James Hewitt discusses his Salary when working with GW

[Sarouan]

13 minutes ago, Beastmaster said:

Not completely serious here. But whenever I heard people far „up the ladder“ talking about the passion for the actual work they do, it somehow sounded… hollow. 

They mostly talk about how stressful their job are and how much pressure they can have with so many responsabilities. But some are really passionate about what they do. It's not an easy job as well when you truly care for your job and the well-being of your team while also fulfilling the (somewhat unrealistics) expectations from your department.

Honestly, I can sympathize with some of them that I knew and appreciate because of their own empathy towards their employees. And I know for sure I don't want to deal with that kind of job myself.

There is a saying about being lonely at the top. That is true as well...when you're way above others and with a big salary, there is an expectation you'll do more because of it. I know some of my managers did keep working way past their hours because they wanted to do their best even though they were paid the same in the end. And some did get burn out because of it...yet they were well paid so it can be hard to empathize, but I do know that their charge wasn't easy as a human person still.

Then, like I said, I work in a public company so there is still that notion of "public service" buried deep inside past the normal management right-wing propaganda.

Edited July 27, 2021 by Sarouan

[MitGas]

1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

Indeed, though that's not the way it should be.
I for once could have worked in a Pixar-like company, doing 3D Modelling and Animation all day long. Yet the pay would be horrific, though you need an incredible amount of know-how, invested time and skill. That's why I went into informatics (Mostly Games) and I only freelance in 3D modelling besides my main job.

Imo the whole concept of Managers and company owners getting absurdly rich at the cost of their employees is where the society failed.
 

Good for you, really. Programmers are the last ones that have a fairly decent income. I'm sure that will change too when there's a surplus, already started with easy languages (like web stuff). I had offers by Blizzard and Epic way back when I used to do textures for 3d models. It was always just a hobby for me though as I already knew back then that the videogame field was a cul-de-sac in that position - the offers back then were much better than they were now but the outlook wasn't exactly sexy either. You'd sit in some (for me at least) random place like Austin (IIRC) and earn a salary that back then was enough to live but far from enough to live well. And as much as I enjoy painting models (whether in RL or digitally), it would suck out all my joy if I had to do it. I've studied film instead, never did much with that (possibly because that's a field over here where contacts outweigh skill, something I hate) and in the end started my own small creative agency. I like that field although I would be just as happy (if not more) in other creative fields but the likelihood of earning well were just way lower in other fields.

Like I said (and you too), the actual talent is expendable in the eyes of the ones that earn a lot. It sucks but it's just the way it is - life's not fair and never will be, so man up and do your thing, at least I believe in that way. 😎.  Look at the Dead Space situation for a fairly recent example. Now those very same idiots/suits that killed the original team and later on the franchise got a new team (who might do a great job, we'll see) to do a remake of the game. While the talent of the original works on their own Sci-Fi horror game. I hope they'll do really well - if Karma exists, they should have all the success in the world with it.

But yeah, if you wanna have an easy life, don't go into creative fields and if you do, do it in such a way where you are not fully dependent on a fixed (and way too low) income. It can be more work for less pay, you'll get less respect, frustrating situations are there often enough (my favorite example being when a design gets messed up by the client cause he thinks he knows best) and if your work is good it's just "talent", not skills you've honed over many years. I liken the situation to actors in LA. Becoming big/rich is about as likely as winning the lottery. It's more likely you'll have a ****** job instead to finance a dream. 

 

[Sarouan]

Yep, we can't change the world with this topic, but at least ? We can talk about it. That's already a good thing.

[Sunshine]

14 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

That's mind-boggling if true. Close to actual poverty wages. 

It was a few thousand above minimum wage at the time and your comment is an insult to shop workers and others like them on minimum wage. 

Whilst his wage was low for the work that he was doing, there are numerous jobs that are as equally unrewarding in the UK with a higher degree of responsibility. 

[Aeryenn]

Fun fact: his salary considered poverty wage is actually considered very high in most countries, even EU. Of course I'm aware that living costs in UK are much higher than in those countries.

