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Aspirant Snaeper

How do you use your units? (General Tactical Discussion)

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 Hello all, thank you for reading! 

I've started this thread as I'm fairly new to Tabletop gaming despite having played a handful of 40k games a few years ago (and owning a size-able army of dust collectors). I was hoping to create a discussion where we could share the results of our battles to help each other learn and make our Chaos units more effective when on the battlefield. 

This thread will be used to discuss Tactical Theories (ex: I believe unit X is effective in scenario Y based on statistical probability) as well sharing the results of match ups of games we've played, recollecting our mistakes and the outcomes of each engagement and round of battle. 

Please keep the discussion civil and try to make sure you state if any point of your discussion is a theory, or based on actual experience. Both are welcome as long as you are quite clear about which one your topic falls under. 

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I'll get things started by discussing Daemon Princes! This is a unit that applies to a lot of Chaos armies so I figured I'd share my experiences with mine. 

My Daemon Prince has served me in most of the games I've played thus-far, having been one of the first models I purchased, assembled and painted. I equipped him with the sword and usually dedicate him to Undivided or Khorne for thematic reasons. 

EXPERIENCE -

Engagement 1: Soul-Eater Daemon Prince vs Coven Throne (and then some...).

Long story short, dedicating him to Khorne (in my case) would have been a far more intelligent choice before sending him into this match up. I sent him in way over his head and turned him into an expensive tar pit for a turn before he was wiped from the board. 

THEORY - Giving a boost to hit or to wound would've really helped in this scenario, but I should've been much wiser and avoided the throne altogether, especially when Skarbrand is on the table. Keep your Daemon Princes (especially your soul eaters), engaged with infantry. 

Engagement 2: Khornate Daemon Prince vs Treelord Ancient 

Having a better handle on my DP for this game in terms of his strengths and weaknesses, I used my big red bruiser to distract a Treelord Ancient and found it worked remarkably well. His high-flying movement put him at the edge of the board and caused the old tree to disconnect from most of his Wanderer allies. The DP stripped quite a few wounds off of the monster vegetable before falling to the Ancient. 

THEORY - Paint and Wings might be important for this one. Seeing a big red monster moving across the table could cause a primal instinct within us to protect ourselves. On a more serious note, a Khornate/Nurgle (even Slaanesh?) DP seems to be a credible threat to independent characters and some squishier monsters. 

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QUESTIONS

My opponents consist of a GA: Death player (mostly Malignants and Skeletons), Wanderer's/Sylvaneth player, and Nurgle - Dwarf - Ork player. We also have the occasional Seraphon and Stormcast armies on the board. What type of units would you send a Khornate or Undivided Daemon Prince after typically? Nurgle in particular has not been a pleasant foe. 

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I look forward to a great deal of tactical discussion! I'll be back to post more about my StD, KB and DoK forces. 

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His high movment and decent combat potential make him a great support piece able to move around fast normally over terrain/units to a combat that potentially is not going your way.

His major weakness is taking a hero slot were as i could take a khorgorath for 80pts and get similar results etc

 

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I like having a prince as he's in that lower tier monster that doesn't weaken due to wounds but as such I think treating as a powerful independent character is wise.

As mentioned he has the same survivability as a Khorgorath despite being twice the points in match play. I feel from having hard them against a variety of foes that the undivided one, much as I like the theme doesn't get the chance to heal often enough due to the fickle nature of landing the final blow. I would also say that having the axe on him is one of very few units in slaves to darkness lists that have a -2 rend which can be needed for opponents with good save.

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Excellent points,  I hadn't even considered comparing him to the Khorgorath! That unit seems to get a bad rep as a Monster, as it gets compared with the higher-wound beasts that put out a lot more damage. This is, of course, mitigated by having multiple Khorgorath's in a unit, as I believe it's one of the few monsters that can be grouped (in Chaos anyways). 

On that note, how does everyone typically use their Khorgorath? (Theory) It seems like a great unit to support in combat, taking on a weaker enemy or IC and using it's missle attack to strike at a horde being engaged by a nearby allied unit. I haven't had much of a chance to use mine, actually, as precedence is typically taken to include my Soul Grinder, Chimera or Skarbrand. 

What types of units do you usually surround a Khorgorath or Daemon Prince with? What types of units do you target? 

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11 hours ago, Aspirant Snaeper said:

On that note, how does everyone typically use their Khorgorath?

