Unleash Hell, might be worth a look at?

[PlasticCraic]

5 hours ago, readercolin said:

All this being said, I haven't played against Lumineth Sentinals with unleash hell.  And EVERYTHING that people have been complaining about as a "Big Problem" has been Sentinels with unleash hell.

Sentinels are the most eyebrow-raising example, but hardly the only one.  See below Neil's comments in response to somebody else saying that Irondrakes were the only problem:

On 7/8/2021 at 8:04 PM, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

People are also worried about all the other shooting units that were already good before. So, bow snakes in DoK, Skinks in Seraphon and Flamers in Tzeentch. There is also a possibility that Stormcast will be quite good at shooting after their new battletome comes out, and Kruleboyz also get units with mortals wounds on hit shooting.

There are also a bunch of units that were not previously super scary because of their short range, but now become quite hard to deal with on the charge. Skaven has a bunch of those, like Warpfire Throwers and Thanquol, I believe. Also the Warp Lightning Cannon. The Gyrocopter in Cities of Sigmar is another example.

It's a spread of units with very strong stats that don't care about neg 1 to Hit (e.g. Irondrakes), or mortal wound shooting that also doesn't care about neg 1 to Hit, either because it is fishing for 5s and 6s (Sentinel, Snakes) or just doesn't roll to Hit (Gyrocopters, Skaven).  

So there really are multiple examples, which is the core point.  The rule itself, as currently written, it too skewed and it's not realistic to expect every current and future unit to be reasonable within the extremely generous parameters it sets.  I do like a lot of the other suggestions (such as removing Battleline status from Sentinels), but the fact is when the net has this many gaping holes in it, something is bound to slip through.  Why make it this hard for themselves to catch everything, and limit the design space of all future shooting units to take this into account?

So for that reason, I think the OP's suggestion that you should at least have to charge the overwatching unit is very fair.

Also, as somewhat of a tangent, I've seen a lot of people talking about the smaller table size as a mitigating factor in shooting's overall standing.  I honestly haven't found that having any tangible impact in the games I've played - you start a similar distance apart, and my armies are fighting maybe turn 1 or at the latest turn 2 either way.  If anything, there's slightly less space to deep strike in behind someone which helps protect shooting units, but it hasn't really been a factor.

What is a factor in favour of combat is Rally.  I've not seen anyone talking about this, but it's a subtle nudge towards melee because when you're within 3", they can't use Rally.  If most / all of your output is coming from shooting, your opponent is likely to be able to continuously Rally and severely dent your capacity to wipe a unit off an objective at range.

Counterpoint to that is your opponent might be able to tag 'n' bang: if they can corner tag your low-output unit with Aetherwings you might be screwed, but I think at that point we really are getting into an edge case unit that just needs its points substantially increased.

[yukishiro1]

Gryos do roll to hit, they just get a number of attacks equal to the number of models from the unit in range. They're not actually very good targets for unleash hell most of the time, you can only take 2 in a unit, hit on 4s (i.e. 5s), wound on 3s, so even if the whole unit is in range of the guns on both copters, you're only getting a number of wounds equal to 1/2 the number of models in the unit (at -1 rend, 1 damage). Basically they're only remotely scary to hordes with junky saves, and even then, the gun is only 8" range so pretty much have to be charged themselves to be able to make good use of it. If 40 clan rats charge two copters you'll kill like 20, but how often does that happen? Meanwhile against something like ardboyz you'll kill like 1 for every 5 models. Hardly too scary. 

If they're buffed by a hurricanum and a runepriest to get +1 to hit and rend -2, they become slightly scarier, but still only to 1W models. Against anything else, they're a tickle. 

Edited July 16, 2021 by yukishiro1

[stratigo]

4 hours ago, Orkmann said:

Unleash hell wont ruin the game and is perfectly fine in casual games. But the truth is everything is fine in a casual setting, at least if the players make some effort prior to the game to balance your lists.

