Petition for more fan creativity

[EMMachine]

32 minutes ago, ArkanautDadmiral said:

I think the trend will continue that creators who are on top of their game will get offered partnerships too. It’s just a shame that when one of them does accept they’re suddenly the enemy in many’s eyes.

I don't know the story about Sodaz, but my guess is the following. I think the community has the point of view, that fanmade stuff has more passion and higher quality than stuff of a company that looks how to get most profit with least effort, and people either have the option to consume the content for free (generating ad revenue, or support the creator actively with patreon, and people only started with patreon because it is way to easy to be demoneytized on youtube).

So being hired by GW means a drop of quality and putting the content behind a pay wall with subscription (where the money most likely goes entirely to shareholders while the creators are underpaid). It simply feels better when Creators actually get the money instead of people that don't care about the product at all.

Most of the time subscriptions feel like scams. I mean, the Warscroll Builder has higher quality for free than the Armybuilder inside the AoS and 40k App combined which are behind a paywall.

 

[RuneBrush]

38 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

Most of the time subscriptions feel like scams. I mean, the Warscroll Builder has higher quality for free than the Armybuilder inside the AoS and 40k App combined which are behind a paywall.

At the risk of being a grumpy sausage, I find many subscription services fall short of the mark.  Sadly we live in an age where subscriptions have taken over that "buy once, own it for life" approach that existed at one point.

[EMMachine]

5 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

At the risk of being a grumpy sausage, I find many subscription services fall short of the mark.  Sadly we live in an age where subscriptions have taken over that "buy once, own it for life" approach that existed at one point.

I feel the same in that case + most of the time you are getting easy into a subscription and it is hard to get out again.

The worst case for Warhammer+ could be that they make stuff in the first month to get the subscribers in and than do 10 months nothing still getting their money because of the subscription.

I have the same feeling with music. I liked it that I had the option to buy music on Google play for google Music (with the option to download them as mp3), and I had no problem paying 30-50€ for multiple music albums during a month. It felt like supporting the music group. Than Google stopped using Google Music and switched to Youtube Music. Where you get some essential functions (like playing the music in the Background) only with a 10,-€ Subscription each month. I don't even use Youtube Music in the browser (if I want to listen to music on youtube I use youtube). They switched a good product for an inferior one.

[Beastmaster]

„Own it for life“ is not very useful in a game where only the latest edition is played anyway. As much as I hate to admit it, for a game like Warhammer a subscription system does make sense (or free rules, but that’s a different topic).

[EMMachine]

2 minutes ago, Beastmaster said:

„Own it for life“ is not very useful in a game where only the latest edition is played anyway. As much as I hate to admit it, for a game like Warhammer a subscription system does make sense (or free rules, but that’s a different topic).

Well, I can still read the lore from my 6th Edtion WHFB Armybooks, 4th Edition 40k Codizes or 1st Edition AoS Battletomes. Something I can't most likely do with a subscription model. We don't even know if Warhammer+ still exists in 5 Years and if it is going down their is no equivalent value for the money you have spent for that subscription anymore.

Rules and points for free would most likely be working model because GW would most likely be able to make enough money with models and Lorebooks (I mean D&D is still existing as well and you are not forced to buy every Campaignbook from them) + the rules and points would be easier to update.

[Beliman]

6 hours ago, EMMachine said:

generating ad revenue, or support the creator actively with patreon, and people only started with patreon because it is way to easy to be demoneytized on youtube

Remember that making a "parody" is treated as a Fair Use of others IP rights. You are not the owner of original IP.

There are other uses that don't need permision, like education,  news/press, research, etc... but remember that this doesn't give you any IP rights, it's all about the fair use: making a joke, teaching something, etc..., and the court will take case by case if it's necessary.

Another example, a french humorist used a "monster-mascot-pet-whatever"  without permission as his main image to announce their show (posters, banners and other medias). The 3D model was not used as a joke and it was proceed as undue appropiation.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Beliman

[The Red King]

5 hours ago, ArkanautDadmiral said:

I don’t think painting videos or battle reports will be targeted at all and right now there’s 0 evidence that any have been.

Why do people feel the need to preemptively complain about something that has not and may not happen?

I signed the petition, I would like TTS to keep going but let’s not ignore the fact GW did not even contact TTS. TTS are the ones that decided to stop.

On the painting channels and battle report channels. They’re all posting videos and comments about the bad, bad GW but they’re the ones with ability to bring about some change. They should put their money where their mouth is and make more content that’s not GW centric, push some other game systems, introduce their audiences to other options, try to grow the communities of GWs competitors. Once GW sees the money flowing somewhere else you’re likely to start seeing some change.