[stratigo]

52 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

It was a few thousand above minimum wage at the time and your comment is an insult to shop workers and others like them on minimum wage. 

Whilst his wage was low for the work that he was doing, there are numerous jobs that are as equally unrewarding in the UK with a higher degree of responsibility. 

Those should be paid more too though.

 

 

[Sunshine]

49 minutes ago, stratigo said:

Those should be paid more too though.

 

 

Yep, I agree that everyone should at least be paid the living wage which is currently around 19k rather than the minimum wage that is current around 17.5k.

Edited July 27, 2021 by Sunshine

[stratigo]

4 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

Yep, I agree that everyone should at least be paid the living wage which is currently around 19k rather than the minimum wage that is current around 17.5k.

Everyone should be paid more then that.

 

And there is more then enough money in the system to do that too.

[Sarouan]

13 minutes ago, stratigo said:

And there is more then enough money in the system to do that too.

So you do agree it's not just a GW problem.

[MitGas]

2 hours ago, Sarouan said:

Yep, we can't change the world with this topic, but at least ? We can talk about it. That's already a good thing.

Indeed it is but then again that's a basic human right anyways... there are enough topics already where you get your very own lockjaw now anyways if you don't repeat the "socially accepted" opinion like a lemming. They try to kill the discussion about wages since ages too.

Main problem is that what was true for our parents (and what they told us) wasn't true anymore when we were old enough to start work - not just are you less appreciated but the whole money situation got perverted to a point where you can achieve less than your parent's generation could. Basic living costs are WAAAAY higher now and the hyper-capitalism divided people way more than it ever did. When I look at truly young people now, I understand why lack motivation and care about much less important things now because they got way worse perspectives when it comes to income.

I've read that big factory owners used to make 5-10 times as much as their employees around 90 years ago. Now it's sometimes like 50 times as much or even more in the case of hyper-successful people. I think many young people need a certain wakeup call, I sure as hell did. Your grandparents could easily afford a house, your parents a flat, you can pay rent - it's almost impossible to close the gap to people that were fortunate enough to inherit property. It's kinda similar to the situation with relationships and love. It's unfortunately not as easy, fair and innocent or beautiful as we might all have hoped for. I might sound overtly negative here but trust me, I'm not enjoying painting a bleak picture.

Just saying that had I known more about how the world functions (or will function), I would've become a dentist (or even better now, a plastic surgeon who mainly focuses on liquid facelifts) or something.  Not too much work (at least over here where most self-employed doctors work a 25 hour week) and you earn a lot more than most people ever will. Plus you'll get new customers without having to do much so you don't even need to be a good businessman.  

[MitGas]

1 minute ago, Sarouan said:

So you do agree it's not just a GW problem.

Not a GW problem at all but they're part of the problem - I see the same problem in the videogame field, ads, movies, tv, etc. I'm sure every fan of GW products thinks that Jes Goodwin or John Blanche (or any of the other talented folks at GW) are more important and integral to the company's success than 99% of the suits that very likely earn a lot more than the creative powerhouses. IMO that isn't fair at all, especially because most suits are just as interchangable (IF NOT MORE!) as the creatives. 

[Golub87]

1 minute ago, Sarouan said:

So you do agree it's not just a GW problem.

Of course, but focusing on shaming GW in this particular instance is warranted.

"Everybody does it" is not a zinger people think it is.

[stratigo]

6 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

So you do agree it's not just a GW problem.

I... said as much in the OP

[Sarouan]

35 minutes ago, stratigo said:

I... said as much in the OP

Not that clearly. Always good to clarify things sometimes.

 

Besides, about that part :

17 hours ago, stratigo said:

But don't consume in ignorance that the money you pay goes into the pockets of the people who make the games you love. It largely does not. Do not make the argument that supporting GW is supporting the designers. It largely is not. I am sick and tired of people apologizing on behalf of GW with the argument that we have to support the people working there. GW doesn't support the people working there.