Tarpitting.  I've never really found them particularly fantastic at killing things, but they're great at quickly getting into somebodies face and holding a unit up!  They're also a large monster that can draw your opponent into targeting in preference to your other more punchy units.  Quite fancy trying out the Skulltake Battalion at some point and see how the 8 attacks would work.

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I was surprised by the lack of damage potential on them. Such a nice model though. I'm just concerned how long it took for the hell brute to be released

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I'm also a 3 Khorgorath fan, they are low threat enough that the opponent will often let them do their thing, any time you can get them in at the side of a larger melee fight is nice, those -1 bravery debuffs are actually potentially very valuable against nearby high value troops (eg stormcast). I also like to run Skaarac the Bloodborn, but at 500pts he needs some careful attention. He can put out his own -2 bravery debuff, and in the last battle I played he and a regular Khorgorath combined to put a -3 bravery on a unit of nearby Fulminators, of which the full extra 3 models ran away, thats 360 points my opponent lost in a single battleshock roll to those beasts.

Khorgoraths before the points came in = underwhelming for 8W, but at only 80pts 10pts/wound with ranged attack, slow heal and bravery debuff and able to be in units, they are very interesting.

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5 hours ago, Wotyn said:

I'm also a 3 Khorgorath fan, they are low threat enough that the opponent will often let them do their thing, any time you can get them in at the side of a larger melee fight is nice, those -1 bravery debuffs are actually potentially very valuable against nearby high value troops (eg stormcast). I also like to run Skaarac the Bloodborn, but at 500pts he needs some careful attention. He can put out his own -2 bravery debuff, and in the last battle I played he and a regular Khorgorath combined to put a -3 bravery on a unit of nearby Fulminators, of which the full extra 3 models ran away, thats 360 points my opponent lost in a single battleshock roll to those beasts.

Khorgoraths before the points came in = underwhelming for 8W, but at only 80pts 10pts/wound with ranged attack, slow heal and bravery debuff and able to be in units, they are very interesting.

Finally someone else.

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Interesting to note the stacking Bravery Debuff with Skaraac. Definitely valuable against Death and Daemon armies. 

 

They are certainly a steal at 80 points. If your opponent ignores them, he pays. But if he focusses too much on them, he's wasting effort on a cheap unit. I'll definitely be giving mine a try, especially once he's painted.

Edited by Aspirant Snaeper

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Now to take the conversation in a different direction.

I recently discovered a potent Orruk combination that involves a single unit being capable of dispatching a maximum potential of 240 arrows in a single turn (120 in the hero phase, 120 again in the shooting). 

Has anyone come up against a list capable of this? How have you dealt with it? How would you try to deal with it? What did their opponent do to deal with it if you were spectating it?

This combination seems to be popular at varying point levels and it might only be a matter of time before we meet it once.

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7 minutes ago, Aspirant Snaeper said:

Now to take the conversation in a different direction.

I recently discovered a potent Orruk combination that involves a single unit being capable of dispatching a maximum potential of 240 arrows in a single turn (120 in the hero phase, 120 again in the shooting). 

Has anyone come up against a list capable of this? How have you dealt with it? How would you try to deal with it? What did their opponent do to deal with it if you were spectating it?

This combination seems to be popular at varying point levels and it might only be a matter of time before we meet it once.

https://m.reddit.com/r/ageofsigmar/comments/4x05wm/none_of_my_local_tos_will_let_me_play_my_list/

This is the one?

Hopefully there's a good amount of terrain, or you're playing Nurgle! As one poster in the reddit thread mentioned, Plaguebearers can get the Arrowboyz to -2 to hit, and with 5+ to hit base, they won't be able to hit them at all!

As for Chaos armies other than Nurgle, I don't know!

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Well thats a variation of it, yes.

I thought that, given most of the points are sunk into one or two arrowboy units, it would be ideal to try to pick off "the spares" (Regular orruks) first with your own ranged units, then charging in with some speedier stuff. Anything that buffs charges would help, and a Slaughterpriest pulling them closer to you in YOUR turn would be quite advantageous.

I could see a Soul Grinder paired with Blood/Skullcrushers working. Bringing as many small units as you can might also help. A 40 boy unit can fire twice a turn, but if you're only losing a single character here and some bloodreavers there, what have they really done? And if you give it nothing to shoot at, it will move, which opens the door for you to control that movement with bait.

In high point games with loads of Arrowboys, that might require some new tactics.... Or new opponents.

Edited by Aspirant Snaeper

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7 hours ago, James McPherson said:

theres a new Khorgorath mult part plastic kit on its way at some point.