Be the change you want to see.

I disagree with the stance you've come to but I also think you may have misunderstood what I was asking. 

 

I didn't say "they are attacking battle reports and paint channels" I said " If you feel they are in the right to 'defend' their IP from such things as TTS, then why do you not think they would be right to attack painting videos that include just as much if not more GW product (be it physical or IP) while being less transformative a work."

 

As to your stated opinion I think of it this way, GW owns the table that people like TTS are building their entire house of cards on. Gw didn't tell him directly "hey we can take this table whenever we want" but instead have come over to stand by the table and grabbed the legs. Their stance is directly responsible for making his continued work an untenable position and I personally would rather have TTS and other great and creative fan works over more corporate control. Again I don't want to sound conspiratorial but the only person who benefits from this move is GW's effort to sell warhammer+ and that's scummy and detrimental to the community which are kind of the heart of the whole game.

[Clewzy]

I am finding the online outrage a bit over the top. My partner works in brand enforcement and I can tell you GW lets hell of a lot slide compared to other companies. A certain large toy brand wont stand for any unauthorised monetising of their product.

Start complaining when GW sends cease and desist orders on every unauthorised how to paint/battle report/lore discussion/commission painting website and video channel.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Clewzy

[GrogTheGrognard]

17 hours ago, ArkanautDadmiral said:

What did GW do to Sodaz? They offered him a partnership which he initially accepted. Then he got a tonne of hate from the community for doing so and changed his mind, turned down GWs offer and moved away from the Warhammer community because of the harassment.

GW did exactly nothing to TTS either… they made no contact at all with TTS… 

To date, how many animators has GW actually sent a c&d to?

GW caused this fiasco by removing content that was already available for free and trying to put it behind W+. This obviously led to backlash from the community, especially when GW put out their new IP guidelines that state. NO MORE FAN ANIMATIONS. Like at all, not if you do it for free, make it clear that it's not GW, no more fan animations. Bringing up SODAZ is to show that this hurts creators on both sides. Those who don't join up with GW TTS, and those who do join up with GW SODAZ. If GW had left the old videos alone and instead just stated that new videos were coming out on W+, and that fan animators could do whatever as long as it's free there would have still been backlash but it would have been less since other fan animators would and could make free fan animations.

GW started this conflict between themselves and the fans, and that conflict hurts people on both sides.

 

16 hours ago, Overread said:

To date they've not sent any takedown requests. They've only made an offer to work for them or take monetizing down on any fan works. Which honestly is a very fair move. They are not removing fan content in the least, simply reinforcing that they own copyright over the IP material and that fan works must be just that - fan works without any earning attached to them. But if the creator wants to they can choose to earn from the video by working for GW and then their video will appear on Warhammer + - and lets face it Warhammer + is likely to get a huge viewership from GW fans alone. 

In fact GW was very lenient allowing fan works to profit for as long as they have done and its only the rise of youtube paid ads and services like patreon which have even changed the fanworks region to something that can casually be made to turn and income and even profit. Normally most fan videos are like fanfiction - its fun hobby stuff that never earns a penny

Allow me to quote GW's IP policy for you.

 

Fan-fiction, hobby books and magazines
Individuals may write their own stories, hobby books and magazines based on our characters and settings, but these must:

• not include text, artwork or imagery copied from any official Games Workshop material
• be non-commercial, with no money being received or paid. This includes all forms of fundraising activity, and generation of any advertising revenue
• not be publicly distributed, except for no-charge digital distribution
• make it clear that they are unofficial, without using any Games Workshop logos, and include the word ‘unofficial’ prominently on the front cover
• not be prejudicial to the goodwill, reputation or integrity of Games Workshop or its intellectual property

This seems to be like what you're saying that you can make something as long as it's clearly not offical GW and it's for free. Now allow me to quote their specific line on FAN ANIMATIONS.

• Fan-films and animations – individuals must not create fan films or animations based on our settings and characters. These are only to be created under licence from Games Workshop.

So literally GW IP policy is no fan animations anywhere that isn't W+. NOTHING, you can't do fan animations if it's free, clearly not officially GW, or anything else. You either get on W+ or you can just not make fan animations of AoS or 40K.

 

Edited August 4, 2021 by GrogTheGrognard

[RuneBrush]

40 minutes ago, GrogTheGrognard said:

GW started this conflict between themselves and the fans, and that conflict hurts people on both sides.