...I'll just say that buying GW products doesn't mean you're naive about where most of the money goes. Yet, still part of the money goes to employees. They may not be paid as much as we would like to, but at least, they -are- paid. Still better than having nothing with no job if GW was to close its doors / reduce its personnal because it doesn't earn "enough" anymore.

Also, the reason I do order in my GW shop while I could buy elsewhere for cheaper is because I know it matters for the shop's manager stats and it helps him on long term. And I don't especially want him to lose his job, nor the shop getting closed because it makes not enough sales.

Which is why I never understood people advocating for GW's fall. Other than obviously losing all support for our favorite games and no more GW miniatures, it just means another company will fill the gap, and there is no reasons it would be "cleaner" in the current setting of our society. All it means for sure, though, is that a lot of people will lose their jobs and not all of them will find another that easily...or, at least, something that they really enjoy to do.

And that's also why I'm saying GW isn't core of the problem here. Focusing on it is getting wrong about the true target. Feels like far right parties blaming immigrants for job losses...it's just deflection of the rightful anger of the people on something that's not the roots, but is convenient to use as a scarecrow for others interests. It's simplifying the deep core of the problems and doesn't invite people to think more about it and how to find solutions - just give something to hate. I don't like that.

Edited July 27, 2021 by Sarouan

[plavski]

 

[stratigo]

40 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

Not that clearly. Always good to clarify things sometimes.

 

Besides, about that part :

...I'll just say that buying GW products doesn't mean you're naive about where most of the money goes. Yet, still part of the money goes to employees. They may not be paid as much as we would like to, but at least, they -are- paid. Still better than having nothing with no job if GW was to close its doors / reduce its personnal because it doesn't earn "enough" anymore.

Also, the reason I do order in my GW shop while I could buy elsewhere for cheaper is because I know it matters for the shop's manager stats and it helps him on long term. And I don't especially want him to lose his job, nor the shop getting closed because it makes not enough sales.

Which is why I never understood people advocating for GW's fall. Other than obviously losing all support for our favorite games and no more GW miniatures, it just means another company will fill the gap, and there is no reasons it would be "cleaner" in the current setting of our society. All it means for sure, though, is that a lot of people will lose their jobs and not all of them will find another that easily...or, at least, something that they really enjoy to do.

And that's also why I'm saying GW isn't core of the problem here. Focusing on it is getting wrong about the true target. Feels like far right parties blaming immigrants for job losses...it's just deflection of the rightful anger of the people on something that's not the roots, but is convenient to use as a scarecrow for others interests. It's simplifying the deep core of the problems and doesn't invite people to think more about it and how to find solutions - just give something to hate. I don't like that.

This is a forum about GW games and going "Well everyone does it" Starts to sound like a defense of bad practices of GW by trying to dismiss them.

 

No, GW commits to bad labor practices. That such bad practices are industry or even society wide doesn't excuse every individual company of those practices. It gets to a point where you can't talk about literally any company's abuses because "they all do this". 

 

People better grasp real concrete identifiable events. Statistics make people's eyes gloss over. Each story is important because people identify with other people and not a faceless mass.

[Sarouan]

19 minutes ago, stratigo said:

This is a forum about GW games and going "Well everyone does it" Starts to sound like a defense of bad practices of GW by trying to dismiss them.

 

No, GW commits to bad labor practices. That such bad practices are industry or even society wide doesn't excuse every individual company of those practices. It gets to a point where you can't talk about literally any company's abuses because "they all do this". 

 

People better grasp real concrete identifiable events. Statistics make people's eyes gloss over. Each story is important because people identify with other people and not a faceless mass.

Of course stories are important and James and Sophie's testimonies are interesting to keep in mind.

What I'm saying, though, is that behind the company, there are people - lots of people who still work nowadays at GW, unlike James and Sophie who managed to find another job (and James is very happy with his own company, wish him all the good in the world !). Advocating for actions against GW, like your posts constantly incite to do, has consequences for these people - who aren't in majority top management that will always be fine even if GW was about to fall.

James's last tweet is a good reminder of that as well. Current employees aren't apparently allowed to talk about it on social media, so better not try to harass them too much about it...