When it comes to judging, whether a game mechanism is too strong or not, you have to look at competitive play. Sentinels and dakka sneaks are rightly in the focus, but they are not the only offenders.  Armies with access to aura buffs will not care much with -1 to hit. Irondrakes or even stuffs like 30 reavers or a unit of 20 pinks (in some builds) will do plenty of damage upon unleashing hell.

Im playing combat armies so I admit I'm biased, but when I'm looking at the combat vs shooting situation, it is clear to me that shooting came out much better in aos3, so I dont see why this extremely generous overwatch was necessary in the game. Redeploy, only one cp reroll in the charge phase, shackles, and the various half charge abilities/spells can make it very difficult to get things into combat. On the other hand, there is no similar counter against shooting except of Idoneth. I appreciate that the output of some shooting armies have dropped a lot, but that is due to the save stacking rules, and combat units suffer from that as well.

In think unleash hell is too strong, because it gives you a free shooting without risking anything and the price of a CP is just too low. Besides of the actual extra damage, It is also encouraging the use of certain shooty castle/point and click type of lists, which is not good for the game imo.

 

The current evolving dominant paradigm is three plus save monster heroes. Not shooting. Not even Lumineth shooting. We'll see where the edition takes us, but shooting armies need the help of unleash hell against what looks to be the dominent meta and taking it away just further cements one type of army as viable.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

4 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

Gryos do roll to hit, they just get a number of attacks equal to the number of models from the unit in range. They're not actually very good targets for unleash hell most of the time, you can only take 2 in a unit, hit on 4s (i.e. 5s), wound on 3s, so even if the whole unit is in range of the guns on both copters, you're only getting a number of wounds equal to 1/2 the number of models in the unit (at -1 rend, 1 damage). Basically they're only remotely scary to hordes with junky saves, and even then, the gun is only 8" range so pretty much have to be charged themselves to be able to make good use of it. If 40 clan rats charge two copters you'll kill like 20, but how often does that happen? Meanwhile against something like ardboyz you'll kill like 1 for every 5 models. Hardly too scary. 

If they're buffed by a hurricanum and a runepriest to get +1 to hit and rend -2, they become slightly scarier, but still only to 1W models. Against anything else, they're a tickle. 

I had them on my original list of units that potentially benefit a lot from Unleash Hell for two reason:

One, they become much harder to charge now. That was always their problem before, they are just super fragile but want to get in close to enemy hordes to attack. Now, counter-charging them is no longer quite as free.

Two, their to-hit roll is really easy to buff, like for most Cities units, having the potential to ignore the negative modifier from Unleash Hell. Depending on your setup, you an probably get them to +2 to hit, +1 to wound, reroll 1s to hit. It would probably be a bad point investment (especially after they come in units of 2 max now), but the option is there.

Truthfully, though, after thinking it through some more, Gyrocopters probably should not be on that list. Although I still think they are very good as companion units for infantry blocks. Even a single Gyrocopter nearby can still blunt an opposing infantry charge quite significantly by Unleash Hell. And, conversely, a Gyrocopter offers a 16" flying move at 75 points, which makes them a good sacrificial unit to throw into enemy ranged units if you are worried about them unleashing hell on you.

 

[JackStreicher]

Nautilar Idoneth Deepkin Reavers in blocks of 20 are inane if they're charged it's 60 shots hitting on a 5+, rerolling and perhaps +1 to wound from the Eidolin, making them wound on 3s

[Beliman]

16 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Nautilar Idoneth Deepkin Reavers in blocks of 20 are inane if they're charged it's 60 shots hitting on a 5+, rerolling and perhaps +1 to wound from the Eidolin, making them wound on 3s

Reavers with Unleash Hell can't use the Nautilar rerolls (they are not in the combat phase). Maybe I'm missing something?

[JackStreicher]

24 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Reavers with Unleash Hell can't use the Nautilar rerolls (they are not in the combat phase). Maybe I'm missing something?

Nautilar get their rerolls when they're charged, right? Iirc they don't need to be in the combat phase.

