Petition for more fan creativity

[NauticalSoup]

23 hours ago, Gaz Taylor said:

So I think how GW have acted so far, has been quite tame and shows they do care about the community.

It's always surreal seeing people attribute human behaviours like 'caring' to a corporation that is by all reports driven completely by profit motive.

I know our collective memories are extremely short, especially here on TGA, but the game Age of Sigmar only exists because GW explicitly doesn't care about the community, and has no qualms about obliterating your hobby if they believe it would serve their interests.

It's just... I don't think that's even harsh, or unfair. That's literally the point. Publicly traded companies report to the shareholders, and only to the shareholders. Customers are just the market from which they extract value.

[Zappgrot]

1 hour ago, NauticalSoup said:

It's always surreal seeing people attribute human behaviours like 'caring' to a corporation that is by all reports driven completely by profit motive.

I know our collective memories are extremely short, especially here on TGA, but the game Age of Sigmar only exists because GW explicitly doesn't care about the community, and has no qualms about obliterating your hobby if they believe it would serve their interests.

It's just... I don't think that's even harsh, or unfair. That's literally the point. Publicly traded companies report to the shareholders, and only to the shareholders. Customers are just the market from which they extract value.

Word. Companies are about makeing money. That's the beginning and the end of it.  Expecting moral behaviour from a company is the height of folly.  

[AccendantEvincar]

23 hours ago, stratigo said:

Okay, I keep seeing this as a defense.

 

Do people not know how youtube works?

Alfabusa has to take a proactive step because if GW DO CnD him, the entire channel gets torched and everything is gone. The whole channel. Taking a proactive stance is the only chance he has to the rest of the channel unless you people think he can afford a years long legal battle with a billion dollar corporation.

GW knows what a chilling effect is.

 

These comparisons always fall apart because a company is not one man making art in their garage.

 

Kantian ethics is a bad system to base your ethics around and is just used to justify making things worse for the have nots and protecting the haves.

 

Hmmm, Sarouan trying to cast doubt on the legitimacy of the tools to petition for change using a website created by a non profit created by a sleazy corporate frontman?

 

The irony.

 

Do some digging and you'll find that your website is created by dudes funded by the tabacco industry to petition for deregulation in America's food industry. The whole group exists to advocate for deregulation of business. EG, it's right wing corporatists BS, so not a huge shock it would be your source.

 

I welcome anyone to look up Richard Berman, the man behind CORE (which is behind the so called activism facts.com)

 

So, two things.

 

First, Alfabusa isn't in the UK

 

Second, the patreon system can be used as a vendor, but often isn't. He's making money, but not selling. Not sure if this would be a meaningful distinction

 

GW is evil in the same way most corporations are incentivized to do evil. Evil as defined in a utilitarian sense of doing more harm then good.

 

What GW does to its employees is evil. But it's a common evil we as a society look away from because we are so used to it. But that doesn't make it not evil

 

 

 

 

Basing your ethics around Utilitarian ideology is better how? Putting the rights or happiness of the group above the individual is a dangerous way of thinking mate.

Calling ALL corparations evil is just laughable frankly. Some do some moraly objective buisness we all know that. Id like to stress this next point however....there not all like that. Are GW a shining beacon of a selfless entity that just has our best interests at heart? No. Are they as some like to say, your friend. Certainly not, they are a public company, as you well know their goal is to sell a product that people want. We want it they make it and sell it, its that simple. 

Human history is littered with actual EVIL acts, just look back at the last 100 years and its awful the capacity as a species we have to commit atrocities on each other, the Holocaust, the culling of the Kulaks in the Soviet Union, Mao just in general. The list goes on and on. To call a company like GW evil is why i stated...laughable.

I get the feeling that, not just from this post but others as well, that ideology clouds your thinking, i used to be just the same, a more objective view will make you feel much better i imagine. Im only saying this because what you posted is honestly something i would of said myself a few years ago. 

My apologies for the ramble but the misuse of words pains me lol.

In regards to GW and their ip i honestly havnt thought enough about it to formulate an opinion yet. Ive been playing with GWs toy soldiers since 1995. I havnt bought direct from GW for a long time apart from if i really needed some paint. Simple reason is its cheaper elsewhere. At the end of the day they want to protect their product as best they can BUT they wouldnt be a company without the customers. Like i say havnt really thoigjt enough about it to decide.

