Should competitive list bring magic?

[LuminethMage]

Yes, you should still bring Wizards for competitive play - because right now it's probably more likely you'll face Archaon, Morathi etc. than Kroak or Teclis. And having a chance to unbind Mystic Shield or a Mindrazor can be quite helpful there.

Your Wizard also still has a chance to unbind their spells, and dispel Endless Spells, which magic heavy factions tend to use often. 

And most Wizards have useful abilities on their scrolls besides their spells, Oracular Visions doesn't become useless because Kroak is on the battlefield.

[stratigo]

Archaon is usually showing up in Tzeentch, which styles hard on anything but other mega caster factions

[LuminethMage]

15 minutes ago, stratigo said:

Archaon is usually showing up in Tzeentch, which styles hard on anything but other mega caster factions

Or, we have no idea yet, how the 3 meta will turn out.   All this “magic dom meta” talk is based on AoS2. An Archaon list in STD, with a focus on Varanguard, just went 5:0 in a tournament in Australia (with a Mark of Slaanesh), Guargants are apparently doing very well, Skaven with Stormfiends are a thing, you have Sylvaneth doing quite well (yup with magic, but not with anti-magic) and so on.

Probably Archaon in Tzeentch does also well, but the main point of that list is definitely not that is such a great anti-magic list.

But of course here at TGA - it’s Teclis and Kroak. And we already have to find a way to make make these less powerful and change the whole way magic is done in AoS. 

Your magic phase being shut down isn’t fun, and if you play locally in an area where you know a lot of people will play with Kroak, Tzeentch, Teclis etc., and you only have Wizard with no bonus, then it’s a good idea to see if you have to adjust your list. Like you’d have to do if you face very powerful melee or shooting lists. 

But right now telling people to not take Wizards in competitive play - because they might face Teclis in a tournament is just bad advice in my view. 

[mmimzie]

4 hours ago, Beliman said:

I disagree. As a KO player, the option to throw a 5+ CV spell that can give an extra VP (Battle Tactic) is better than what people think. Yes, you need to plan ahead but that's not a big deal.

Mystic shield is still ace and counters half of my army dmg (-1 rend). 

My point is that they are really powerful spells with high chance to be cast. 

And my point is that you can get this with a hero with a cp with no chance Eto counter. Infact you don't even need a hero to get hat +1 save. Armies fan give +1 save with out depending any additional resources and just having a model on the table. Deepkin gives most of thier army +1 save with 1 model, and no counter play for shooting. 

 

+1  save has high impact, but in the scheme of the game is not impactful because +1 save is everywhere. Mystic shield however is the only one that can be so easily countered and it's power varus depending on what army you play against and what wizards you bring. In the cost of the game +1 save is a low cost effect. 

 

Basicly the point is spells do things other things in the game do, but those other sources aren't so easily shut down for similar price per effect. 

[stratigo]

I play a faction that literally doesn't have wizards, so like magic dominence or not doesn't make much a difference for how I play. But I can see people who DO have wizards being frustrated that a number of common lists just shut them off.

 

But you are right, it is 3 plus save hero monsters that are bending the meta around them. Only some of them do megamagic. 

[Sapca]

On 7/18/2021 at 11:53 PM, Charleston said:

DoK highly benefit(ed?) from Mindrazor and so on

At 8 cast, shadowstone nerf(no rerolls) and max +1 cast .... AND mindrazor working just after charge. There's no fear from it. 3 nerfs on it from the powerhouse it was (7 cast, +1 cast and reroll1s, till next hero phase/not on charge).

We're more into Praying now, having lots of unbinds (Morathi2 at +1, Medusa2, SQ1, ArcaneTome1, HeroicWilpower,...) cast movement & utility spells (mirror dance/steed/default lore mist spell) maybe Metamorphosis to get monster out of cauldron for abilities (if it works with Arcane Tome, for now it looks like it does).

Our default MysticShield casters are now warlocks which became good investment (they have +1 cast at start) or Morathi and that's about it. Medusas with Shadowstone are there for MirrorDance if played for that.