Not really.  The point where some people felt they could make money out of GW's IP without repercussions was the start of the "conflict".  GW's IP rules have always had a clause in it saying you can't profit from GW's IP - this isn't new.

Most of the people who created fan films for free have been contacted by GW and asked to work on stuff for Warhammer+ - not exactly the sign of a machiavellian plot by GW to do over people who made animations in the past.  In the case of Sodaz the fact that he got so much flak from the community is awful and anyone who hassled him should be ashamed of themselves.

[Kadeton]

1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

Not really.  The point where some people felt they could make money out of GW's IP without repercussions was the start of the "conflict".  GW's IP rules have always had a clause in it saying you can't profit from GW's IP - this isn't new.

I'd go at least one step further back, to the point where GW asserted control over the use of their IP well in excess of what the law entitles them to. Restricting fair use and derivative works goes strictly against the spirit and the letter of IP laws.

They can totally get away with doing that, because the legal protections against doing so are (deliberately) weak and the legal system exists primarily to defend capital. But that's nevertheless where I would say this conflict "started".

[Enoby]

There was an interesting point raised on Reddit about the situation on a more pro-GW side. I'm not sure how much I agree, but it does bring up some interesting points at the least:

"I feel somewhat guilty for kicking up more dust just as it was starting to settle down, but after having had a chance to think on the situation, I did want to raise some points I felt were important for the sake of this sometimes quite polarized community. For a while now, two camps have been going to war on behalf of people they don't know and both sides have produced some incredibly toxic behaviour while the majority just silently watched as their beloved source of pictures for inspiration turned into a Youtube comment section. So why am I contributing to further dragging out this drama? Because I don't get the impression that anything has actually been resolved, and this is bound to keep repeating itself until we actually learn some lessons from it.

Let me kick things off by clarifying that I'm not entirely on board with GW as a company. I think their IP policy, while within their rights, could be written with more nuance. In practice they clearly allow several creators to continue their work, but the way their policy is written means that any day they can decide to crack down on anyone. If the policy itself included more precise details on what will and won't be condoned, these creators could continue without a permanent sword of Damocles over their heads. Most importantly, I think GW is abyssmal at open and sincere communication. People crave explanations, and in the absence of an official one, theories and assumptions become inevitable. People still bear personal responsibility for what they say and do, but GW shares in the responsibility for letting things like this fester because they refuse to comment on it.

All that said, let's look at the person most of the recent drama revolves around, Alfabusa. Let me preface this by clarifying that I am making assumptions, none of this is proven fact, and if your takeaway of my post is to go harrass somebody, you're a dirtbag. For ease of reading and following my internal logic, I'll try to break things up into bullet points.

Alfabusa's work is not fan content. I've seen a lot of people refer to it as such and this carries the implication that he's doing this only out of love for the franchise (which is not to say he has no love for it). Fact is that even before the recent surge in Patreon donations, he was earning significantly more than the average person, with a guaranteed 5k through Patreon, and several thousands more depending on his video output.

Another popular point is that GW benefits from content creators spreading the Warhammer franchise through their work. While true, although the actual conversion rate to sales for GW is probably not that big as some think, this goes both ways. Alfabusa's work wouldn't have garnered anywhere near this many views if it hadn't latched on to an already established and popular franchise built up by others. This doesn't necessarily make him indebted to GW, but it warrants mentioning.

As many have already pointed out, GW has not actually taken any action against Alfabusa or even been in contact with him. He claims to have done this as a preemptive measure to prevent legal costs in the future. The problem with this claim is that he hasn't actually taken any measures. If he truly fears GW will come after him, a video stating the intent to no longer continue the series does not cover him even remotely, as all the copyright-infringing videos of the past are still available and fully monetized.

To many, GW is a faceless corporation and therefore shouldn't be defended or spared of criticism. Corporations are however very much made up of people and have no will of their own. Every decision, every bit of content, every word coming out of a corporation came from a human being. Many employees take some pride in their work and due to human tribal nature, we have a tendency to associate ourselves with the groups we belong to. Justified or not, some of GW's employees will inevitably consider an attack on the company an attack on themselves and their work. This is not to say you can't criticize a company, but the manner in which this is done matters, because there is a human cost to it.

