have expected Knight-Incantor to find a place in most lists, which it did not.

Command Traits: High Priest and Master of Magic have both proven popular.
Artefacts: a tie between Mirrorshield and Arcane Tome.
Spells: Celestial Blades is where it is at.
Prayers: Translocation, to the surprise of no-one.
Mount Traits: Celestial Instincts is at the top, but quite a few have selected Thunderous Presence.
Holy Commands: Thunderbolt Volley.

Units: Longstrikes, Stormdrakes, Vindictors, Liberators, and Fulminators have all been very popular, and Aetherwings have seen quite a bit of play too. Surprisingly few Grandhammers, and not many Judicators either. 

Hardly anyone has seen success with Endless Spells or Allies.
Battalions: Battle Regiment has been chosen more often than all the other options combined.

How much does the data change if you remove SDG, Knight-Draconis, and Fulminators from it? I appreciate the data collection but can't help feel like it's skewed because of WAAC listing. (If Stormkeeps are useless for SDG/Fulm, then does that really mean Stormkeep is bad, etc etc.)

[feadair]

16 minutes ago, Mattrulesok said:

I'd be curious to know which units made it into 4+ win lists the least but still made it in at least 1?
 

Here is the raw data:

LEADERS
Aventis Firestrike 5
Celestant-Prime 9
Gardus Steel Soul 8
Karazai 4
Knight-Draconis 34
Knight-Heraldor 3x1
Knight-Incantor 9
Knight-Judicator x5, 1, 1, x5, 2, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1
Knight-Vexillor w Apotheosis Banner 1
Lord-Arcanum 1
Lord Arcanum on Gryph Charger 1
Lord-Arcanum on Tauralon 4
Lord-Castellant 3
Lord Celestant on Dracoth 1
Lord Celestant on Stardrake 1
Lord-Commander Bastian 14
Lord-Imperatant 5
Lord-Relictor 42
Vandus Hammerhand 1
Yndrasta 3

UNITS
Aetherwings 3, 3, 3, 3, 2x3, 3, 2x3, 2x3, 3, 3, 3, 2x3
Annihilators 3, 3
Annihilators with Grandhammers 3x3, 3x3, 3, 2x3
Dracothian Guard Concussors 2+2, 2+2
Dracothian Guard Desolators 2+2
Dracothian Guard Fulminators 4, 2+2, 2+2, 4, 2+2, 2+2, 2, 4, 4, 4, 4, 2+2, 2+2, 2+2, 2+2, 2, 2, 4, 4, 3x2, 4, 2, 2x2
Dracothian Guard Tempestors 4, 4, 4
Farstriders 3, 3
Gryph Hounds 6, 6, 6
Judicators with Bows 2x5+10, 10, 15, 10, 15, 5
Judicators with X-Bows 10+5+5, 
Liberators 2x5, 5, 3x5, 3x5, 2x5, 5, 3x5, 2x5, 5, 3x5, 2x5, 2x5, 5, 2x5, 2x5, 5, 5, 5, 2x5, 2x5, 3x5, 2x5, 5, 2x5, 5
Prosecutors w Hammers 3
Prosecutors w Javelins 3
Protectors 2x5
Retributors 5
Stormdrake Guard 4+2+2, 4, 4x2, 4+2+2+2, 4, 4+2+2+2, 4+2+2+1, 4x2, 4, 2, 4, 3x2, 2, 4, 4+2+2, 2, 4+2+2+2, 3x2, 3x2, 4, 3x2+1, 3x2, 4x2, 4+2+2, 4, 3x2, 3x2+1, 3x2, 4, 2, 4+2+2+1, 3x2, 4, 4, 5x2, 4, 2x2, 3x2, 3x2, 4, 2, 3x2, 3x2+1
Stormstrike Chariot 1, 5x1,
Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrikes 6, 6, 6, 6+3, 6, 6+3, 6,6+3, 6,6+3, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6+3+3, 6, 6+3, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6
Vanquishers 10
Vindictors 5, 10, 3x5, 10+5, 5, 10+5, 5, 10, 5+5, 6x5, 4x5, 2x5, 2x5, 5, 3x5, 2x5, 5, 2x5, 4x5, 2x5, 3x5, 4x5, 2x5, 3x5, 2x5
 

[feadair]

2 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

How much does the data change if you remove SDG, Knight-Draconis, and Fulminators from it? I appreciate the data collection but can't help feel like it's skewed because of WAAC listing. (If Stormkeeps are useless for SDG/Fulm, then does that really mean Stormkeep is bad, etc etc.)

Fair point, and lots of other lists are viable. It is just that some lists have seen more success to date. (If you look at my post history, many of the lists can be found there, including Stormkeep ones.)

[feadair]

1 hour ago, Marcvs said:

here's hoping that when the nerf-hammer falls for Fulminators (thank you Living city ) and Stormdrake guards, other units get a point reduction or a bit of a rework.

Also, the command trait and artefact part is really telling about the abysmal state of our BT's choices (other than mirrorshield).

personal feeling, but it's a bit depressing how I envy the (competitive) list variety of battletomes with half (or less) the number of warscrolls we have

Yes, the internal balance could be better.