[Beliman]

59 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Nautilar get their rerolls when they're charged, right? Iirc they don't need to be in the combat phase.

I think that Consummate Defenders says "in the combat phase".

Edit:

Edited July 16, 2021 by Beliman
Pic

[Honk]

Since, to my knowledge, we haven’t seen big tournaments yet, I guess it‘s all „cry wolf“ up to now.

I can’t wait for some poor gloomspite to charge into my flayer brickwall or marauders or whatever low bravery needs to die with burst eardrums…

I remember a time where my 40 skellis were the immovable object a nobody knew how to deal with it 

„unleash hell“ is just another factor in the cheese equation and as balanced or unbalanced as all of AoS.
My Flesh Eaters always struggled against relevant shooting, kurnoth hunters oneshooting my imba King on gheist, karadron clowncar wrecking my heroes… FEC or LoN I always had troubles protecting my heroes and needed to work around it. We once had a skyfire meta, which I had the doubtful fun to get my cheeks forcefully clapped by.

Which doesn’t mean the gristlegore GkoTg or eel-spam are fun to play against, same goes for Kroak…

every book has certain builds, that hard counter others or are just more competitive than your funny fluff list (LoBlood Moral-Debuff was a nice try) and Sun-Tzu (m/w/d) will leave you outflanked and 30 points behind end of round two no matter what you field.

Lumineth have never seen a big tournament if I recall, Nurgle kindly prevented that.

redeploy and unleash hell are serious options, that need to be closely monitored, but I think there is counterplay, even if it might not be fun (scoring&dying) and that might force you to decide against the heroic epic cinematic last stand and retreat from combat to score objectives.

 

[Orkmann]

8 hours ago, stratigo said:

 

The current evolving dominant paradigm is three plus save monster heroes. Not shooting. Not even Lumineth shooting. We'll see where the edition takes us, but shooting armies need the help of unleash hell against what looks to be the dominent meta and taking it away just further cements one type of army as viable.

Three plus save is crazy good, esp. on monster heroes, but thats because of the save stacking rules, which should be a whole different conversation. What you are not appreciating is that this hurts both combat and shooting output. Ironically enough, these big monster heroes usually have only rend 2, so they will be wiffing a lot too. But the real issue here is that there are a bunch of armies without significant rend or access to good armor saves. They will suffer against tanky armies the same way as conventional shooting and on the top of that, they will get shoot at an extra time.

[JackStreicher]

2 hours ago, Beliman said:

I think that Consummate Defenders says "in the combat phase".

Edit:

Damn, you are absolutely right. ;(

[stratigo]

1 minute ago, Orkmann said:

Three plus save is crazy good, esp. on monster heroes, but thats because of the save stacking rules, which should be a whole different conversation. What you are not appreciating is that this hurts both combat and shooting output. Ironically enough, these big monster heroes usually have only rend 2, so they will be wiffing a lot too. But the real issue here is that there are a bunch of armies without significant rend or access to good armor saves. They will suffer against tanky armies the same way as conventional shooting and on the top of that, they will get shoot at an extra time.

There’s no saving those armies in the current edition. AoS has always had winners and losers, much as I wish you could rescue them. 

[Smooth criminal]

It is a melee-based game with a lot of pure melee armies.

Unleash hell should not exist except for specific units/armies. Pure shooting armies should not exist, no, you are not welcomed. Shackles or anything else should never ban charges but just reduce them by half at most. Pile in from 6" and all other loopholes that ignore charging should dissapear.

Base gameplay should not be warped by those base rules ignoring overpowered mechanics like "strike first" (remember when that one was a gearcheck?), "pile in 6", "unleash hell", etc.

[whispersofblood]

17 minutes ago, Smooth criminal said:

It is a melee-based game with a lot of pure melee armies.

Unleash hell should not exist except for specific units/armies. Pure shooting armies should not exist, no, you are not welcomed. Shackles or anything else should never ban charges but just reduce them by half at most. Pile in from 6" and all other loopholes that ignore charging should dissapear.