The point of my interventions here is : "don't get the wrong target". It's not GW who make their employees sign contracts, refuse payrises or fire them...it's very specific people behind these decisions, with a particular mindset (some who may not be working at GW anymore, they're not eternals either). James talking about GW's culture is important to keep in mind as well (I know this too, I knew the period of that famous "black / red book"...a good thing they don't use it anymore, indeed...but like I said, change takes a lot of time and remnants are still there, you can't erase them with a snap of fingers).

 

I guess you can see this as "GW defense by trying to dismiss what they did", but I never did dismiss these practices. In fact, I despise them, no matter who does that. The thing is...solution to me is more changing GW than trying to destroy it. Like having GW worker unions actually playing a role to represent their voice within GW, and not just all powerful managers. Having more work about the organization, restoring healthier relationships between departments, and so on... That's what I would rather focus on.

Edited July 27, 2021 by Sarouan

[Lord_of_theRavenspire]

"Don't worry guys, this is NEW GW!"

[Sarouan]

1 minute ago, Lord_of_theRavenspire said:

"Don't worry guys, this is NEW GW!"

🙄 Always easier to oversimplify than trying to understand, as usual...

[stratigo]

10 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

Of course stories are important and James and Sophie's testimonies are interesting to keep in mind.

What I'm saying, though, is that behind the company, there are people - lots of people who still work nowadays at GW, unlike James and Sophie who managed to find another job (and James is very happy with his own company, wish him all the good in the world !). Advocating for actions against GW, like your posts constantly incite to do, has consequences for these people - who aren't in majority top management that will always be fine even if GW was about to fall.

James's last tweet is a good reminder of that as well. Current employees aren't apparently allowed to talk about it on social media, so better not try to harass them too much about it...

The point of my interventions here is : "don't get the wrong target". It's not GW who make their employees sign contracts, refuse payrises or fire them...it's very specific people behind these decisions, with a particular mindset (some who may not be working at GW anymore, they're not eternals either). James talking about GW's culture is important to keep in mind as well (I know this too, I knew the period of that famous "black / red book"...a good thing they don't use it anymore, indeed...but like I said, change takes a lot of time and remnants are still there, you can't erase them with a snap of fingers).

 

I guess you can see this as "GW defense by trying to dismiss what they did", but I never did dismiss these practices. In fact, I despise them, no matter who does that. The thing is...solution to me is more changing GW than trying to destroy it. Like having GW worker unions actually playing a role to represent their voice within GW, and not just all powerful managers. Having more work about the organization, restoring healthier relationships between departments, and so on... That's what I would rather focus on.

XD. 

 

I think you have decided what I post says different things then what I actually say because there's no connection.

 

I indeed said people shouldn't feel the need to stop buying from GW (eg try to destroy it). But I guess you missed that.

 

Also, it is GW that makes those decisions, because the people who make those decisions are the ones that decide what GW does and does not do. No designer has much or any say in the way the company is run. 

[Sarouan]

34 minutes ago, stratigo said:

I think you have decided what I post says different things then what I actually say because there's no connection.

No connection ? You wrote this, though :

Quote

This is a forum about GW games and going "Well everyone does it" Starts to sound like a defense of bad practices of GW by trying to dismiss them.

It's pretty clear about what you seem to have deciced about the said interventions are telling, I believe. And, I think, kinda directed at me since most of my interventions weren't going too much against GW specifically recently and "well everyone does it" could be easily seen as a simplification of them.

It was also an answer to that.

 

34 minutes ago, stratigo said:

I indeed said people shouldn't feel the need to stop buying from GW (eg try to destroy it). But I guess you missed that.

No I didn't. I just read your post as a whole. And be honest ; most of it focus on GW specifically. You can say it's the point and such, and you're right...but you could also have written it in a broader way and take advantage of the opportunity to speak more about the roots. You didn't, that was your choice.

 

34 minutes ago, stratigo said:

Also, it is GW that makes those decisions, because the people who make those decisions are the ones that decide what GW does and does not do. No designer has much or any say in the way the company is run. 