Mindrazor might return when we get at least +2 caster / reroll caster / no unbind caster but not before. Too difficult to cast in first case.

[Beliman]

2 hours ago, mmimzie said:

And my point is that you can get this with a hero with a cp with no chance Eto counter. Infact you don't even need a hero to get hat +1 save. Armies fan give +1 save with out depending any additional resources and just having a model on the table. Deepkin gives most of thier army +1 save with 1 model, and no counter play for shooting. 

 

+1  save has high impact, but in the scheme of the game is not impactful because +1 save is everywhere. Mystic shield however is the only one that can be so easily countered and it's power varus depending on what army you play against and what wizards you bring. In the cost of the game +1 save is a low cost effect. 

 

Basicly the point is spells do things other things in the game do, but those other sources aren't so easily shut down for similar price per effect. 

But that's not true. +1 save that stacks with other sources  to remove Rend (that's the point) without spending any CP is really good, no matter what.

And giving Monster to accomplish your Battle Tactic is awesome too.

[Ragest]

Sometimes I think I play a different game.

Getting +1 save from a cast is HUGE, that can save you 2 cps in alternating turns or even 3 when doubled, can sinergyze with the CA aswell vs heavy hitters, having it when overwatched or buff 2 units in the same Shooting/combat phase.

[Rors]

I agree with Ragest. The utility of Mystic Shield is really good. It stacks ontop of all out defense and can also be used on a different unit. If use could use all out defense more than once a turn the spell would 'only' be saving command points, but given its only available for one unit in one phase, the access to it a second time is golden.

[yukishiro1]

Yeah, Mystic Shield is really good, probably too good for its difficulty honestly, especially when you consider that everyone knows it. Though GW appears to have a bit of a thing this edition for making the generic choices better than the non-generic ones, which I hope is just bad design but I am afraid is a signal of power creep to come. 

[LuminethMage]

17 hours ago, stratigo said:

I play a faction that literally doesn't have wizards, so like magic dominence or not doesn't make much a difference for how I play. But I can see people who DO have wizards being frustrated that a number of common lists just shut them off.

 

But you are right, it is 3 plus save hero monsters that are bending the meta around them. Only some of them do megamagic. 

Agreed, in a local meta, it can be bad for you, if you depend on "normal" Wizards to do pretty essential casts, but face a lot of anti-magic opponents.

We had that in my last game. I play a Zaitrec list with almost everyone being a Wizard (without Teclis though) because I like playing with mages and spells. But it has the side effect that in our last game, my opponent, who plays SBL could cast maybe 3,4 spells over the whole game because I rolled slightly above average with my unbinds, and that was enough to almost totally shut him down in the magic phase. Which isn't fun - especially as SBL does depend partially on their spells. So, he'll try to change his list accordingly. And maybe I also do, to make it less of an anti-magic list, if that doesn't work out.

But I don't think that means a) it's a problem generally in competitive play (let's see what happens there), and b) that you can't have fun in general. As long as games are still win-able even if the magic phase is a bit loop-sided, it's ok. In the same way as the shooting or melee phase can be loop sided and it still can be a fun match. I wouldn't win a straight up melee brawl against with mine for example against strong melee lists.

I think it's great that we have that kind of faction and list variety, and as long as there are list building options available to adapt, it's ok. That can be part of the fun. Even if on the downside it can sometimes be a bit frustrating. 

Edited July 22, 2021 by LuminethMage

[LuminethMage]

double post, sorry. 

Edited July 22, 2021 by LuminethMage

[grimgold]

21 hours ago, Ragest said:

Sometimes I think I play a different game.

Getting +1 save from a cast is HUGE, that can save you 2 cps in alternating turns or even 3 when doubled, can sinergyze with the CA aswell vs heavy hitters, having it when overwatched or buff 2 units in the same Shooting/combat phase.

That's true, but my faction (StD Tzneetch despoilers) can pop off 3 +1 to saves via prayers on 2+ with no counter available. It's why I'm really thinking of giving someone in my list the book and leaving my sorcs on the bench, oracular visions doesn't justify the cost when I have better options.