Since the uploading of his video, Alfabusa has made two statements, both on his Patreon page. Neither makes any mention of the verbal violence and toxicity that has erupted, despite it being impossible that he is not aware of it. Although he is not directly responsible for the actions of self-proclaimed fans, he holds some sway over them and he has clearly chosen not to use it to try calm things down. His statements are entirely focused on the increase in Patreon income he is now making, currently standing at 16,5K per month. Despite having a higher than average income even before this drama, many of the lines serve to paint himself as having to live in fear of poverty, and the fear that tomorrow everyone will abandon their financial pledge, as if to guilt-trip people into continuing to pay up. Even if tomorrow every single one of his videos was taken offline and every single one of his patrons disappeared, his income the past year was high enough that he could survive several more months at a decent quality of life if he has at all been financially responsible with his income.

Before the video that started all this, Alfabusa had not uploaded any content in over 6 months. No TTS video in over 9 months. As in his video he claims he may have to find a part-time job now, we can assume that his channel is his full-time job. Even taking into account he has become a father in these past 6 months, that's a long time to not deliver any results in your full-time job. Not that he owes the community anything, but it's hardly very wise if you want to have continued success, and implies there's some very poor organisation or work ethic going on.

GW is nowhere near the only party Alfabusa needs to worry about if it concerns copyright. He has routinely been using copyrighted artwork made by individuals without compensation or permission. Even if you dismiss GW as a faceless corporation, these artists are not.

Conclusion, many factors make me feel like Alfabusa was simply burnt out on TTS and wanted to move on to different things, but feared the backlash of choosing to abandon his by far most popular series. Months before this video, he had attempted to branch out into a different franchise, which got a decent amount of views, but nowhere near the TTS numbers. As the Sodaz debacle has proven, supposed fans can easily turn on the content creator if they feel at all wronged. He has been part of the Warhammer community long enough, he absolutely knows how easily a vocal portion of the community can be incited to spread hate against GW. Using the approach he has, he not only gets to move on to newer and more exciting projects without backlash from TTS fans, he has guaranteed that a die-hard portion of his fanbase will throw their full support behind his attempts to branch out into a different franchise out of mere spite, whereas they might have turned on him had they considered him the responsible one for the cancellation of their beloved series. But that's just speculation. Even if you agree, I plead that you do not harrass him. Behind the internet personality, there is a human being.

Edit: For anyone wondering if he's at all torn up about this drama, he has just today updated his next Patreon goal to a few millions with the message "I will buy Games Workshop"."

Find the thread here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/comments/oxossj/alfabusa_might_not_be_as_sincere_as_you_think/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

 

[The Red King]

No offense but "let me preface this with I am making assumptions" followed by a multiple paragraph character assault, really causes me to question the good faith intentions of the poster...

 

Tldr is "I dont know if anything I'm saying is true but Afabusa is a terrible person because I assume as much."

 

Edit: After reading the comments of the above reddit post I give no credence to the post at all. Anytime someone criticizes one of his points he deflects by saying that he made other points as well (and then does the same when someone criticizes the other points) and then devolves to ignoring them. The whole thing is a circle of people applauding how brave he is to say that about Afabusa in spite of his "ravenous fans" while simultaneously downvoting anyone who disagrees into oblivion.

 

Side note I neither like nor dislike afabusa though I have enjoyed a TTS or two in the past.

Edited August 4, 2021 by The Red King

[Gaz Taylor]

My take always from this topic are now….

1 ) Some people like to moan about GW and there is not a lot they can do to please these people.

2 ) The guy behind the YouTube Channel in question sounds a bit burnt out but is getting a fair bit of cash still from Patreon and YouTube Ads

3 ) GW haven’t done anything yet or changed anything but it’s wrong. 😁

I think it still comes back to if you see GW as this evil corporation and how you feel about it. I like what they do and there’s a lot of nice people that work there. I 100% think they need to review some of the things that were mentioned last week but they sound like a lot of places I have worked at.
 

I know if somebody was making money off something I created, I would be quite annoyed. So I think how GW have acted so far, has been quite tame and shows they do care about the community. In fact all of the noise is us talking about it!!!

[GrogTheGrognard]

31 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said:

My take always from this topic are now….

1 ) Some people like to moan about GW and there is not a lot they can do to please these people.

2 ) The guy behind the YouTube Channel in question sounds a bit burnt out but is getting a fair bit of cash still from Patreon and YouTube Ads

3 ) GW haven’t done anything yet or changed anything but it’s wrong. 😁

I think it still comes back to if you see GW as this evil corporation and how you feel about it. I like what they do and there’s a lot of nice people that work there. I 100% think they need to review some of the things that were mentioned last week but they sound like a lot of places I have worked at.
 

I know if somebody was making money off something I created, I would be quite annoyed. So I think how GW have acted so far, has been quite tame and shows they do care about the community. In fact all of the noise is us talking about it!!!