Base gameplay should not be warped by those base rules ignoring overpowered mechanics like "strike first" (remember when that one was a gearcheck?), "pile in 6", "unleash hell", etc.

In your opinion*

[PJetski]

18 minutes ago, Smooth criminal said:

It is a melee-based game with a lot of pure melee armies.

Unleash hell should not exist except for specific units/armies. Pure shooting armies should not exist, no, you are not welcomed. Shackles or anything else should never ban charges but just reduce them by half at most. Pile in from 6" and all other loopholes that ignore charging should dissapear.

Base gameplay should not be warped by those base rules ignoring overpowered mechanics like "strike first" (remember when that one was a gearcheck?), "pile in 6", "unleash hell", etc.

I disagree with every point you've made

[stratigo]

26 minutes ago, Smooth criminal said:

It is a melee-based game with a lot of pure melee armies.

Unleash hell should not exist except for specific units/armies. Pure shooting armies should not exist, no, you are not welcomed. Shackles or anything else should never ban charges but just reduce them by half at most. Pile in from 6" and all other loopholes that ignore charging should dissapear.

Base gameplay should not be warped by those base rules ignoring overpowered mechanics like "strike first" (remember when that one was a gearcheck?), "pile in 6", "unleash hell", etc.

GW literally made a shooting army. So, kindly, ****** off telling me I am not allowed to play my army.

[azdimy]

We have a lot of new AOS players in our community coming from 40k and unleash hell has been a big factor for them to try AOS when they never considered it before

[PrimeElectrid]

43 minutes ago, azdimy said:

We have a lot of new AOS players in our community coming from 40k and unleash hell has been a big factor for them to try AOS when they never considered it before

I really struggle to understand that mindset, can you explain what it is about unleash hell that’s so appealing to them that AoS wasn’t worth playing before?

[azdimy]

38 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:

I really struggle to understand that mindset, can you explain what it is about unleash hell that’s so appealing to them that AoS wasn’t worth playing before?

It s probably me stigmatising the 40k crowd but they do like their guns. They ve always hated the double turn but now that you can interact in the opponent turn and specifically unleash hell, they are all in

[Honk]

4 minutes ago, azdimy said:

s probably me stigmatising the 40k crowd

Naah, just the NRA part of AoS… there probably are some Khorne Players wandering the warp or stuff

I Never see a problem with my FEC or LoN (SGBL) cheese. 

finetuned, nicely balanced and easy on the opponent… then I regenerated my squads up to full and continue to crush them *chefs kiss*

it‘s a buff for shooting, and some of them lists are hard to play against, sooo… internet rage 

 

[Virtus-XIV]

Could make unleash hell -2 to hit, so you’d have to work harder to negate the modifier.

[Honk]

17 minutes ago, Virtus-XIV said:

Could make unleash hell -2 to hit, so you’d have to work harder to negate the modifier.

My flayers just do mortals and the real trouble seems to be the LRL Sentinels, fishing for 5+ mortals or some crazy warpflamethrowers… leaving a „normal“ attacking unit in tatters

personal preferences aside, -2 to hit? If they want overwatch, do overwatch… on a roll of 6, maybe specialists on 5+. Or you’re allowed to choose to use your ranged profile during melee. First shooting and then also doing melee? That’s more then the charging unit does

[yukishiro1]

The problem is that a minus to hit doesn't matter for hardly any of the stuff that actually wants to unleash hell. Sentinels don't care. Warpfire stuff doesn't care. I guess irondrakes do, but that's about it from the short list of genuinely scary stuff. As usual with GW development, the drawback to unleash hell mostly only hurts stuff that was already not good at it, while leaving the dominant things dominant. 

Change it to only work if the unit itself is being charged, and/or only if the model is within range, and reduce that range to 6", not 9", and you've got something that has more meaningful movement-based counterplay and I think it's be fine. 

 

[stratigo]

Irondrakes are only scary if they aren't directly charged anyways