[Mattrulesok]

Really interesting.

There are a few units I'm surprised have seen such little play. 3 or less for the chariot, Tempestors, farstriders and prosecutors. (Plus I think gryph-hounds are excellent).

 

There's definitely still plenty of play in this army outside of the 3 overpowered warscrolls.

 

Also nice to see someone do well with Vandus, I played him in a 1 Dayer on the weekend and he felt well worth his points but a little like he's the right guy in the wrong meta

Edited April 13, 2022 by Mattrulesok

[feadair]

4 minutes ago, Mattrulesok said:

Really interesting.

There are a few units I'm surprised have seen such little play. 3 or less for the chariot, Tempestors, farstriders and prosecutors. (Plus I think gryph-hounds are excellent).

 

There's definitely still plenty of play in this army outside of the 3 overpowered warscrolls.

 

Also nice to see someone do well with Vandus, I played him in a 1 Dayer on the weekend and he felt well worth his points but a little like he's the right guy in the wrong meta

The worst in my view is the almost complete lack of Sacrosanct units - especially given that I have painted at least 3k worth of them!

[Mattrulesok]

2 minutes ago, feadair said:

The worst in my view is the almost complete lack of Sacrosanct units - especially given that I have painted at least 3k worth of them!

I also played evocators on dracolines in last weekend's tournament, they definitely did not feel worth their points, all 3 games they just got melted by another unit, they did some damage but not enough to justify 280

 

I did win a 4 game tourney with castigators, they're actually very good as a hybrid shooting/blocking piece. They pair well with other pieces in the book.

 

Sequitors just seem so overpriced so I have no idea why I bought another 10 recently😅

[Dogmantra]

23 minutes ago, Mattrulesok said:

(Plus I think gryph-hounds are excellent).

I've been thinking this lately, although admittedly only theorycrafting as I don't have a full unit. They're the highest wound count per point in SCE and their attack profile isn't terrible for what they are. I would honestly love to run a couple of Lords Relictor with Curse & Divine Light, get a ward from Hammers of Sigmar, and just spam the heck out of Gryph Hounds. Quantity over Quality. I don't think that's anywhere approaching the best way to play them but I think it'd be fun.

How have you been using them?

[Mattrulesok]

3 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

I've been thinking this lately, although admittedly only theorycrafting as I don't have a full unit. They're the highest wound count per point in SCE and their attack profile isn't terrible for what they are. I would honestly love to run a couple of Lords Relictor with Curse & Divine Light, get a ward from Hammers of Sigmar, and just spam the heck out of Gryph Hounds. Quantity over Quality. I don't think that's anywhere approaching the best way to play them but I think it'd be fun.

How have you been using them?

They're a mobile screen with a decent number of wounds but even with their lack of save they are deceptively survivable because they just flat out leave combat, they are a screen that if you opponent doesn't choose to fight first retreats and continues to screen.

 

They are also excellent at stealing objectives because they move deceptively quick. 9" movement is good but 9 + 7 charge + 3 pile in + 6 retreat = 25" move your opponent wasn't expecting.

 

Also warning cry can be really useful against the right opponent for controlling board space.

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, CommissarRotke said:

pics :D?

 

[CommissarRotke]

@JackStreicher holy moly those look great!! now my question is, how expensive were those sword bitz--looks like the Prime has a Knight Draconis sword?

1 hour ago, Mattrulesok said:

Also warning cry can be really useful against the right opponent for controlling board space.

Dang, so the unit itself kept waning cry while it was removed from the hero buddy versions? Could've sworn waning cry got limited badly in 3.0

Edited April 13, 2022 by CommissarRotke
c rap looks bad as asterisks

[JackStreicher]

11 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

 holy moly those look great!! now my question is, how expensive were those sword bitz--looks like the Prime has a Knight Draconis sword?

They were free. I own two boxes of the Dragon knight (I build mine with swords) and those swords were leftovers.

[CommissarRotke]

I hadn't planned on getting the SDG anytime soon, if they end up in a Battleforce with Vigilors and Vanquishers, then I'll know I have conversion options  

[Fuxxx]

14 hours ago, CommissarRotke said:

@JackStreicher holy moly those look great!! now my question is, how expensive were those sword bitz--looks like the Prime has a Knight Draconis sword?

Dang, so the unit itself kept waning cry while it was removed from the hero buddy versions? Could've sworn waning cry got limited badly in 3.0

How often does it really come up? I have few enemies summoning stuff and if they do a table is big and most of the time it's in spaces further away... I mean they have to keep 9" away anyways which leaves a 3" corridor that's scary. I mean I love the little critters (a bit less since not half my heroes get a free one for objective grabbing) but does it do a lot of them?

Ps: just realized they now always have 4 attacks, sweet.