 

2. What basis are you even using for that assumption? Did you even read Alfabusa Patreon post? He made one August 2nd. In that post he seems to be happy about the community support he has received and is already planning on hiring someone full time to keep working. Hardly the actions of someone who's burnout.

3. GASLIGHTING ALERT! GW has made some changes to how they plan to enforce their IP laws especially with fan animators. They have also been gathering up fan animators for Warhammer+. You can say this is good bad or neutral, but what I can't stand is you pretending that it isn't happening. Don't gaslight and instead argue your actual points and you'll find more people willing to change their minds.

Edited August 4, 2021 by GrogTheGrognard

[ArkanautDadmiral]

8 hours ago, EMMachine said:

I don't know the story about Sodaz, but my guess is the following. I think the community has the point of view, that fanmade stuff has more passion and higher quality than stuff of a company that looks how to get most profit with least effort, and people either have the option to consume the content for free (generating ad revenue, or support the creator actively with patreon, and people only started with patreon because it is way to easy to be demoneytized on youtube).

So being hired by GW means a drop of quality and putting the content behind a pay wall with subscription (where the money most likely goes entirely to shareholders while the creators are underpaid). It simply feels better when Creators actually get the money instead of people that don't care about the product at all.

Most of the time subscriptions feel like scams. I mean, the Warscroll Builder has higher quality for free than the Armybuilder inside the AoS and 40k App combined which are behind a paywall.

 

But there’s no evidence of a drop in quality. And you can’t in one breath be concerned for Sodaz wage at GW while in the other harass him for agreeing to the deal to the point he leaves the community. It’s not for us to decide what Sodaz should be happy to be paid, it’s for Sodaz to decide.

The community can’t be defended here, they gave the guy so much hate he flat out left Warhammer.

You can feel the apps etc are a scam dude, that’s your opinion. Not everyone feels that way though.

[ArkanautDadmiral]

4 hours ago, GrogTheGrognard said:

GW caused this fiasco by removing content that was already available for free and trying to put it behind W+. This obviously led to backlash from the community, especially when GW put out their new IP guidelines that state. NO MORE FAN ANIMATIONS. Like at all, not if you do it for free, make it clear that it's not GW, no more fan animations. Bringing up SODAZ is to show that this hurts creators on both sides. Those who don't join up with GW TTS, and those who do join up with GW SODAZ. If GW had left the old videos alone and instead just stated that new videos were coming out on W+, and that fan animators could do whatever as long as it's free there would have still been backlash but it would have been less since other fan animators would and could make free fan animations.

GW started this conflict between themselves and the fans, and that conflict hurts people on both sides.

 

Allow me to quote GW's IP policy for you.

 

Fan-fiction, hobby books and magazines
Individuals may write their own stories, hobby books and magazines based on our characters and settings, but these must:

• not include text, artwork or imagery copied from any official Games Workshop material
• be non-commercial, with no money being received or paid. This includes all forms of fundraising activity, and generation of any advertising revenue
• not be publicly distributed, except for no-charge digital distribution
• make it clear that they are unofficial, without using any Games Workshop logos, and include the word ‘unofficial’ prominently on the front cover
• not be prejudicial to the goodwill, reputation or integrity of Games Workshop or its intellectual property

This seems to be like what you're saying that you can make something as long as it's clearly not offical GW and it's for free. Now allow me to quote their specific line on FAN ANIMATIONS.

• Fan-films and animations – individuals must not create fan films or animations based on our settings and characters. These are only to be created under licence from Games Workshop.

So literally GW IP policy is no fan animations anywhere that isn't W+. NOTHING, you can't do fan animations if it's free, clearly not officially GW, or anything else. You either get on W+ or you can just not make fan animations of AoS or 40K.

 

I’m not getting into ‘he started it’ arguments, it’s playground stuff. My issue is all accountability is being put on GW when it’s not the case. Sodaz harassment can’t be excused because of GW.

The comment you’ve quoted was in relation to someone saying GW had stifled Sodaz creativity, it’s false.

[ArkanautDadmiral]

5 hours ago, The Red King said:

I disagree with the stance you've come to but I also think you may have misunderstood what I was asking. 

 

I didn't say "they are attacking battle reports and paint channels" I said " If you feel they are in the right to 'defend' their IP from such things as TTS, then why do you not think they would be right to attack painting videos that include just as much if not more GW product (be it physical or IP) while being less transformative a work."

