Petition for more fan creativity

[MitGas]

Thought I'd share this petition - the end of the funny (and pretty crazy) web-series "If the Emperor had a text-to-speech device" on Youtube made lots of people think about the current situation... I thought it might be wise to share this petition and ask GW together to rethink their legal team's approach concerning parody (and other fan projects that are not detrimental) - in the end it's free publicity and we all know that many very talented and funny people are part of the Warhammer fandom. This is not about bashing GW and it's understandable that they need to secure their property (and they didn't even do anything yet in this case either, read post below for more details) but perhaps a compromise can be found.

http://chng.it/ZTHhJ2Cm

Edited July 30, 2021 by MitGas

[Overread]

I just want to note GW has not taken any action toward "If the Emperor had a text-to-speech device". The creator has taken this action upon themselves based on their interpretation of GW's current stance and actions. However thus far we've not seen GW take any action against them; furthermore parodies do have some degree of legal protection in themselves. However how much or how far that protection extends and such is not something I'm well versed in.

 

In the end unless either party starts negotiations we won't know for sure if GW's implementation of their position matches with the content creators interpretation of it. 

[sandlemad]

RE: Alfabusa specifically, his point is that TTS being a parody and legally covered under fair use essentially doesn't matter. It might be 'safe' technically but that's never stopped Youtube from unceremoniously booting stuff before based on a whim. Moreover if GW did want to quarrel about this (as they have before, regardless of the legality), even defending himself most likely would be financially ruinous and immensely stressful. As a new father, he just doesn't want that.

Which is the point really, GW gets their chilling effect by virtue of being the 800-pound gorilla here. Alfabusa is in a difficult position and his being 'in the right' technically (quite apart from being a small creator who has brought however many people into the fandom) is essentially orthogonal to the whole affair.

Maybe there could be some compromise but even then the power would be so skewed in the relationship between them that I completely get why Alfabusa is making the sad decision to step away.

[shinros]

1 hour ago, sandlemad said:

RE: Alfabusa specifically, his point is that TTS being a parody and legally covered under fair use essentially doesn't matter. It might be 'safe' technically but that's never stopped Youtube from unceremoniously booting stuff before based on a whim. Moreover if GW did want to quarrel about this (as they have before, regardless of the legality), even defending himself most likely would be financially ruinous and immensely stressful. As a new father, he just doesn't want that.

Which is the point really, GW gets their chilling effect by virtue of being the 800-pound gorilla here. Alfabusa is in a difficult position and his being 'in the right' technically (quite apart from being a small creator who has brought however many people into the fandom) is essentially orthogonal to the whole affair.

Maybe there could be some compromise but even then the power would be so skewed in the relationship between them that I completely get why Alfabusa is making the sad decision to step away.

People forget this part, no matter if you're in the right if you don't have the funds to fight the issue it doesn't matter. GW know what they're doing with their new IP guidelines, it's to kill off competition/fan work for their new subscription service. 

[Overread]

Actually so far they've not taken down any fan works. The only restriction they've imposed is demonetizing (youtube ads, patreon etc...) of existing fan works and that's been after the creators have been typically made a contact offer to work for GW/distribute through Warhammer +. 

[GrogTheGrognard]

Funnily enough, I won't sign the petition because I don't think it will actually help. GW as a company focuses on earning money therefore if you send them a petition and keep spending money at their company they won't care as they still receive the money they want. Rather I think it's better to as they say 'Vote with your wallet' and instead I won't purchase any official GW product from GW or GW stores. If you need new models there are 3rd party sellers like Ebay and Troll Trader and most rules can be found on sites like Battlescribe, and Wahapedia.

 

I completely understand why TTS are doing this. A single Cease & Desist would be devastating for the channel, and I don't think they should have to take the risk that GW might, keyword might, be feeling generous enough to not attack them even if TTS is in the right with respect to parodies.

 

Simply put GW has made the Carrot and Stick quite clear here either you join up for W+ or feel the wrath of GW legal

Edited July 30, 2021 by GrogTheGrognard

[ArkanautDadmiral]

I understand both sides of the coin.

I’ll happily sign the petition, because I’d prefer a world with more fan animations. But I do understand GWs perspective if they don’t want people monetising their IP (which is all that’s happened to any creator so far).