Oh and while at it: started my stormdrake as a fast 2-day project before vacation. It'll need another accent on the gold, a wash to tie the claws and teeth together and it's rider but so far I'm happy:

Let's see how having a monster changes up my games

[Erdemo86]

Can you Build Krondys with Karazais Stance? Stranding on Ruins but with krondys Head and Armor? Does someone know? 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Erdemo86

[Mattrulesok]

On 4/14/2022 at 5:06 PM, Fuxxx said:

How often does it really come up? I have few enemies summoning stuff and if they do a table is big and most of the time it's in spaces further away... I mean they have to keep 9" away anyways which leaves a 3" corridor that's scary. I mean I love the little critters (a bit less since not half my heroes get a free one for objective grabbing) but does it do a lot of them?

Ps: just realized they now always have 4 attacks, sweet.

Warning cry is not the reason I play gryph-hounds, it's more of a bonus. It rarely even matters and I'm not sure Ive ever had it triggered BUT against some armies it creates powerful space control. I'm 2-0 vs Living Cities (one of which was final game top table at a local tournament) because with the correct set-up and my Mirrorshield stardrake bookending the setup there is no where to come in.

So no, warning cry doesn't do much but against the right lists it can severely impact their game plan.

 

Also as a side note please appreciate that gryph-hounds have a champion and therefore can issue CA's

Edited April 16, 2022 by Mattrulesok

[Jaskier]

I tried out a block of 4 Stormdrake Guard against a friends' Maggotkin; I chose to go second and used their hero phase move and charge to get stuck in immediately to contest one of the three objectives. Despite playing against an army that would theoretically ruin them via attrition with mortal wounds, they stayed in that one combat until round five - where the two surviving dragons proceeded to zoom across the field. 

They really are strong as hell.

[feadair]

This list went 5-0 in a 22 player tournament in the UK. 

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
– Stormhost: Astral Templars (Scions of the Storm)
– Grand Strategy: Beast Master
– Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Knight-Draconis (300)*
– Generaly
– Command Trait: Master of Magic
– Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
– Mount Trait: Celestial Instincts
– Spell: Thundershock
Lord-Castellant (155)*
Lord-Relictor (145)*
– Prayer: Translocation

Battleline
4 x Stormdrake Guard (680)*
– Drakerider’s Lance
– Reinforced x 1
15 x Judicators with Skybolt Bows (600)*
– Reinforced x 2
5 x Liberators (115)*
– Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Holy Command
– Thunderbolt Volley

Total: 1995 / 2000

Notably the list has Judicators instead of Longstrikes - balance update at work?

Edited April 19, 2022 by feadair

[Rachmani]

1 hour ago, feadair said:

This list went 5-0 in a 22 player tournament in the UK. 

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
– Stormhost: Astral Templars (Scions of the Storm)
– Grand Strategy: Beast Master
– Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Knight-Draconis (300)*
– Generaly
– Command Trait: Master of Magic
– Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
– Mount Trait: Celestial Instincts
– Spell: Thundershock
Lord-Castellant (155)*
Lord-Relictor (145)*
– Prayer: Translocation

Battleline
4 x Stormdrake Guard (680)*
– Drakerider’s Lance
– Reinforced x 1
15 x Judicators with Skybolt Bows (600)*
– Reinforced x 2
5 x Liberators (115)*
– Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Holy Command
– Thunderbolt Volley

Total: 1995 / 2000

Notably the list has Judicators instead of Longstrikes - balance update at work?

I‘d say: Battle Line at work.

[Dogmantra]

Could be that they're battleline, but you can fit a reinforced longstrikes (480 points) and a minimum size unit of liberators (115) in the same space as 15 judicators, so it's not the only thing.

[readercolin]

I would say that it is more about diversifying damage output.

If you are running raptors + dragons, you have a lot of damage 2 rend -2 attacks.  That is... fine... however you run into a few problems.  For example, if you run into a thunder lizards list, then all that damage 2 goes to damage 1, while the damage 1 ones remain the same.  Additionally, if you run into ethereal units (ex. be'lakor), rend -2 doesn't mean all that much and you would rather have more rend -1 attacks.  Finally, the judicators are more resilient (30 wounds vs 12 wounds) and benefit better from things like rally.

Overall, I would say that you could run it either way, but this person made the decision to go judicators and it worked for them.  They might have been able to get the same results with longstrikes, or they might have done worse with longstrikes (can't really say that they could have done better than a 5-0 though), but if you have longstrikes and not judicators, you could pretty easily run the same list and swap the judicators out for longstrikes + liberators and call it a day.

[Rachmani]

On a more serious note, I think Thunderlizards are a real reason to switch.

[Adammck66]

Been thinking of getting 2 Warcry Stormcast boxes to complete my Dominion force.

Yndrasta

Lord Imperatant

Knight Incantor

10 Vindictors, 2x5 Vindictors

3 Praetors, 3 Shield Annihilators, 2x3 Hammer Annihilators.

 

I know its pretty grim and no ranged, but for casual play is this fine? And any idea on a stormhost? Can potentially replace Yndrasta.

 

Thanks.

[CommissarRotke]

Obviously going to want to do Scions with that.

I can tell you after buying the Warcry box that unless you really really want 6 hammer annihilators, just go with one. Having ten extra Vindictors and DOUBLE the Warcry cards is extremely meh to me; you're not going to do anything with the 2nd cards and people who want them will want the whole box itself.

I still wish they'd put 5 Vigilors in the box with the Annihilators.