 

As to your stated opinion I think of it this way, GW owns the table that people like TTS are building their entire house of cards on. Gw didn't tell him directly "hey we can take this table whenever we want" but instead have come over to stand by the table and grabbed the legs. Their stance is directly responsible for making his continued work an untenable position and I personally would rather have TTS and other great and creative fan works over more corporate control. Again I don't want to sound conspiratorial but the only person who benefits from this move is GW's effort to sell warhammer+ and that's scummy and detrimental to the community which are kind of the heart of the whole game.

Because I don’t see painting tutorials or battle reports as anywhere similar to animations I guess.

I can’t remember if i quoted you directly but If I did, I wrongly started referring to the commenters (and youtubers etc) who are saying GW will be coming for everything, instead of just your question, sorry.

TTS chose to build his house of cards on GWs table. The table wasn’t already there. He was aware of the risks when he started. GW have been evil and lawsuit happy a long time remember. 

Like I said, I signed the petition. I’d prefer for people to be able to make fan animations without monetising them, but I understand GWs position completely too.

And it’s not conspiratorial. Their stance is absolutely about protecting W+, I agree with you, I’m obviously more at peace with it than you are I guess.

I understand all your points by the way mate, I can just emphasise with the other side too.

 

[ArkanautDadmiral]

1 hour ago, Gaz Taylor said:

My take always from this topic are now….

1 ) Some people like to moan about GW and there is not a lot they can do to please these people.

2 ) The guy behind the YouTube Channel in question sounds a bit burnt out but is getting a fair bit of cash still from Patreon and YouTube Ads

3 ) GW haven’t done anything yet or changed anything but it’s wrong. 😁

I think it still comes back to if you see GW as this evil corporation and how you feel about it. I like what they do and there’s a lot of nice people that work there. I 100% think they need to review some of the things that were mentioned last week but they sound like a lot of places I have worked at.
 

I know if somebody was making money off something I created, I would be quite annoyed. So I think how GW have acted so far, has been quite tame and shows they do care about the community. In fact all of the noise is us talking about it!!!

I noticed that his last video was 6 months ago. Admittedly I don’t know if he deleted some videos in between 6 months ago and now. But that’s a big gap without content when it’s your living and you’re paying staff.

Surely the super recent IP stance change can’t be to blame for that. Before that all anyone knew was that GW we’re offering jobs to animators.

edit: just saw Enobys post and obviously other people are picking up on the same thing.

Edited August 4, 2021 by ArkanautDadmiral

[The Red King]

10 minutes ago, ArkanautDadmiral said:

Because I don’t see painting tutorials or battle reports as anywhere similar to animations I guess

Well yes but I was genuinely asking why. This wasn't a gotcha, I just cant empathize with the other side if I cant understand their stance so that's why I asked.

 

When someone uses GW figures to play a game using GW rules and posts a video of it, in what way are they either A. Not building their house on the same table or B. Somehow more deserving of the use of the IP?

I can say with utmost certainty that animations take more time, effort, and thus investment, to make than a painting tutorial or battle report and so I have to understand where and why defenders of the stricter stance draw their lines.

 

Whether GW is or isnt currently stifling those kinds of channels (and I personally feel that an aggressive stance is a deterrent) would you or others defend their actions if they did choose to go after battle reports and lore videos and the like and why or why not? I know you feel they are different but can you tell me or yourself why they feel different if the crux of the issue is content creators making money off the GW IP?

[ArkanautDadmiral]

4 minutes ago, The Red King said:

Well yes but I was genuinely asking why. This wasn't a gotcha, I just cant empathize with the other side if I cant understand their stance so that's why I asked.

 

When someone uses GW figures to play a game using GW rules and posts a video of it, in what way are they either A. Not building their house on the same table or B. Somehow more deserving of the use of the IP?

I can say with utmost certainty that animations take more time, effort, and thus investment, to make than a painting tutorial or battle report and so I have to understand where and why defenders of the stricter stance draw their lines.

 

Whether GW is or isnt currently stifling those kinds of channels (and I personally feel that an aggressive stance is a deterrent) would you or others defend their actions if they did choose to go after battle reports and lore videos and the like and why or why not? I know you feel they are different but can you tell me or yourself why they feel different if the crux of the issue is content creators making money off the GW IP?

Honestly pal, I don’t know if it’s the beers, or just that they’re so dissimilar in my head I don’t even know how to explain it, so I’ll have to come back to you after a sleep haha.

Someone using painting their models and playing the game is what every customer is supposed to do. That’s what GW have sold you.

