Unleash Hell, might be worth a look at?

[Kitsumy]

2 hours ago, Ragest said:

 

And, regarding your story about kruleboyz, how a pair of ballistas that have 4 attacks in total going 5+/3+/-1/2 can do 10-14 mortals? Maximun damage is 8, and that has to be buffing them with the wizard and getting 4 5s/6s.

Being a reinforced unit, so 6 ballistas, of course with the swamp mage.

There is noone hwho thinks this ca is balanced, it would be the same a ca for melees: when a ranged unit try to shoot any unit a 8" this unit u can do a free atack to that unit with a tiny -1 to hit!!

 

Why did they implanted that silly ca for rangeds only?

[azdimy]

I ve seen the Iliatha sentinels double unleash hell  in the same phase and omg this needs and faq! 

[yukishiro1]

One thing that definitely needs to be FAQed is that only models within 9" should be able to unleash hell. It shouldn't be you get to do it with the whole unit of 30 as long as one dude is within 9" of the charging unit. That would do a lot to address a lot of the worst edge cases, whether it's from taking a huge block of 30, Iliatha double unleash hell, or whatever else. 

[stratigo]

On 7/9/2021 at 6:57 PM, Mutton said:

From the several games I've played of 3.0 so far, I think Unleash Hell is a tragic blight on an otherwise awesome ruleset. It essentially makes shooting units twice as effective without any significant cost. Despite having outmaneuvered their opponent and making their charge roll, the attacker subsequently gets punished for no reason other than the defending unit had a CP to spend. You'll get your charging units obliterated because they had no choice but to BE obliterated by a shooting unit nearby. You'll often run into the situation of wanting to charge, but risk getting shot off the board, or not charging and getting shot off the board next turn. It's one of the least fun "interactions" you could possibly incorporate into a game, and there's no reason it should exist--shooting was already powerful.

3rd edition is great; but I despise Unleash Hell with every fiber of my being.

Playing the shooting army, KO, I have been doing dramatically, and I mean dramatically, less damage with shooting then I did before. It's night and day. 

 

Unleash Hell is literally carrying the army since killing all those 3 plus save monsters is quite difficult.

[yukishiro1]

Yeah, save stacking is shaping up to the biggest change in the edition. Rend 1 now feels totally inadequate, and even rend 2 feels low. I find my lists are getting more and more skewed towards high rend and MW because otherwise it just does nothing against the anvils the enemy is bringing, whether it's a monstrous hero, a big block of blood knights, or whatever else.

That theoretically opens space for counter-meta lists that just take hordes of cheap wounds with low saves that gum up the board for 5 turns, but my initial sense is that that doesn't really work in AOS the way it works in 40k because of damage carry-over. In 40k you can take 200 guardsmen and someone who only has anti-tank guns just don't kill them in 5 turns; in AOS, your anti-tank gun kills 5 guardsmen per hit because it's damage 5. I am just not sure that anything except maybe horrors is cheap and compact enough to be able to play the horde game. 

[Beliman]

On 7/10/2021 at 3:36 AM, Kitsumy said:

There is noone hwho thinks this ca is balanced, it would be the same a ca for melees: when a ranged unit try to shoot any unit a 8" this unit u can do a free atack to that unit with a tiny -1 to hit!!

Completely disagree. I still think that redeploy is still the best CA to win games.

[Skreech Verminking]

8 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Completely disagree. I still think that redeploy is still the best CA to win games.

I do think that both ca’s are very useful,

especially from a skaven standpoint.

We’ve got so many toys that do not care about the -1 to hit and literally just do mortal wounds out straight.

warpfire thrower weapon teams, warp-lightning cannons, warpfire projector equipped stormfiends and Thanqoul all love the unleash hell ca, a lot.

the redeploy can give you the chance to basically can make the charge either impossible or harder.

Or you could just use it to get some more bodies onto that one objective,

Or maybe you’ll even be able to take-steal it from a foolish player

Yes-yes

Rats love this new edition

 

[yukishiro1]

Warpfire teams are stupid good now that you can hide them in units and unleash hell with them with no penalty. 75 points for something that does an average of 1W per model in the opposing unit...uh, yes? 

Also a neat trick how they can do that without torching any of their friends. Magic warpfire with homing technology. 

If anybody can make hordes work in 3.0, I think it's skaven with big blocks of clanrats and hidden weapon teams. Probably with several priests so you can get off a curse at a 75% probability if you need to kill something tanky. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Beliman]

@Skreech Verminking

Completely agree. Appart from Warpfire weapons, Sentinels, units with special ranged profiles and maybe a few other units (mw on hit mainly), I don't think Unleash Hell is that strong as some people suggest.

