Free command

[frostfire]

Some abilities allow certain unit to "receive" a command without a command being issued or a command point being spent, does it surpass the core rule that you can only use the same CA once per phase as it let certain unit "receive" the command without actually "using" the CA? 

[Marcvs]

1 hour ago, Aelfric said:

Surely, if a unit receives the benefit of a Command Ability but the CA hasn't been issued, then it hasn't been used, has it?  You can only use each CA once per phase, but it's only been received, not "used"; nobody has used it.

Yes, you (as in, the player) used it, and this is exactly how it is worded in 6.1 ("In addition, you cannot use the same command ability more than once in the same phase (even for different units)"). How can a command abilty produce any effect if you (the player) have not used it?

1 hour ago, Aelfric said:

What's the point of saying the Order hasn't been issued if you can't use it again anyway.

The point is that you don't need a leader / champion to activate it and if you have one in range, they can use a different command ability in the same phase.

2 hours ago, The Red King said:

That depends on where it's coming from. If the second ability is being triggered by an ABILITY on a warscroll than according to the rule blurb directly to the right of 1.6 [abilities and effects]: "If the effect of an ability contradicts a core rule, then the effect takes precedence."

As we discussed in the other topic: this argument is premised on the existence of a contradiction between a given warscroll ability and the rule. But there is no contradiction here: the ability tells you you can use a command ability without it being issued and without a command point being spent. It doesn't say that you can use it again in the same phase and/or that it counts as not having been used. No contradiction means the general rule still applies (you cannot use the same command ability more than once in the same phase)

Edited July 13, 2021 by Marcvs

[Cosmicsheep]

This topic was discussed on a previous thread regarding Unleash Hell. As stated by @Paul Buckler a CA can only be used once

[Marcvs]

9 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

But the point is the Command Ability hasn't been used, only the effect - I haven't issued the Command from any of my units.  It's not the Command Ability that's producing the effect; it's the ability on the Battalion Warscroll that allows the effect to be used.  It specifically says that the Command Ability hasn't been issued, and therefore, not used. 

The rule has three limitations:

• A model cannot issue more than 1 command in the same phase
• a unit cannot receive more than 1 command in the same phase.
• In addition, you cannot use the same command ability more than once in the same phase (even for different units)

The "in addition" makes it clear that the third limitation is not already covered by the two previous ones. Hence, there is no basis for your statement "the Command Ability hasn't been issued, and therefore, not used". What part of the rule establishes a connection between "issue" and "use" (two separate sentences)? Your interpretation never explains how you are able to completely erase the last sentence of the rule.

Also, your sentence here

15 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

I haven't issued the Command from any of my units

completely misrepresents the rule. It is never the player who issues a command, champions, heroes, generals and totems do. So, of course you haven't issued the command, you have used it.

Finally, the action of using a command ability is described as follows:

"To use a command ability, you must spend 1 command point, pick 1 friendly model to issue the command, and pick 1 friendly unit to receive the command."

So, even if the battalion/warscroll allows you to skip two of the conditions(1 CP, 1 friendly model to issue) it explicitly mentions the fact that the unit is receiving the command (for instance, "1 unit from this battalion can receive the All-out Attack or Unleash Hell command") therefore falling into the definition of "using a command ability". Essentially using the battalion/warscroll changes the action of using to:

"To use a command ability, you must pick 1 friendly unit to receive the command."

 

 

[Zeblasky]

2 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

The unit has still RECEIVED the ability. It cannot receive any more this phase. Therefore it has still been USED.

Here's the thing though. Nowhere it is said that unit received a command ABILITY. You cannot ussue more that 1 COMMAND, you cannot receive more than 1 COMMAND, yet you cannot use the same COMMAND ABILITY more than once per phase, that's the exact wording. And in warscroll abilities unit receives COMMAND once again. Seems like quite a deliberate wording, meaning that receiving COMMAND and using COMMAND ABILITY are different things. You can receive a command due to using a command ability or because of a batalion or warscroll ability, that gives the same effect, while not being a command ability. Add in the fact that the whole 6.1 rule is named "using command abilities" and it defines this as a sequence of spending CP, issuing command and receiving command. So you are not using a CA either way, at best you are using COMMAND, after which you cannot receive any other COMMAND in the same phase.