Have a good day everyone

 

[stratigo]

1 hour ago, AccendantEvincar said:

Basing your ethics around Utilitarian ideology is better how? Putting the rights or happiness of the group above the individual is a dangerous way of thinking mate.

Calling ALL corparations evil is just laughable frankly. Some do some moraly objective buisness we all know that. Id like to stress this next point however....there not all like that. Are GW a shining beacon of a selfless entity that just has our best interests at heart? No. Are they as some like to say, your friend. Certainly not, they are a public company, as you well know their goal is to sell a product that people want. We want it they make it and sell it, its that simple. 

Human history is littered with actual EVIL acts, just look back at the last 100 years and its awful the capacity as a species we have to commit atrocities on each other, the Holocaust, the culling of the Kulaks in the Soviet Union, Mao just in general. The list goes on and on. To call a company like GW evil is why i stated...laughable.

I get the feeling that, not just from this post but others as well, that ideology clouds your thinking, i used to be just the same, a more objective view will make you feel much better i imagine. Im only saying this because what you posted is honestly something i would of said myself a few years ago. 

My apologies for the ramble but the misuse of words pains me lol.

In regards to GW and their ip i honestly havnt thought enough about it to formulate an opinion yet. Ive been playing with GWs toy soldiers since 1995. I havnt bought direct from GW for a long time apart from if i really needed some paint. Simple reason is its cheaper elsewhere. At the end of the day they want to protect their product as best they can BUT they wouldnt be a company without the customers. Like i say havnt really thoigjt enough about it to decide.

Have a good day everyone

 

I mean, the only things that can be evil are like, three of the biggest mass murders in human history? Not very much raises to the level of the holocaust or the GLF mate. If that's the metric for evil, then there's not much that is evil huh?

 

 

I don't think you understand utilitarianism though. It's a difficult philosophy to follow and people often use it to justify evil under the idea that it will be good eventually, if you ignore the externalities. But that's the thing, utilitarianism is abou thte externalities, not just intended effects. Intentions don't matter, results do, all the results.

 

An individual's happiness can outbalance a group provided the satisfaction outways a collective suffering or sadness (this is dramatically difficult to measure). But there's also no such thing as an atomized individual. Every action taken will ripple through a community. A happy individual will make their loved ones happy as well. 

 

But also, the group DOES usually outweigh an individual, because satisfying one individual and one individual only usually comes at the cost of a group, and, like, you tell me why that is Moral? 

 

Utilitarianism is about doing good and minimizing harm.

 

And companies are about maximizing profit and ignoring everything else. It's why people are literally dying in fires on the west cost. No hyperbole, corporations have literally killed people in a fire. People are burning to death because of the results of global warming right now. And this is because of the profit motive. People dying in a fire makes more money then changing oil infrastructure for oil companies. So they lobby for more people dying in a fire.

 

GW's evil is of course less, but, well, they have the same motivation and press a smaller suffering onto their employees (and fans) economically. And this is evil.

 

 

[The Red King]

1 hour ago, AccendantEvincar said:

Basing your ethics around Utilitarian ideology is better how? Putting the rights or happiness of the group above the individual is a dangerous way of thinking mate.

Calling ALL corparations evil is just laughable frankly. Some do some moraly objective buisness we all know that. Id like to stress this next point however....there not all like that. Are GW a shining beacon of a selfless entity that just has our best interests at heart? No. Are they as some like to say, your friend. Certainly not, they are a public company, as you well know their goal is to sell a product that people want. We want it they make it and sell it, its that simple. 

Human history is littered with actual EVIL acts, just look back at the last 100 years and its awful the capacity as a species we have to commit atrocities on each other, the Holocaust, the culling of the Kulaks in the Soviet Union, Mao just in general. The list goes on and on. To call a company like GW evil is why i stated...laughable.

I get the feeling that, not just from this post but others as well, that ideology clouds your thinking, i used to be just the same, a more objective view will make you feel much better i imagine. Im only saying this because what you posted is honestly something i would of said myself a few years ago. 