Of course some interactions are better than others, and that's exactly what it needs to be look over. 

[Skreech Verminking]

8 minutes ago, Beliman said:

@Skreech Verminking

Completely agree. Appart from Warpfire weapons, Sentinels, units with special ranged profiles and maybe a few other units (mw on hit mainly), I don't think Unleash Hell is that strong as some people suggest.

Of course some interactions are better than others, and that's exactly what it needs to be look over. 

Yeah, there are some armies, that really appreciate the new ca.

I’ve tried it out with my irondrakes, and if they are the unit that got charged, they won’t be doing much damage at all, maybe 2-3 depending how lucky you are .

[PlasticCraic]

Yes, it should be tightened up.  This rule is wildly skewed to make point and click shooting even pointier and clickier. 

Everything about it is overdone:

- The absurdly generous range (1 model in 9", and an entire unit of Sentinels can bang away)

- The fact that you don't even have to charge the unit in question: charge a screen and get massacred on your own turn.  Yay, interactive!

- The complete absence of figs given about negative 1 to hit by the worst offenders

- The failure to price this ability into the relevant units.  Sentinels, a unit that is already spammed in tournament winning lists, going up by fewer points than Gloomspite Shootas was an...interesting call to make

Unleash Hell also runs counter to the stated design goals for 3rd Edition:

- The stated intention behind using CAs on your opponent's turn was to make games more interactive, but this has the opposite effect.  More shooting makes the game less interactive, because it suppresses combat which is by nature interactive.  In practice a lot of the counterplay for my armies will be "stand around scoring VPs and hope to go second in Round 3", which although fine competitively is hardly encouraging interactivity and a fun gaming experience

- Another stated design goal for 3rd Ed was to lessen the gulf between Haves and Have Nots (hence binning all Warscroll Battalions), which this does not achieve.  Got Mortal Wound shooting and screens?  Boy did you hit the jackpot.  Got cheap flying chaff to charge with?  Lucky you, run some Aetherwings!  (Another unit that is wildly, and predictably, undercosted by the way).

Yes there is counterplay - I've considered the counterplay to Unleash Hell at great length, and it certainly exists (although I'd argue that there should be more).  No, it doesn't single-handedly ruin an otherwise excellent edition the game.  Neither of those are good arguments for Unleash Hell being a good thing in its own right, or keeping it exactly as it is right now.

In conclusion, if this rule is going to stick around (which presumably it is), I'd really love to see it tightened up a little.  I think Aaron's suggestion that you should at least have to charge the unit in question is very fair.  I'd honestly go way further personally, but I think that's a great starting point.

[Beliman]

@PlasticCraic

I disagree about half your arguments but I'm fine with some restrictions to Unleash Hell.
I think it is not as uninteractive as you said. The unit has -1 (don't talk about 5+mw, that's a few units in the entire game) and the charging unit can still save or play around with mystic shield, high saves, mw on charge, Monstruous Rampage, Geminids, baiting  Unleash Hell... and remember, using Unleash Hell means 1 less CP to deal with later!!

Btw, it seems that the main problem for 3.0 is not just "shooting", but 3+ monster/heroes with high dmg output (and mortal wounds). 

 

[PlasticCraic]

21 minutes ago, Beliman said:

@PlasticCraic

(don't talk about 5+mw, that's a few units in the entire game)

The reason we need to talk about it is because it's relevant.  People will naturally gravitate towards using those units, and you will have to play against them.

25 minutes ago, Beliman said:

mystic shield, high saves, mw on charge, Monstruous Rampage, Geminids, baiting  Unleash Hell

As I pointed out already, I understand that there is counter play.  A lot of that is highly situational (e.g. MW on charge won't help you when you are charging a screen) so what I am calling for is more counterplay, specifically that the shooting unit can only Unleash Hell when it's actually the unit being charged.  

[Beliman]

1 minute ago, PlasticCraic said:

The reason we need to talk about it is because it's relevant.  People will naturally gravitate towards using those units, and you will have to play against them.

I agree, and they are the problem!! not Unleash Hell.

2 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

As I pointed out already, I understand that there is counter play.  A lot of that is highly situational (e.g. MW on charge won't help you when you are charging a screen) so what I am calling for is more counterplay, specifically that the shooting unit can only Unleash Hell when it's actually the unit being charged.  