 

[Paul Buckler]

No you can only use a command ability 1/phase (6.1 last sentence)

This just lets you use them if you are out of CP, or have no hero/champion in the unit to issue them.

 

[Marcvs]

30 minutes ago, The Red King said:

I dont understand how there isnt a contradiction between "you can issue the command ability when X" and "you can only issue any command ability once".

that's because you reformulated what the warscroll / battalion says.  what they actually says is:

"[condition] this unit can receive the Unleash Hell command without the command being issued and without a command point being spent"

or

"1 unit from this battalion can receive the All-out Attack or Unleash Hell command without the command being issued and without a command point being spent"

so there is no contradiction between saying (I simplify):

"when X you can use this ability for free" and "you can use this ability once per turn", because you can comply with both of them at the same time.

EDIT: ok so, analogies are always risky and potentially confusing but just to clarify my point before heading to bed:

1) Parking lot, 1$/hour. Cars only

2) You can park for free on Sundays.

Does this mean that you can park your truck in the parking lot on Sundays because rule 2 says "you can park [...] on Sundays" ?

Edited July 14, 2021 by Marcvs

[Zeblasky]

Oh god this again.

 

For @frostfire
- some people say that this type of ability uses CA only once and for the rest of the phase, just without spending CP. Some other think that those abilities trigger every time the conditions are met for every unit, giving effects of such CAs with no limitations. The quasi-consencus is that those abilities can trigger if a unit has not received any CA in this phase yet, and unit cannot receive a CA afterwards. Yet every unit with such ability can trigger it once and this CA can be used for a CP on other unit. Yea, it's weird, but at least this makes some sence.

 

It the end, pray for a FAQ, this issue is a mess either way.

[Liquidsteel]

This is how the rules are worded in the Core Rules under 6.1:

"To use a command ability, you must spend 1 command point, pick 1 friendly model to ISSUE the command,
and pick 1 friendly unit to RECEIVE the command."

See also:

"Each command ability will say when it can be used and what effect it has on the unit that receives it.
A model cannot issue more than 1 command in the same phase and a unit cannot receive more than 1
command in the same phase. In addition, you cannot use the same command ability more than once in the
same phase (even for different units)."

The unit has still RECEIVED the ability. It cannot receive any more this phase. Therefore it has still been USED.

Nobody ISSUED it, meaning the unit that would have ISSUED it can still ISSUE another command elsewhere in the phase.

No Command Point is spent, saving you the Point to be spent elsewhere, but not for the same ability.

 

It saves you a CP, and provides flexibility by allowing a unit without a champion to push out independently, or free up a nearby Hero to ISSUE a command elsewhere.

[Zeblasky]

1 hour ago, Marcvs said:

• In addition, you cannot use the same command ability more than once in the same phase (even for different units) (not contradicted by the warscroll)

 

True, this rule is not contradicted. But as I've said above, you've not using a COMMAND ABILITY, you're receiving a COMMAND, which is a different thing due to the rule wording.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Zeblasky

[JackStreicher]

21 minutes ago, Lich King said:

You can use the benefits of a command  ability without it ever being issues ( and therefore not received). It’s a freebie. Similar to Command Bubbles - only the hero issues and receives , nearby units simply benefit from that ability. 

They do receive it. So it‘s not a freeby in the sense that it blocks the same Command ability from being used again.

[Lich King]

3 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

They do receive it. So it‘s not a freeby in the sense that it blocks the same Command ability from being used again.

Hey thanks for the clearing up - I think you are right, the command is received , so your unit can issue another command but not receive in same phase .

[The Red King]

1 hour ago, Marcvs said:

Yes, you (as in, the player) used it, and this is exactly how it is worded in 6.1 ("In addition, you cannot use the same command ability more than once in the same phase (even for different units)"). How can a command abilty produce any effect if you (the player) have not used it?

The point is that you don't need a leader / champion to activate it and if you have one in range, they can use a different command ability in the same phase.