Anyway, signed. Hopefully they get a green light to keep doing what they do or at least a clarified stance from GW that they can continue to make it without monetising it at least.

If non-monetised fan works start getting pulled, then I’ll be upset with the rest too. But that’s not the case yet.

[JustAsPlanned]

This is honestly so infuriating. The fact that GW is so full on “Gah, my precious! Nobody else can haves it! No one!” with their IP like some big corporate Gollum is an insult to creators like Alfabusa that put their heart and soul into things like TTS. And for what? So they can force people to pay £5 a month for the same stuff - but arguably with less passion - on WH+? First the incessant hyping ALL the time, then the lack of communication, then the ceasing of digital books, then the pay leaks, and now this! I’m genuinely tempted to just full on stop buying GW stuff for a while - I’ve got a sizeable backlog anyway so it’s not like I’ll be short of hobby stuff.

Anywho. Signed. Let’s hope the community doesn’t forget about this when they inevitably push the emergency hype switch and show off the Primaris Black Templars or something.

Edited July 30, 2021 by JustAsPlanned

[Sarouan]

7 hours ago, MitGas said:

 the end of the funny (and pretty crazy) web-series "If the Emperor had a text-to-speech device" on Youtube made lots of people think about the current situation...

It didn't end. It's just on indefinite hiatus. And yes, it's the creator's decision to do that just out of fears something bad may happen to his channel...but he never tried to contact GW as well.

Besides, it's also good to remember that making videos on Youtube is far from being disinterested most of the time. And that when you use someone else's IP in your own work, it's usually polite to ask permission first from the IP owner rather than roll with it and hoping nothing will happen.

I don't really believe in the effect of petitions anyway.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Sarouan

[Gaz Taylor]

My personal opinion - I totally get why TTS has chosen to do this but I think they would have been fine to carry on. I think GW will be focused on anything which is very similar to what they produce on Warhammer Plus. I think as long as you don’t do this or are being very rude or making a lot of money off a video with GW artwork you should be safe. I don’t think GW would bother with anybody unless it’s direct competition. 
 

So for example, Tabletop Tactics would be fine as they show no GW artwork and everything is their own painted miniatures. This is the same for a lot of other battle reports channels (Re-Rolling Ones for example) or some may need to make minor tweaks (Season of War and some artwork in background of some graphics). Lore videos may be impacted more but again if it’s the presenter talking and their own artwork or miniatures, it should be okay.

Im no expert, so this is just my thoughts and I suspect GW want you to still create content. They could have done this for a lot of websites in the past but they haven’t. 

[Blood0Tiger]

7 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said:

Im no expert, so this is just my thoughts and I suspect GW want you to still create content. They could have done this for a lot of websites in the past but they haven’t. 

Yesterdays world that would be correct because they really didn't produce much community content until age of sigmar came out and youtube creators on warhammer were significantly smaller. Community has grown along with the company, they want to control the growth now instead of grow with it. 

[Noserenda]

I can certainly understand TTS's position, doing a huge amount of creative work with a sword of damocles hanging over you is at best, no fun. Have experienced similar in a "fan project gone legit but radically changed in the process" where we were working for a couple of months after the rights holder contacted us but before they welcomed us aboard and productivity and morale went right out the window, almost certainly being a leading cause of the project's collapse 6 months or so later.  

[MitGas]

1 hour ago, Sarouan said:

It didn't end. It's just on indefinite hiatus. And yes, it's the creator's decision to do that just out of fears something bad may happen to his channel...but he never tried to contact GW as well.

Besides, it's also good to remember that making videos on Youtube is far from being disinterested most of the time. And that when you use someone else's IP in your own work, it's usually polite to ask permission first from the IP owner rather than roll with it and hoping nothing will happen.

I don't really believe in the effect of petitions anyway.

Indefinite hiatus usually is the end though. I understand where you are coming from and personally alsobelieve that GW wouldn't kill off Alfabusa's channel and he is a bit overreacting but it would be good if there was an official comment regarding these things - not just for this particular case but for future projects as well. Many forms of entertainment around 40k or other GW IPs can be made without stepping on GW's own plans. I'm pretty sure a parody aimed at adults isn't something GW plans on doing anways. 

[Sarouan]

2 minutes ago, MitGas said:

Indefinite hiatus usually is the end though.

The good thing with hiatus is that you can always go back whenever you decide it.