My apologies for the ramble but the misuse of words pains me lol.

In regards to GW and their ip i honestly havnt thought enough about it to formulate an opinion yet. Ive been playing with GWs toy soldiers since 1995. I havnt bought direct from GW for a long time apart from if i really needed some paint. Simple reason is its cheaper elsewhere. At the end of the day they want to protect their product as best they can BUT they wouldnt be a company without the customers. Like i say havnt really thoigjt enough about it to decide.

Have a good day everyone

 

"At least it's not the holocaust" is an... interesting line of defense lol

[RuneBrush]

+++ MOD HAT +++

Ahem, just a gentle nudge back onto some semblance of the discussion please folks

[Sarouan]

4 hours ago, stratigo said:

And companies are about maximizing profit and ignoring everything else. It's why people are literally dying in fires on the west cost. No hyperbole, corporations have literally killed people in a fire. People are burning to death because of the results of global warming right now. And this is because of the profit motive. People dying in a fire makes more money then changing oil infrastructure for oil companies. So they lobby for more people dying in a fire.

GW didn't put anyone on fire, so far I know. But I guess you will say they could have done it ? Like they "could have gone after Alfabusa" ? Or they "could go after battle report and lore channels next" ?

 

4 hours ago, stratigo said:

GW's evil is of course less, but, well, they have the same motivation and press a smaller suffering onto their employees (and fans) economically. And this is evil.

See, that's the problem here. People like you who design a thing you don't like and label it as "evil". Not because of their actual acts, but of the way you perceive them.

This whole story about Alfabusa is exactly the point. And how you personnally attacked me because I pointed things like that petition operating on a dubious site shows really the danger of your "Evil and Good" point of view.

Corporations are evil => GW is a corporation => GW is evil

What's next ? People defending GW => these people are evil ? Maybe get rid of these people as well as "evil" GW ?

No nuance, no care for the facts. Evil is evil, good is good. And who's the one saying who's good and who's evil ?

Problem here, is we can't debate with you if you keep having that way of thinking. You're not here to debate about facts or truth. You're here to tell your view is the only one that is Good and all opposing you are Evil. Since you decided corporations are evil and thus GW is evil, nothing GW does can't look as being good. Because they're evil.

See the issue, now ? If you want to see something evil, you will find justifications to label them evil.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Sarouan

[xking]

I think people should stop using the word evil so much. People use that word for anything nowadays, People need calm down and have a seat. At least treat the word more seriously or be more nuanced.

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by xking

[stratigo]

5 hours ago, Sarouan said:

GW didn't put anyone on fire, so far I know. But I guess you will say they could have done it ? Like they "could have gone after Alfabusa" ? Or they "could go after battle report and lore channels next" ?

 

See, that's the problem here. People like you who design a thing you don't like and label it as "evil". Not because of their actual acts, but of the way you perceive them.

This whole story about Alfabusa is exactly the point. And how you personnally attacked me because I pointed things like that petition operating on a dubious site shows really the danger of your "Evil and Good" point of view.

Corporations are evil => GW is a corporation => GW is evil

What's next ? People defending GW => these people are evil ? Maybe get rid of these people as well as "evil" GW ?

No nuance, no care for the facts. Evil is evil, good is good. And who's the one saying who's good and who's evil ?

Problem here, is we can't debate with you if you keep having that way of thinking. You're not here to debate about facts or truth. You're here to tell your view is the only one that is Good and all opposing you are Evil. Since you decided corporations are evil and thus GW is evil, nothing GW does can't look as being good. Because they're evil.

See the issue, now ? If you want to see something evil, you will find justifications to label them evil.

Did you just not pay attention to the whole discussion of utilitarianism.

 

I mean, I get most people don't really think about ethical frameworks to approach actions and go with their inbuilt gut socialized into them by their community. But, like, strive to rise above it mate.

 

If you want to argue on my level you have to do one of two things.

 

1. Try and convince me that Utilitarianism is a bad ethical system and an alternative is a better one

2/ Try and convince me that on a balance, GW is producing more happiness, pleasure, good, than suffering, sadness, or harm.