As we discussed in the other topic: this argument is premised on the existence of a contradiction between a given warscroll ability and the rule. But there is no contradiction here: the ability tells you you can use a command ability without it being issued and without a command point being spent. It doesn't say that you can use it again in the same phase and/or that it counts as not having been used. No contradiction means the general rule still applies (you cannot use the same command ability more than once in the same phase)

I dont understand how there isnt a contradiction between "you can issue the command ability when X" and "you can only issue any command ability once".

 

"I activate [ability]. You cant because the core rules say you can't issue an ability more than once." 

I'm not going to qoute the definition of contradiction but that meets it in every sense of the word I can think of.

[The Red King]

1 hour ago, Marcvs said:

that's because you reformulated what the warscroll / battalion says.  what they actually says is:

"[condition] this unit can receive the Unleash Hell command without the command being issued and without a command point being spent"

or

"1 unit from this battalion can receive the All-out Attack or Unleash Hell command without the command being issued and without a command point being spent"

so there is no contradiction between saying (I simplify):

"when X you can use this ability for free" and "you can use this ability once per turn", because you can comply with both of them at the same time.

EDIT: ok so, analogies are always risky and potentially confusing but just to clarify my point before heading to bed:

1) Parking lot, 1$/hour. Cars only

2) You can park for free on Sundays.

Does this mean that you can park your truck in the parking lot on Sundays because rule 2 says "you can park [...] on Sundays" ?

I think I should clarify I was referring to the thread that the above poster mentioned which was specifically about Sisters of the watch "loose until the last" not the batallion one that most people are referring to in which case I agree. The batallion isnt a bold face ABILITY as described in the core rules. Sorry for the confusion. 

[JackStreicher]

it only says hasn't been issued, not that it hasn't been used.

The whole not issued and not received is worded in a way that :
a.) It does not block the use of other Command Abilities
b.) You can even use those if you were roared at (though no batallion grants any bonus that could be used in the combat phase anyway).

Yet I believe this needs an FAQ since it might clash with the inbuild stand and shoot of certain units?

---

 

Edit Edit: 
At least the german core rules state that a Ability can only be used  if one spends a command point, and one needs one issuer and one receiver. So technically the Warscroll Command Ability would not count as being used.

English version: To use a command ability you must spent 1 cp, need an issuer and a receiver.

---> This is pretty clear tbh. The command ability is not used if you even one of those 3 does not apply. This also works with a Vyrkos Ability that let's a general  USE the CA without a CP beign spent

As a result the Warscroll CA is not used only received. (this is still kidn of bad for Sisters of the watch and freeguild guard...)

Still this feels like it needs clarification in a FAQ

Edited July 14, 2021 by JackStreicher

[zilberfrid]

The text on the warscroll is basically useless now, so I think it's best to use the previous text on the warscroll as long as that unit didn't receive another command. It's the middle road, makes doubling of the unit less punishing but doesn't allow them to shoot everything that gets close.

[Marcvs]

18 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

English version: To use a command ability you must spent 1 cp, need an issuer and a receiver.

 

---> This is pretty clear tbh. The command ability is not used if you even one of those 3 does not apply. This also works with a Vyrkos Ability that let's a general  USE the CA without a CP beign spent

As a result the Warscroll CA is not used only received. (this is still kidn of bad for Sisters of the watch and freeguild guard...)

Still this feels like it needs clarification in a FAQ

"To use a command ability you must spent 1 cp, need an issuer and a receiver" so, if I were to follow your reasoning, my conclusion would not be that the ability doesn't count as being used while still producing its effects, instead I would say since you must do A, B, C in order to use it, and you are NOT doing it, then you cannot use the ability at all.

[Zeblasky]

47 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

 instead I would say since you must do A, B, C in order to use it, and you are NOT doing it, then you cannot use the ability at all.

And then you remember than warscroll rules take precedence, and by your logic Sisters and Handgunners have completely unlimited overwatch because they are not using those rules at all, heh.

Mind you, I do not think that they do have unlimited overwatch, merely that your logic makes them so.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Zeblasky

[Marcvs]

27 minutes ago, Zeblasky said:

And then you remember than warscroll rules take precedence, and by your logic Sisters and Handgunners have completely unlimited overwatch because they are not using those rules at all, heh.