They’ve not sold you the right to create artworks based on their IP and sell it. Especially when they’re paying artists themselves to make the same things.

I’ve actually made a bunch of animations for my employer. Recently the biggest one I’ve ever done which was an explainer video for their production process. I KNOW how much time and effort they take (especially when you have limited self taught experience like me).

So if I’m on GWs payroll making animations and artwork, and another guy is doing it outside of GW and getting paid for it too when it’s supposed to be ‘fan art’ i can see why GW might feel the need to take the stance they do. I’m not saying GW are doing it for their artists, they’re not, but it does protect their work too.

No I wouldn’t defend them if they went after battle reports and painting tutorials, because painting miniatures and playing battles are literally what you’re paying to do. This is just the product being used for its purpose. 

And I also think a lot of this goes beyond stifling fan creativity. It’s not TTS creativity that’s being targeted or that he’s even worried about, it’s the lucrative business he’s created off the back of the IP. What he does has gone way beyond fan art.

What I will say, is I appreciate you actually trying to understand the other side.

[stratigo]

On 7/30/2021 at 8:33 AM, Overread said:

I just want to note GW has not taken any action toward "If the Emperor had a text-to-speech device". The creator has taken this action upon themselves based on their interpretation of GW's current stance and actions. However thus far we've not seen GW take any action against them; furthermore parodies do have some degree of legal protection in themselves. However how much or how far that protection extends and such is not something I'm well versed in.

 

In the end unless either party starts negotiations we won't know for sure if GW's implementation of their position matches with the content creators interpretation of it. 

Okay, I keep seeing this as a defense.

 

Do people not know how youtube works?

Alfabusa has to take a proactive step because if GW DO CnD him, the entire channel gets torched and everything is gone. The whole channel. Taking a proactive stance is the only chance he has to the rest of the channel unless you people think he can afford a years long legal battle with a billion dollar corporation.

On 7/30/2021 at 4:31 PM, Gaz Taylor said:

My personal opinion - I totally get why TTS has chosen to do this but I think they would have been fine to carry on. I think GW will be focused on anything which is very similar to what they produce on Warhammer Plus. I think as long as you don’t do this or are being very rude or making a lot of money off a video with GW artwork you should be safe. I don’t think GW would bother with anybody unless it’s direct competition. 
 

So for example, Tabletop Tactics would be fine as they show no GW artwork and everything is their own painted miniatures. This is the same for a lot of other battle reports channels (Re-Rolling Ones for example) or some may need to make minor tweaks (Season of War and some artwork in background of some graphics). Lore videos may be impacted more but again if it’s the presenter talking and their own artwork or miniatures, it should be okay.

Im no expert, so this is just my thoughts and I suspect GW want you to still create content. They could have done this for a lot of websites in the past but they haven’t. 

GW knows what a chilling effect is.

 

On 7/31/2021 at 2:22 PM, Gaz Taylor said:

Just a couple of more thoughts on this. Suppose GW weren’t the company they are and were a small one man band creating artwork and selling it. Now say somebody came along and took one of those pieces of art (say off a website, social media post, etc) and made a T Shirt with it and made a lot of money. GW are in their right to start getting annoyed and doing something about it. That’s all this is. GW are doing what a lot of businesses do to protect their products. 
 

I also have to point out that none of the details have changed as such here around IP, I think they’ve just tapped the sign to make sure everybody is aware about the rules. They are just protecting their business. 
 

Errr… Thomas Cook was a combination of tough competition of booking holidays online and a global pandemic. Wire card was fraud? (Not sure). 
 

These comparisons always fall apart because a company is not one man making art in their garage.

 

Kantian ethics is a bad system to base your ethics around and is just used to justify making things worse for the have nots and protecting the haves.

 

On 8/2/2021 at 5:56 AM, Sarouan said:

By the way, about the petition...it's on the site change.org.

Turns out there are some...questionnable things about this site.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Change.org

Since you have to create an account and put your personnal information on it, be careful. You'd think you do it for a "good cause" and they may be used for something else entirely as well...

The irony here is that you're petitioning to change GW's corporations abuses and in the process, you get yourself exploited by another corporation. Heh.

Hmmm, Sarouan trying to cast doubt on the legitimacy of the tools to petition for change using a website created by a non profit created by a sleazy corporate frontman?

 

The irony.

 

Do some digging and you'll find that your website is created by dudes funded by the tabacco industry to petition for deregulation in America's food industry. The whole group exists to advocate for deregulation of business. EG, it's right wing corporatists BS, so not a huge shock it would be your source.