 

The first is nearly impossible, you'd have to probably have a degree in philosophy to even approach the argument. I have put a lot of thought in ethical frameworks.

 

The second is far more possible, though if you don't think utilitarianism is a proper ethical framework, then it probably becomes fruitless to try in argue in a framework you don't believe. Most people kind of reflectively fall back onto some level of egoistic utilitarianism, where they seek the most good for themselves and their immediate community, albeit often they are very very wrong what is good even for their community.

 

I am using a easily recognizable ethical framework here. This isn't hard. Corporations are evil is not the axiom of utilitarianism. Corporations causing more suffering then benefits is just my perception of the facts for an entity like GW. If you have facts supporting you, by all means, counter them. Heck I'd love to hear that most GW employees are in fact paid much better then Hewitt and several others I am aware of. I'd love to know that the animators now working for GW will be looking at paychecks in excess of what they could make independently, with the passion and creativity they brought to the IP.

 

Also, I attacked you because you are using a far right source that does things like, and I quote from its website, say "Biden Nominee’s Eco-Terrorism Problem Isn’t Going Away". It is an utterly unreliable source and your use of it indicates either ignorance of it and unwillingness to do about 5 minutes worth of googling (seriously, just follow the sources back. It's easy and you should always do it), or a belief they are a valid source and an attempt to stealth in what would likely be an extremely unpopular ideology here. This is the egg on your face mate, don't use these kinds of sources. Make sure the sources you are using are reliable before you use them.

 

2 hours ago, xking said:

I think people should stop using the word evil so much. People use that world for anything nowadays, People need calm down and have a seat. At least treat the word more seriously or be more nuanced.

 

People probably wouldn't get it if I started using the words pleasure and pain seriously in discussions of ethics (which is what utilitarianism defines itself on). And might think it has something to do with sex even, which would be funny, but it doesn't.

[Sarouan]

33 minutes ago, stratigo said:

Did you just not pay attention to the whole discussion of utilitarianism.

Why would it matter here ? This topic isn't about utilitarianism. It's about the petition against GW because of the recent buzz around Alfabusa.

Yet you don't care about that and goes about a whole explanation why you say GW is evil. Even though all you said are nothing like facts GW did something wrong against Alfabusa (not surprising, since the guy was never contacted by GW and simply decided to put his channel on hiatus on his own).

Even though, using a doctrin as your only way to see what is good and what is bad (ethics, thus) isn't especially making you "the universal good guy" here. It just shows you see the world only by this way...and thus are biased because of that.

 

33 minutes ago, stratigo said:

Also, I attacked you because you are using a far right source that does things like, and I quote from its website, say "Biden Nominee’s Eco-Terrorism Problem Isn’t Going Away". It is an utterly unreliable source and your use of it indicates either ignorance of it and unwillingness to do about 5 minutes worth of googling (seriously, just follow the sources back. It's easy and you should always do it), or a belief they are a valid source and an attempt to stealth in what would likely be an extremely unpopular ideology here. This is the egg on your face mate, don't use these kinds of sources. Make sure the sources you are using are reliable before you use them.

Since when Wikipedia is a far right source ?

As for the other link, I didn't look into details about the rest they're claiming. The wikipedia link does say Change.org also has some critics and issues because it's a profit based corporation but still use the .org that's normally reserved to non-profit organizations.

Thought it was important to say since the petition is only available on this site and people may not have look what is change.org doing with your personnal information.

 

Also...shows something important about you : you don't care about the content of my post, but are looking for reasons to attack me as a person. Maybe because you can't refute the content itself and it looks like I am criticizing / doubting something you're fine with, because you think GW is evil ? Maybe you're looking for reasons to "prove" I'm a bad person so it's fine to attack me instead of debating with me ?

 

There are a lot of overreactions about this topic and I think it's more about beliefs than facts recently. It should be more about facts, IMHO, because we need something objective as common base for a true debate. Feelings don't give a good ground for that, because that's always subjective...

Edited August 6, 2021 by Sarouan

[RuneBrush]

+++ MOD HAT +++

Last warning here.  Can we stop the conversation on ethics & philosophy please.  If there's nothing left to add to the original topic we'll lock the thread.