Imho, that's good for the game. Screens are going to be really necessary for armies that are based on Unleash Hell and units that can flank with ambush/teleport or have any type of speed-burst/double-move are going to be golden!!

[Kadeton]

20 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

As I pointed out already, I understand that there is counter play.  A lot of that is highly situational (e.g. MW on charge won't help you when you are charging a screen) so what I am calling for is more counterplay, specifically that the shooting unit can only Unleash Hell when it's actually the unit being charged.  

That doesn't seem like "counterplay" so much as just restricting the opportunity to use Unleash Hell in general. Counterplay implies that the defending player would still be able to use the ability, but the attacking player has done something to mitigate the effect, at least making some kind of basic tactical decision or forcing some kind of trade-off (e.g. you can still Unleash Hell, but not at the target you'd prefer).

The whole dynamic of Unleash Hell works pretty well in practice, at least in the games I've had so far. Mortal-wound-on-hit shooting is the only real problem with it, and it's worth focusing on addressing that (since it's also a problem outside of Unleash Hell) rather than neutering the intended play of normal shooting.

[whispersofblood]

3 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

The reason we need to talk about it is because it's relevant.  People will naturally gravitate towards using those units, and you will have to play against them.

As I pointed out already, I understand that there is counter play.  A lot of that is highly situational (e.g. MW on charge won't help you when you are charging a screen) so what I am calling for is more counterplay, specifically that the shooting unit can only Unleash Hell when it's actually the unit being charged.  

If you had played WHFB you would realise that is a generally useless ability. 

The only change needed is that Wardens don't make Sentinels Battleline and we can all move on with our day. I'm fairly certain units of 30 are an oversight anyway

[PrimeElectrid]

1 hour ago, whispersofblood said:

If you had played WHFB you would realise that is a generally useless ability. 

The only change needed is that Wardens don't make Sentinels Battleline and we can all move on with our day. I'm fairly certain units of 30 are an oversight anyway

I’m struggling to remember a WHFB shooting unit that had anywhere near the same damage as AoS. Most shooting units were small, had at most the equivalent of rend 1, usually one shot each (or came with additional penalties for multishot) and Killing Blow shooting (MWs) was extremely rare (just Waywatchers iirc). They also suffered additional negative penalties for range, cover from other units or terrain, and shooting units were overall more susceptible to penalties to hit.

Stand and shoot also had the restriction that you could only use it against the unit that was charging the shooting unit itself, and not any of their buddies within 9”.

You also could not SnS within the minimum movement range of the charging unit. I can’t remember if that was half or full move value, not that it matters.

Which is a long way of saying the two are not comparable and has little bearing on the value of Unleash Hell. There were far, far more restrictions on SnS and the units using it were much weaker.

Edited July 15, 2021 by PrimeElectrid

[stratigo]

5 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

The reason we need to talk about it is because it's relevant.  People will naturally gravitate towards using those units, and you will have to play against them.

As I pointed out already, I understand that there is counter play.  A lot of that is highly situational (e.g. MW on charge won't help you when you are charging a screen) so what I am calling for is more counterplay, specifically that the shooting unit can only Unleash Hell when it's actually the unit being charged.  

Most of it is just the best way to play now.

[whispersofblood]

1 hour ago, PrimeElectrid said:

I’m struggling to remember a WHFB shooting unit that had anywhere near the same damage as AoS. Most shooting units were small, had at most the equivalent of rend 1, usually one shot each (or came with additional penalties for multishot) and Killing Blow shooting (MWs) was extremely rare (just Waywatchers iirc). They also suffered additional negative penalties for range, cover from other units or terrain, and shooting units were overall more susceptible to penalties to hit.

Stand and shoot also had the restriction that you could only use it against the unit that was charging the shooting unit itself, and not any of their buddies within 9”.

You also could not SnS within the minimum movement range of the charging unit. I can’t remember if that was half or full move value, not that it matters.

Which is a long way of saying the two are not comparable and has little bearing on the value of Unleash Hell. There were far, far more restrictions on SnS and the units using it were much weaker.

The main restriction was -1 to hit and it was a charge reaction meaning a unit needed to declare a charge against the unit so it could react. There were range modifiers but for the majority of shooting units if you were doing a stand and shoot you were within half range anyway as charges were either dbl move (typically 4") or in 8th 2d6+Mv, and a bow was range 24" typically. Also units should make more than one charge reaction if more than one charge was declared against said unit.