But if they did, it would still be stated they represent GW because they'd still work for the company. Even if its organization and the way they take decisions changed...

It's definitely a human question. And humans are never eternal, they die, leave or retire and others get hired / promoted to replace the losses. They don't necessarily have the same views than their predecessors. Internal change happen, but it takes time...

I stopped supporting GW before when their practices didn't suit with me, then I came back when Roundtree was around. Doesn't mean I think it's perfect, but it means I still have faith it can change in good. Call me optimistic if you want.

Does that mean I close my eyes about past practices ? Well no...but there's no point blaming something some former people did and who aren't there anymore on a company...It's good to remember, though, just in case it happens again in the future.

Edited July 27, 2021 by Sarouan

[Golub87]

3 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

It's definitely a human question. And humans are never eternal, they die, leave or retire and others get hired / promoted to replace the losses. Internal change happen, but it takes time...

This is a rather idealistic outlook. We live in a material universe and material conditions shape the way people act and who floats to the top. There is a reason why rich people and corporate executives consistently show traits of psychopathy and narcissism higher then the general population.

When the "game" is set up in a way to favor certain traits, those traits will show up more consistently and frequently than others. Turning up the heat is the best way to make sure that corpos think twice about their practices because it provides incentive to be different.

That said, GW failing would be only good for this industry and the community even within this capitalist reality.

[Sarouan]

36 minutes ago, Golub87 said:

This is a rather idealistic outlook.

I admit. But I'd rather have this outlook than the "destroy and kill them all" one...I'm too old for that kind of sad tale that only breeds pain and suffering.

 

EDIT : It's not much, but well...still good to know after all : from https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jul/27/warhammer-maker-games-workshop-hands-staff-5000-bonus-after-lockdown-sales-surge

Quote

Warhammer retailer Games Workshop is handing its shop workers, model makers, designers and support staff a £5,000 bonus after sales and profits surged during the pandemic.

The Nottingham-based company behind the popular fantasygame and Lord of the Rings figurines said its 2,600 ordinary workers would split a £10.6m special bonus on top of a £2.6m profit share.

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Sarouan

[stratigo]

1 hour ago, Sarouan said:

No connection ? You wrote this, though :

It's pretty clear about what you seem to have deciced about the said interventions are telling, I believe. And, I think, kinda directed at me since most of my interventions weren't going too much against GW specifically recently and "well everyone does it" could be easily seen as a simplification of them.

It was also an answer to that.

 

No I didn't. I just read your post as a whole. And be honest ; most of it focus on GW specifically. You can say it's the point and such, and you're right...but you could also have written it in a broader way and take advantage of the opportunity to speak more about the roots. You didn't, that was your choice.

 

But if they did, it would still be stated they represent GW because they'd still work for the company. Even if its organization and the way they take decisions changed...

It's definitely a human question. And humans are never eternal, they die, leave or retire and others get hired / promoted to replace the losses. They don't necessarily have the same views than their predecessors. Internal change happen, but it takes time...

I stopped supporting GW before when their practices didn't suit with me, then I came back when Roundtree was around. Doesn't mean I think it's perfect, but it means I still have faith it can change in good. Call me optimistic if you want.

Does that mean I close my eyes about past practices ? Well no...but there's no point blaming something some former people did and who aren't there anymore on a company...It's good to remember, though, just in case it happens again in the future.

It seems to me you are mostly arguing with your own conscience.

 

This is, again, a forum about GW. There are companies I think should be absolutely destroyed, their assets siezed, and their infrastructure demolished (Mostly oil companies), but GW isn't one of them, and like, how far do you think a thread would go if I started talking about how awful, say, BP is?

 

You are mostly qualifying any criticism to, far as I can tell, feel better about participating in the system. But, also, you don't have a choice to participate or not in any realistic measure, so this tension is all internal here.

[Gaz Taylor]

+++ Mod Hat On +++
Just a nudge here folks. Can we keep in the spotlight here and not wander off into the dark. Whilst not a positive topic, it is interesting one but can we keep it focused and on topic?