[Sarouan]

In other news related to this topic, Alfabusa released an update on his patreon and it's interesting to read :

 

Quote

In regards to this massive deluge of Patreon support...

This was not expected, at all.
I didn't even link the Patreon in the description or anything like that.
I really did think Patreon would drop due to a lack of general interest and I had made my peace with that.
But this mindsmashing, humongous boost is going to help the channel vastly in the coming months and I just want you to know how much I appreciate it.

However, some pessimism still lingers.
I cannot see this peak ever being reached again.
As far as I can see, this summit was reached due to something stronger than any content I could produce, which is you acting on your principles.
The Patreon will drop from here in the coming months without doubt.
But, I now have enough confidence to assume it will not drop beneath the amount of pledges I had prior to this for a long time.
So, yknow, I am beyond happy with the situation!!

Despite this, though, I am going to say that another thing I had already made peace with was getting a part time job. I am still going to do that.
My family has been living on a median swedish wage of about 28% of the channel's income (this includes taxes). The rest has always been spent on the project.
And so, even now, I am not planning on increasing my salary.

In fact, the current idea is that if I can work 150% for a while (50% part time, 100% this), I will both be mitigating risks in case the Patreon sinks or straight up gets removed somehow by improving prospects for myself outside of the video creation sphere, and I will be able to get a good procent of my personal paycheck for the family from outside the project so my wage will not affect the financial stability of the project.
It'll also feel good to do something that isn't just youtube for the first time in 7 years to be completely honest with you.

With that, I also want to inform you that I am going to start hiring people full-time to help with our future projects.
So far, I have only hired people as either working with me by the hour or as freelancers paid by commission, but with this, I want to start up the process of properly hiring people.
I have already pestered a fuckre who I will pay good money to both do art and help animate for hours and hours while I stand behind him and tell him he is doing thing wrong. Exciting.
We will be running a demo week with him at some point in the future to see how things go, and then our hope is that he can come work with me in-person.
Like in a real job thing. Wow.


Now, in regards to future projects...

We're still mulling over our options as to settings we want to explore.
We are having a lot of fun doing it honestly, it's really livening up the Production Chat and creativity is running high.
I would absolutely bet on us telling you what we'll be moving onto in the near future. The one thing we have without doubt decided is that we are going for several settings and not just one, so as to avoid digging ourselves too deep into another niche within a niche.
Even when we return to TTS, we want to make sure we have our feet firmly planted in several other licenses so we know we can stand firm no matter what.

What's also worth mentioning is that I have always been the Creative Lead for TTS. For some of the future projects I will be relinquishing that role and allowing the other lead writers, SpeakerD and Earndil, to take the reins on some projects.
I will still be very much involved in the creative process, of course, I just won't be the one writing the plot-bible basically.

 

FINAL THOUGHTS...

This weekend has honestly been supremely horrible all in all and I have not been doing well whatsoever.
I hate being in the spotlight, I hate being 'the current controversy', I hate complaining about my troubles on youtube.com and I hate how my ****** primate body has responded to internet things like it would've responded to the ever-prevailing anxiety of predators outside my immediate field of view out in the deep forest.

But now I feel a lot better, in no small part thanks to you.

I am excited to delve into work again in new light.
It will take some time to get everything into order again.
This is us starting from scratch as far as story goes, and as I have said in the past, this is going to be an experimental phase for us.
But if you've established anything this past weekend, it is your patience and your understanding.

I will keep working, I will keep you updated and I will confer with you along the way.

Next update, I am hoping to potentially show you some proof of concept stuff for future projects, whatever form they may take.

But that will be that for this time.

Until next time, have a good one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He confirms a few things :

- Before, he didn't hire people full time, but only by the hour / by commission to freelancers. Makes sense.

- Before, he used 28% of the Patreon / channel revenues for him (including taxes) and the rest was put in his videos. He intends not to increase his own salary with the new amount. Fair enough. Also confirms he considers it a job and thus is certainly declared for that in his country.

- He confirms that with the new amount on Patreon, he intends to now hire people full-time and focus more on his videos thanks to this : looks more like a real business.