 

I welcome anyone to look up Richard Berman, the man behind CORE (which is behind the so called activism facts.com)

On 8/3/2021 at 3:34 AM, RuneBrush said:

It matters because that amount of income each month makes TTS a commercial venture and no longer something fan based - in the UK a turnover of £85k+ needs to be VAT registered so based purely on Patreon subscriptions TTS is considered a business.

Within both the US and UK fair use rules, the commerciality of created content plays a huge part on if its creation is considered fair use or not.

 

 

So, two things.

 

First, Alfabusa isn't in the UK

 

Second, the patreon system can be used as a vendor, but often isn't. He's making money, but not selling. Not sure if this would be a meaningful distinction

 

12 hours ago, Gaz Taylor said:

You do have to remember there are a lot of people who seem to enjoy moaning about stuff like this. I’ve been in the hobby for about 25 years and this happens all the time. I think these people think they are defending the small business person or protecting somebody who makes cool content and are sticking it to “the man”. So there is loads of talk about boycotts and things become toxic. We don’t want that on TGA because it’s not nice to read about and in the grand scheme of things, GW aren’t evil. They do lots of things wrong and it seems they need some work to do internally as a business but they aren’t evil. It’s interesting some people on social media have been talking about not playing GW games and buying stuff, due to TTS shutting up shop but none of this in the previous discussion about staff.
 

As I’ve mentioned, GW also haven’t done anything yet and in my opinion are in their rights to protect their business. So unless you are in direct competition of Warhammer plus, I think a lot of content creators will be fine. Plus it means some of them may need to up their game as well.

 

GW is evil in the same way most corporations are incentivized to do evil. Evil as defined in a utilitarian sense of doing more harm then good.

 

What GW does to its employees is evil. But it's a common evil we as a society look away from because we are so used to it. But that doesn't make it not evil

 

 

 

 

[Beliman]

1 hour ago, GrogTheGrognard said:

GW has made some changes to how they plan to enforce their IP laws especially with fan animators.

Are you sure?

Never saw anything before about how GW handled fan-created things. But I saw that they copyright'ed everything: if you copyright something, you are accepting a list of agreements. This "guidelines" are part of all this agreements.

I started this hobby on 2017, and I don't know how GW takes this kind of stuff, but I'm still thinking that GW will not start suing everyone as some people think.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Beliman
@Blood0Tiger If you are confused about something, just ask. I will try to do my best to answer.

[Gaz Taylor]

5 hours ago, GrogTheGrognard said:

 Don't gaslight and instead argue your actual points and you'll find more people willing to change their minds.

I don’t think I need to argue my points. They are my thoughts. If I was a business that created something and somebody was making money off it, I would do what I could to protect it. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. 
 

HOWEVER, I’m not happy with you accusing me of Gaslighting. I can say I am not doing this and I’m not particularly happy with you using this term. 

[pnkdth]

16 hours ago, Gaz Taylor said:

I don’t think I need to argue my points. They are my thoughts. If I was a business that created something and somebody was making money off it, I would do what I could to protect it. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. 
 

HOWEVER, I’m not happy with you accusing me of Gaslighting. I can say I am not doing this and I’m not particularly happy with you using this term. 

Not explaining points tends to invite misunderstandings though.

Gaslighting or not, I think you're oversimplifying the issues people have with GW and minimising the changes we've seen. I've been around since 98' and I love the hobby and the passionate people in it. I don't like corporate nonsense and excuses for customer/community unfriendly practices and it is because GW is a business I'm boycotting their products. That is where I put the blame, squarely on the execs. If I don't change my behaviour, why should they? They are of course within their rights to act like this but as a customer it is also within my rights to take my business elsewhere (even if it just to make a point).

I will still continue to participate in the hobby and be a positive force like I always have been. Mostly because I have seen GW bounce back from their overprotective ways. Lead by example, and all that. I just think it is important to talk about the hard issues too without ending up in the fanboi vs hater dichotomy. At the same I sympathise, having been a mod myself, the negative voices sometimes prevail.

All in all, I'm hoping all of this leads to better communication between GW and content creators. Ideally, some sort of partnership program because online presence is both hugely beneficial for the community and GW as a business. If you get hooked on quality stuff outside of Warhammer+ then it usually leads to subscribing to Warhammer+ to continue feeding that fix (many video streaming services got 1 month free or free with commercials/limited content). My guess is that bigwigs at the top is testing how hard they can squeeze before the community reacts.

TL;DR: There's multiple ways to move forward with the community + I do not think there's a clear line between people who are "fanboys" or "haters."