That's he said in his video as well : he's waiting to see if there are any signs from GW shifting their stance.

So let's wait and see !

[Gaz Taylor]

3 hours ago, Blood0Tiger said:

Community has grown along with the company, they want to control the growth now instead of grow with it. 

I think there is an element of that but I think it’s more them just wanting to protect Warhammer Plus. I just think they’ve been a bit heavy handed with it.

[Fairbanks]

For those who don't know, here's what actually happens in civil lawsuits:

1. Plaintiff sues Defendant. Defendant lawyers up (Plaintiff already has one).

2. Side that is most likely in the wrong has two options: a) Admit guilt and try to settle ASAP. b) Spend money until the other side runs out of money/patience and decides to settle out of court.

On 7/30/2021 at 8:10 AM, sandlemad said:

RE: Alfabusa specifically, his point is that TTS being a parody and legally covered under fair use essentially doesn't matter. It might be 'safe' technically but that's never stopped Youtube from unceremoniously booting stuff before based on a whim. Moreover if GW did want to quarrel about this (as they have before, regardless of the legality), even defending himself most likely would be financially ruinous and immensely stressful. As a new father, he just doesn't want that.

Which is the point really, GW gets their chilling effect by virtue of being the 800-pound gorilla here. Alfabusa is in a difficult position and his being 'in the right' technically (quite apart from being a small creator who has brought however many people into the fandom) is essentially orthogonal to the whole affair.

Maybe there could be some compromise but even then the power would be so skewed in the relationship between them that I completely get why Alfabusa is making the sad decision to step away.

Alfabusa has two major issues:

1. He straight up started with GW art in several of the animations. The Emperor is a big one. Kitten, and any other number of models are probably also major uses. If they were drawn from scratch/memory by a staff artist it probably flies without issue. But I don't think that was what was done, so it probably violates both spirit and letter of the law. This can, however be put to the side-burner from GW's perspective.

2. His content is such parody that it is insulting to GW, so they probably frown upon it being used in any official capacity. You can look at The Simpsons or Family Guy poking fun at Fox in one-off jokes as examples that hit an issue but don't go too far as to damage the company. TTS on the other hand takes a pretty massive dump on 40K as a setting. This is why TTS will probably get a C&D Letter instead of an Offer-That-You-Can't-Refuse.

 

Personally, I hate think all of this is stupid because free-advertising probably brings in more money than self-contained profit. There's a lot GW do that is stupid though (Try cutting the MSRP on your models by 15%, ya nerds).

Edited August 2, 2021 by Fairbanks

[The Red King]

So the person in the other thread who said "they dont have to go after people as long as the threat still drives people away and discourages new content creators" was completely right then.

 

Driving down fan involvement and creativity all to sell it back to us in WH+, I swear corporations would find a way to charge us for air if they could. 

 

If I had had any interest in WH+ I would still not buy it on principle after these heavy handed IP moves.

[Kodos der Henker]

well, this comes 20 years too late, GW is what it is and will never change again

they are protecting what is theirs and neither want your input, creativity or your help

they don't want to grow the community but a constant flow of new people to compensate those that leave and keep everything at a size they can supply and control

and if the community outgrown the supply, they do something to shrink it again

[EMMachine]

The funny thing is they are writing at the beginning "We also have a duty to preserve and protect our intellectual property rights – this is the only way we can ensure that Warhammer will be around forever". Well if you want to be around forever your top priorities should be your customers and the people working their and not the shareholders (unless they want to end like Thomas Cook or Wirecard).

It's the community that gives the money so GW still exists and they basicly make free publisity, while they lose money in the longrun to the shareholders that make next to nothing or not even are interested into the product.

Edited July 31, 2021 by EMMachine

[Beliman]

I just want to add two points:

1. The rights are the same as previous years. GW are still in the same legal framework as before.
2. This new guidelines are based on the laws for point 1. They are pointing out what you can and what you can not.

Each country has their own laws to regulate this patrimonial IP rights (this are the ones that we are talking about). And they can be a bit diferent from one country to other.

Edited July 31, 2021 by Beliman
Grammar. Not sure if I'm using the right words...