- He's totally aware of using other licenses in his work and making money out of it. He now wants to be sure to use those he's ready to stand for (meaning he wasn't doing that before, since he used GW's IP anyway...?).

- He also confirms he totally didn't expect things going that way and was actually thinking people would leave his patreon because he stops working on Warhammer. It seems it was a huge shock to him. He's also aware of why so many people came to his patreon. He do expect the numbers to drop in the following months, which is very wise.

- He sure isn't comfy with all the attention he suddenly got with all the buzz around. And he's right to be. Means he didn't think his video would be starting all of this.

 

So...the guy looks very fine. He actually wants to develop his channel in a whole new light. In the end...maybe GW helped him by updating their guidelines.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Sarouan

[Kodos der Henker]

The current situation is not about what GW is doing now, but what GW has done in the past

So people stop their projects because of what might happen based on past experience

those new to GW cannot understand this, don't know how bad the situation was for the community back than (were forums deleted all posts with direct quotes from the rulebook in fear of GW shutting them down)

point is GW has always been very strict but those new were not aware and thought they are happy about community content

in addition, a lot of people out there like the background but not the prices and are just playing the games because they get the rules for cheap and models for less from illegal sources (and are pissed if those are taken down because GW took away "their" game as they don't feel to pay for it)

[Sarouan]

16 minutes ago, Kodos der Henker said:

The current situation is not about what GW is doing now, but what GW has done in the past

That's what bothers me, people focus too much about that.

It's good to be aware of what GW did in the past. But it's also important to remember a corporation isn't a single hivemind entity...it's actually made of lots of humans, who each have their own views and that these humans aren't eternals.

When GW "did" these things in the past, it's important to note people actually leading to these actions may not be in the corporation anymore (and actually aren't, if you're thinking about the infamous Chapterhouse legal fight).

So now people judging GW with the new buzz around are mostly fearmongering based only on these past actions, but they don't look at the current facts happening so far.

To them, people working at GW contacting some fan animators and ask them to remove sensible links to their patreons or offering them a job is "coercition" and "demonitization". But that's not actually what happened. Then they say GW is going after battle report and lore channels next, or modders.

About modders, we have some noise currently because Radious has made a vague statement about his Total War Warhammer mod saying he was "asked respectfully" to remove his links to patreon and reward levels in relation with Warhammer IP, but he oddly never says who asked him that. But it was enough for people to say it was GW, even though they have no proof.

And that's what I'm not fine with : people distorting facts for their own interests or beliefs, and trying to mislead other normal people into their own overreactions. Like Youtubers making videos doing that and exhorting their fanbase to file a complaint letter to GW saying they'll stop buying any of their products unless they change their guidelines / current stance. Even if the "current stance" they were told by these Youtubers they have may not be the real one...

Edited August 6, 2021 by Sarouan

[Kodos der Henker]

Community related uprisings are always "strange", a company doing what they are doing but no one cares but than they do something that is not worth mentioning and earn a shitstorm as all the rage stored is unleashed

For GW, they live in general from the goodwill of the community to accept and tolerate all their mistakes and paying a premium price
But if GW is doing something that might be legally fine and being just a standard process, but destroys the goodwill of some parts of the community (we accept your mistakes and you let us do our fan-film/mods/3D prints), this can get ugly as there is nothing worse than people who think they are right, for the wrong reasons (there is so much you can blame GW, no need to make things up, yet feeling personally attacked and people do strange things)

[ArkanautDadmiral]

I noticed he posted a couple more videos.

Would he not need to remove all of the Warhammer content from his channel based off his GW worries?

Does the fact he’s said he’s not making anymore change anything? Can GW not still come after him because all the videos are still up?

I guess what I’m asking is, what security does he believe he has in regards to GW coming after him now, that he didn’t last week?

All the videos are still up, still generating revenue, is this not an issue now he’s said he’s not making more?

[Overread]

GW likely knows from past experience that

 

1) Internet "uprisings" often last a few days at most. They CAN be damaging if people start targeting actual staff/people with hate mail, but if its mostly grumbling in vidoes and on forums and such it will burn itself out even if nothing changes.

2) Actual sales are different to "online veto sales". GW sees the actual sales data not just one or two people not buying for a month. So they can measure the impact (if any) on sales directly. 