Mind you, I do not think that they do have unlimited overwatch, merely that your logic makes them so.

nope, my logic is what I explained before: at no point the warscroll ability contradicts the "only once per phase" rule so there is no question of precedence. ALL core rules which are not explictly negated by a warscroll apply so:

• You must spend 1 command point (contradicted by the warscroll)
• A model cannot issue more than 1 command in the same phase (contradicted by the warscroll)
• a unit cannot receive more than 1 command in the same phase (not contradicted by the warscroll)
• In addition, you cannot use the same command ability more than once in the same phase (even for different units) (not contradicted by the warscroll)

 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Marcvs

[Marcvs]

17 minutes ago, Zeblasky said:

True, this rule is not contradicted. But as I've said above, you've not using a COMMAND ABILITY, you're receiving a COMMAND, which is a different thing due to the rule wording.

ohhh I like this argument!

[Aelfric]

36 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

Yes, you (as in, the player) used it, and this is exactly how it is worded in 6.1 ("In addition, you cannot use the same command ability more than once in the same phase (even for different units)"). How can a command abilty produce any effect if you (the player) have not used it?

But the point is the Command Ability hasn't been used, only the effect - I haven't issued the Command from any of my units.  It's not the Command Ability that's producing the effect; it's the ability on the Battalion Warscroll that allows the effect to be used.  It specifically says that the Command Ability hasn't been issued, and therefore, not used. 

[Aelfric]

52 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

The rule has three limitations:

• A model cannot issue more than 1 command in the same phase
• a unit cannot receive more than 1 command in the same phase.
• In addition, you cannot use the same command ability more than once in the same phase (even for different units)

The "in addition" makes it clear that the third limitation is not already covered by the two previous ones. Hence, there is no basis for your statement "the Command Ability hasn't been issued, and therefore, not used". What part of the rule establishes a connection between "issue" and "use" (two separate sentences)? Your interpretation never explains how you are able to completely erase the last sentence of the rule.

Also, your sentence here

completely misrepresents the rule. It is never the player who issues a command, champions, heroes, generals and totems do. So, of course you haven't issued the command, you have used it.

Finally, the action of using a command ability is described as follows:

"To use a command ability, you must spend 1 command point, pick 1 friendly model to issue the command, and pick 1 friendly unit to receive the command."

So, even if the battalion/warscroll allows you to skip two of the conditions(1 CP, 1 friendly model to issue) it explicitly mentions the fact that the unit is receiving the command (for instance, "1 unit from this battalion can receive the All-out Attack or Unleash Hell command") therefore falling into the definition of "using a command ability". Essentially using the battalion/warscroll changes the action of using to:

"To use a command ability, you must pick 1 friendly unit to receive the command."

 

 

You mention the three limitations.  In this situation, the first one hasn't been invoked as the command hasn't been issued from any of my units.  The second has been invoked, which means the unit given the ability cannot be the recipient of another command.  The third limitation is entirely dependent on the interpretation of the word "use".  My opinion is that for a command ability to be used, it has to be issued.  The core battalions allow a unit to receive the ability, but the command isn't issued and therefore, in my opinion, hasn't been used.  

If I have a token for a free cup of coffee, I receive the coffee but they don't ask for the token, then I haven't used the token, even though I have received the coffee: which means I could give it to someone else for their free coffee.

I think we shall just have to agree to disagree and eventually GW will give a definitive answer.

 

[Lich King]

You can use the benefits of a command  ability without it ever being issues ( and therefore not received). It’s a freebie. Similar to Command Bubbles - only the hero issues and receives , nearby units simply benefit from that ability. 

[The Red King]

That depends on where it's coming from. If the second ability is being triggered by an ABILITY on a warscroll than according to the rule blurb directly to the right of 1.6 [abilities and effects]: "If the effect of an ability contradicts a core rule, then the effect takes precedence."

 

So it's  pretty unclear but leaning towards if an ability causes you to use the command ability more than once per phase than it takes precedence over the core rule (6.1).

[Aelfric]

Surely, if a unit receives the benefit of a Command Ability but the CA hasn't been issued, then it hasn't been used, has it?  You can only use each CA once per phase, but it's only been received, not "used"; nobody has used it.  In the Core Battalions, for example, you receive the "Command", but not the "Command Ability".   What's the point of saying the Order hasn't been issued if you can't use it again anyway.