[Gaz Taylor]

Just a couple of more thoughts on this. Suppose GW weren’t the company they are and were a small one man band creating artwork and selling it. Now say somebody came along and took one of those pieces of art (say off a website, social media post, etc) and made a T Shirt with it and made a lot of money. GW are in their right to start getting annoyed and doing something about it. That’s all this is. GW are doing what a lot of businesses do to protect their products. 
 

I also have to point out that none of the details have changed as such here around IP, I think they’ve just tapped the sign to make sure everybody is aware about the rules. They are just protecting their business. 
 

19 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

(unless they want to end like Thomas Cook or Wirecard).

Errr… Thomas Cook was a combination of tough competition of booking holidays online and a global pandemic. Wire card was fraud? (Not sure). 
 

[Sarouan]

It's interesting to see the patreon account of the creator of "If the Emperor had a text-to-speech device". Look at what he gains per month :

https://www.patreon.com/alfabusa

That's...quite a lot. It's not a question of "surviving". He's at the stage of leading a small team and still living comfortably.

He sure sounds very nice and all, no problem...but wow...right now, he earns nearly half my annual salary a month...

I'm pretty sure he could pay GW a license if he wanted to as well.

 

Maybe I too should launch my channel with fan animations talking ****** about GW...it looks like a very profitable business nowadays.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Sarouan

[pnkdth]

1 hour ago, Sarouan said:

I'm pretty sure he could pay GW a license if he wanted to as well.

 

Maybe I too should launch my channel with fan animations talking ****** about GW...it looks like a very profitable business nowadays.

A content creator license has been put forth as a better way of dealing with this (by MajorKill, for example). It would have been a much better way to maintain a good relationship with creators (and the community at large) while not allowing more cynical creators to coast off the back of their IP. 

I would also say that TTS is far more than taking **** about GW. Any good or celebrated parody hinges upon a deep knowledge and love for the franchise. Which is reflected in the script and quality of the TTS project. Though there definitely are people who take any chance they can to jump on GW's throat but I do not think TTS slots in with those people.

Edited August 2, 2021 by pnkdth

[Sarouan]

By the way, about the petition...it's on the site change.org.

Turns out there are some...questionnable things about this site.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Change.org

Quote

Is Change.org a legitimate organization?

 

(Change) is a multimillion dollar for-profit private company, not a nonprofit public charity as many falsely assume. The company began as a nonprofit that connected charities to donors, but has transitioned into a for-profit company that makes money by selling advertised petitions on its website, Change.org.

Change.org - Activist Facts

https://www.activistfacts.com › 530-change-dot-org

Since you have to create an account and put your personnal information on it, be careful. You'd think you do it for a "good cause" and they may be used for something else entirely as well...

The irony here is that you're petitioning to change GW's corporations abuses and in the process, you get yourself exploited by another corporation. Heh.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Sarouan

[GrogTheGrognard]

6 hours ago, Sarouan said:

It's interesting to see the patreon account of the creator of "If the Emperor had a text-to-speech device". Look at what he gains per month :

https://www.patreon.com/alfabusa

That's...quite a lot. It's not a question of "surviving". He's at the stage of leading a small team and still living comfortably.

He sure sounds very nice and all, no problem...but wow...right now, he earns nearly half my annual salary a month...

I'm pretty sure he could pay GW a license if he wanted to as well.

 

Maybe I too should launch my channel with fan animations talking ****** about GW...it looks like a very profitable business nowadays.

Wow, just wow.

1. How does the amount of Patreon money matter for this discussion? If he was making $1 billion every month versus $10 every month would that change who's in the right and who's in the wrong? Would it change how GW is currently throttling the fan creativity like TTS or SODAZ?

2. You do realize he actually is leading a small team of animators, voices actors, and editors to make TTS right? TTS isn't free to make you have to pay a lot of people for the production work they put out. I'm not saying he's making nothing but you are taking the full $19k per month and acting like it's pure profit when it is nowhere close to that.

3. He shouldn't have to buy a GW license as TTS is clearly a parody of the 40k universe as a whole. That being said UK parody law is a joke because they literally say that the caricature, parody, or pastiche must be 'fair dealing', but there is no agreed definition of 'fair dealing'. This allows GW to sue anybody making a parody claiming it's not 'fair dealing' no matter what.

4. Maybe you should launch your own fan animation channel talking **** about GW and maybe after around EIGHT YEARS of putting out quality content you can finally make around what TTS is making currently as well. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by GrogTheGrognard