3) Much of this will fizzle on its own once Warhammer + lands. Assuming Warhammer+ is priced, marketed, managed well etc...

4) There's a segment of the news online that focuses on the negative and lives ot whip up a "storm" online. Sometimes the most powerful way to fight that is to not play the game. Ignore them and keep doing what you're doing. All the rumour and theory and possible "evil" things that those sites talk about all become nothing if they never actually happen. 

 

[EMMachine]

The thing is, it is said multiple times that nobody except the IP owner should make money with it. The fanmade stuff as well as painting videos, battlereports etc is basicly free promotion for the products.

GW could either spend money for promotion, not knowing if the money is spend in a good way or wasted or they don't have to pay money because the community makes it, but after it is still some sort of work the company profits it should be allowed that the content creators can get money with ad revenue or if people want to support the creator.

In worst case the IP rules will hurt GW because with less free promotion they will earn less money (because the content creator doesn't have the money to spent it on more GW products, or people that spend money because of the free promotion)

And no, I don't have a youtube channel (only an account with 0 videos) and I basicly make my form of promotion with helping a wiki spending money on nearly every book that is released.

[Beliman]

5 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

The thing is, it is said multiple times that nobody except the IP owner should make money with it. The fanmade stuff as well as painting videos, battlereports etc is basicly free promotion for the products.

Well, technically, it's not just making money, it's using their IP without "permission". Only a fair use of GW's IP have a legitimate defense in front of the court.

I'm totally OK with the fan-made content, they are the soul of the hobby, and I hope that GW understands that. It's in their hands to do it the right way, even if the law points out the wrong way.

[stratigo]

8 hours ago, ArkanautDadmiral said:

I noticed he posted a couple more videos.

Would he not need to remove all of the Warhammer content from his channel based off his GW worries?

Does the fact he’s said he’s not making anymore change anything? Can GW not still come after him because all the videos are still up?

I guess what I’m asking is, what security does he believe he has in regards to GW coming after him now, that he didn’t last week?

All the videos are still up, still generating revenue, is this not an issue now he’s said he’s not making more?

 

He's trying to avoid a CnD to preserve the channel. Removing all the content would defeat the purpose and he may as well forge forward until GW tells youtube to burn it all down.

 

He's defending what he's already created by promising to not make any more. 

 

GW could still go at him, and youtube would comply. I think they'd lose in court because it is parody and GW would have to prove harm, but TTS didn't compete with any products GW made, until WH+. That's actually the crux of what people are missing is that GW before WH+ didn't have a legal argument about a product they produce being harmed by animations, because they didn't create animations or other television. Now they do (well soon), so they can make this argument.

 

8 hours ago, Overread said:

GW likely knows from past experience that

 

1) Internet "uprisings" often last a few days at most. They CAN be damaging if people start targeting actual staff/people with hate mail, but if its mostly grumbling in vidoes and on forums and such it will burn itself out even if nothing changes.

2) Actual sales are different to "online veto sales". GW sees the actual sales data not just one or two people not buying for a month. So they can measure the impact (if any) on sales directly. 

3) Much of this will fizzle on its own once Warhammer + lands. Assuming Warhammer+ is priced, marketed, managed well etc...

4) There's a segment of the news online that focuses on the negative and lives ot whip up a "storm" online. Sometimes the most powerful way to fight that is to not play the game. Ignore them and keep doing what you're doing. All the rumour and theory and possible "evil" things that those sites talk about all become nothing if they never actually happen. 

 

I have little hope for WH plus because of how much a trashfire their 40k app is and what I know of the internal chaos revolving around that mess. I hope Brandt can figure it out, but GW is trying to cut paying for quality here and rely on, uh, "passion". Again. Not sure that will fly with programmers. GW might have to buck up and offer real money to get a real product and not a trashfire

 

I suspect they are offering the animators they brought on board peanuts and relying on their passion for the hobby too. Because that is just... what GW seems to do. They're like most entertainment companies in this.

 

 

[GrogTheGrognard]

To get more on topic I want to bring up a company that is much bigger and has in my opinion a much better stance on fan works. Wizards of the Coast.