Really looking forward to this - rumour is that it's the same as the Chaos Spawn kit and will make two models :)

2 hours ago, Aspirant Snaeper said:

Now to take the conversation in a different direction.

I recently discovered a potent Orruk combination that involves a single unit being capable of dispatching a maximum potential of 240 arrows in a single turn (120 in the hero phase, 120 again in the shooting). 

Has anyone come up against a list capable of this? How have you dealt with it? How would you try to deal with it? What did their opponent do to deal with it if you were spectating it?

This combination seems to be popular at varying point levels and it might only be a matter of time before we meet it once.

Looking at the list linked (works out around the 1k points), you could actually negate that massive unit of arrowboys with a Daemonsmith's Ash Cloud spell (-2 to hit) or a unit of 30+ plaguebearers.  Combine that with the allegiance trait that puts a -1 to hit for the first turn would mean you've got a little more chance to survive (plus prevents them from gaining the extra attack for rolling a 6) whilst the Daemonsmith gets into range (20" range means you could theoretically keep him from harm).

If I knew I was going against an opponent playing a beardy list like this, it'd be quite a challenge to counter.  I reckon either an army that can get into combat quickly (e.g. beastmen/chariots) or one that can cope with that amount of firepower (e.g. nurgle).  Skullcannons would be useful as that big unit will drop in damage output once it starts to lose models.  A Hellcannon also has the potential for you to remove his general (removing the additional attacks on a to hit of 6).

Personally I feel the key would be to make them go first (aka use a battalion) - 18" range on those bows means they'll not be able to shoot in the hero phase and going second also means you may get a double turn which would be essential if you have a combat focused army, providing you can survive that one shooting phase (improved with the trait mentioned above).  I think they're only 6" move, so if you set the army 1" back from the "edge" of my deploy-able zone they'd not be in range to shoot either (meaning they'll likely run).  Smack an Ash Cloud on them and then kick them in the teef.  Worst case scenario is that they don't move and let you come to them.

1 hour ago, Aspirant Snaeper said:

A 40 boy unit can fire twice a turn, but if you're only losing a single character here and some bloodreavers there, what have they really done?

Your opponent can choose to split their attacks however they want so could shoot as everything in range.  Initially I thought Bloodreavers would be a good shout, however with no save of any kind you'll be removing them by the handful.  Marauders would actually be a better shout as they at least have a base save.

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Quote

Looking at the list linked (works out around the 1k points), you could actually negate that massive unit of arrowboys with a Daemonsmith's Ash Cloud spell (-2 to hit) 

Good luck actually getting in range to cast it (shooting>>>>>magic). This is what the Balewind Vortex is needed for.

The new Gaunt Summoner could do about 17 mortal wounds to them with one spell and 2 more with Arcane Bolt, so that's 9 dead. Bravery 5 and 31 models means bravery 8, so on average 4.5 more will flee. This drops them to 27 models. Not great.

The true hard counter is a pair of Treelord Ancients with Oaken Armour going in with 2+ rerollable saves - roll your stupid 120 shots, 1 in 36 will go through the armour.

Quote

Personally I feel the key would be to make them go first (aka use a battalion) - 18" range on those bows means they'll not be able to shoot in the hero phase and going second also means you may get a double turn which would be essential if you have a combat focused army, providing you can survive that one shooting phase (improved with the trait mentioned above). 

GW have really dropped the ball on this one. What they would do is cast Hand of Gork on them (double movement), then use the Kunning Rukk to move them forward 10 inches in the hero phase, then move another 10 inches in the movement phase, then shoot.

They have their own "whole army as a single drop" formations - so they could force you to go first.

100 points for 20 wounds and a 6+ ward is beyond obscene.

Edited by Nico

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18 minutes ago, Nico said:

Good luck actually getting in range to cast it (shooting>>>>>magic). This is what the Balewind Vortex is needed for.

Ash cloud is 20" so has a small range advantage over the bows - glade guard are a bit more difficult ;)

21 minutes ago, Nico said:

GW have really dropped the ball on this one. What they would do is cast Hand of Gork on them (double movement), then use the Kunning Rukk to move them forward 10 inches in the hero phase, then move another 10 inches in the movement phase, then shoot.

They have their own "whole army as a single drop" formations - so they could force you to go first.

Would still prevent them shooting in the hero phase for the first turn.  Plus I was basing my musings on the list linked on Reddit which didn't mention a formation.  I guess if you were made to go first you could not move your army and try and snipe his wizard and general off :P

I do completely agree though, I think the ability, shooting and points does make it a bit crazy powerful! 

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