WotC stance on fan works is simply that it can't have their trademarked logos, and it has to be free. Now let me explain the free part. WotC allows fan content creators to make money by being on platforms like Youtube or Twitch and even have things like Patreon accounts. The content you produce simply can't require you to be a Patreon supporter to receive it. This means that fan animations, fan fictions, even fan rules (as long as they use the open game license) are not only encouraged, but WotC may even use those fan works themselves! WotC seems to desire fan content and it has paid off for them in dividends. 5th edition DnD has grown to become a massive RPG system and more people are drawn in regardless of actually playing the game or not. I've seen artists who never play the RPG buy DnD rulebooks for artwork to inspire themselves.  In contrast I have never seen anyone buy a 40k or AoS rulebook for inspiration unless they actually play the tabletop game. If GW wants more fans, and more fan creativity they should start following WotC's lead and make fans want to create for them.

 

I mean who honestly expects any new fan animators to be both inspired by AoS/40k and decide to start animating fan works in the AoS/40k setting? I could see people being inspired by what's on W+, but I doubt any of them would start by animating in that setting and would instead focus on a more welcoming community like, The 9th Age, Overwatch, WotC, or even Battletech. Then, even if those animators get good enough to join W+ why would they? The community they would have built would be with a completely different franchise rather than the AoS/40k community.

[MitGas]

1 hour ago, GrogTheGrognard said:

To get more on topic I want to bring up a company that is much bigger and has in my opinion a much better stance on fan works. Wizards of the Coast.

WotC stance on fan works is simply that it can't have their trademarked logos, and it has to be free. Now let me explain the free part. WotC allows fan content creators to make money by being on platforms like Youtube or Twitch and even have things like Patreon accounts. The content you produce simply can't require you to be a Patreon supporter to receive it. This means that fan animations, fan fictions, even fan rules (as long as they use the open game license) are not only encouraged, but WotC may even use those fan works themselves! WotC seems to desire fan content and it has paid off for them in dividends. 5th edition DnD has grown to become a massive RPG system and more people are drawn in regardless of actually playing the game or not. I've seen artists who never play the RPG buy DnD rulebooks for artwork to inspire themselves.  In contrast I have never seen anyone buy a 40k or AoS rulebook for inspiration unless they actually play the tabletop game. If GW wants more fans, and more fan creativity they should start following WotC's lead and make fans want to create for them.

 

I mean who honestly expects any new fan animators to be both inspired by AoS/40k and decide to start animating fan works in the AoS/40k setting? I could see people being inspired by what's on W+, but I doubt any of them would start by animating in that setting and would instead focus on a more welcoming community like, The 9th Age, Overwatch, WotC, or even Battletech. Then, even if those animators get good enough to join W+ why would they? The community they would have built would be with a completely different franchise rather than the AoS/40k community.

Great post! I think that GW should also try to coexist with fan creations. It‘s understandable that they do not want direct competition but in the end the TT community is -much like the RPG community- a very creative one, if not one of the most creative ones. It‘s quite natural that this love doesn‘t only result in cool minis, paintjobs or terrain but also stories that want to be told. I‘m not seeing GW as a bad guy here personally - they need to make money and protect their universe. Only thing I can fault is that the people working there apparently don’t earn enough but that is another topic. I understand if they kill off projects that interfere with their own plans but if they found common ground like in your example, all of us would benefit indeed! 

 

 

 

[Sarouan]

21 hours ago, MitGas said:

I think that GW should also try to coexist with fan creations.

They already do. Why do you think some channels do receive books / boxes in advance so that they can do reviews at the time of the pre-orders ?

 

As for Wizards of the Coast...well, here are their policies : https://company.wizards.com/en/legal/fancontentpolicy

It's not just "allows them". It must be accessible for free - no money asked to access the content in any shape nor form. It's not just "not being a Patreon supporter". Well, that and the other conditions, of course (they don't allow using their musics or videos in the fan content, for example, nor using their logos or trademarks).

It's actually restrictive in more than one way.

Oh, and don't forget to read the FAQ. WoC explicitly forbids you to use some of their IP without a written permission from them. So no, you can't just do whatever you want.