Secondly most shooting units in AoS aren't significantly better than WHFB, they *might* be larger though. A handgunner for example might hit and wound better in AoS than WHFB however units themselves are much tougher than they were in WHFB generally speaking. Also the vast vast majority of shooting in AoS is rend -, dmg 1. A few units do MWs on a 6, and even they aren't doing massive damage unless they get to very large unit sizes (really the only time a shooting unit is doing over 4/5 dmg is double reinforced units). We really need to be talking about the corner cases here and each needs its own solution so we don't just make the unit useless for purpose. I think generally Elite shooting units shouldn't be battleline, as the efficiency is a bit extreme.

I've played about 20 games now, and I've not experienced anything resembling the amount of anxiety being portrayed here. My HoS for example love unleash hell, as I can take really cheap and useful chaff units (Godseeker Razorgors 👍), which also produce depravity for me. In my OW Savage Boarboys have been a great utility unit great for dealing with Sentinels and Bloodtalkers.

[PrimeElectrid]

1 hour ago, whispersofblood said:

The main restriction was -1 to hit and it was a charge reaction meaning a unit needed to declare a charge against the unit so it could react. There were range modifiers but for the majority of shooting units if you were doing a stand and shoot you were within half range anyway as charges were either dbl move (typically 4") or in 8th 2d6+Mv, and a bow was range 24" typically. Also units should make more than one charge reaction if more than one charge was declared against said unit.

Secondly most shooting units in AoS aren't significantly better than WHFB, they *might* be larger though. A handgunner for example might hit and wound better in AoS than WHFB however units themselves are much tougher than they were in WHFB generally speaking. Also the vast vast majority of shooting in AoS is rend -, dmg 1. A few units do MWs on a 6, and even they aren't doing massive damage unless they get to very large unit sizes (really the only time a shooting unit is doing over 4/5 dmg is double reinforced units). We really need to be talking about the corner cases here and each needs its own solution so we don't just make the unit useless for purpose. I think generally Elite shooting units shouldn't be battleline, as the efficiency is a bit extreme.

I've played about 20 games now, and I've not experienced anything resembling the amount of anxiety being portrayed here. My HoS for example love unleash hell, as I can take really cheap and useful chaff units (Godseeker Razorgors 👍), which also produce depravity for me. In my OW Savage Boarboys have been a great utility unit great for dealing with Sentinels and Bloodtalkers.

Well, no. Mv4 might have been a common move value for most infantry in some armies, but as many had a higher base (Elves, etc), not counting for the non-infantry chariots, cavalry, cowboys or monsters; and least of all Fliers at Mv10. If your unit was regularly charging things then chances are it was higher than 4, often much higher, probably with 3d6 drop lowest, and possibly flying, too.

Which is a long way of saying that charges frequently started more than 12” away and, indeed, was strategically sound if you were charging a shooting unit with a 24” range that had a big gun. If you were charging some archers with your knights, though, you probably didn’t care. There is no such interaction with Unleash Hell, which is why it was a poor comparison.

Edit: also, shooting units definitely are better if only due to the fact that ranged penalties no longer exist, but also wound rolls aren’t tied to toughness anymore (so wounding on 3s or max 4s is much more common than 4s, 5s and 6s). Finally, there are many units with large number of shots, high rend, high damage, or mortals, none of which existed in WHFB. It’s not just the edge cases that abuse Unleash Hell, they just do so to a greater degree.

I’m really struggling to think of a shooting unit from WHFB that had a better profile than 1 shot 4+ S4 AP1. Maybe something from Dwarves? I know Ogres had a multishot version at 5s, and elves hit on 3s but they were usually capped to s3.

Edited July 15, 2021 by PrimeElectrid

[Acrozatarim]

My experience thus far - with admittedly few games in 3.0 - is that the smaller board size and starting distances mean most ranged units are extremely pressured to get their points-worth out of them before they get mulched in melee, and that without Unleash Hell they'd really struggle. The CP cost has also been pretty relevant, with even the new increased CP generation rate never giving enough to be able to Unleash Hell without feeling like there's a meaningful trade-off going on.

[PJetski]

Unleash Hell seems to be fine so far. The only outlier I have seen are double reinforced Lumineth Sentinels with all their buffs up, but that seems like an easy problem to fix by issuing an errata to their warscroll to make Sunmetal Weapons only trigger in the shooting phase.

Edited July 15, 2021 by PJetski

[readercolin]

Having played some games with 3.0 so far:

Unleash hell hasn't been an issue.  It is fine counterplay to make the attacker think about who's charging what and in what order, but the restriction on 1 unit per turn, costing a CP (which might be better spent elsewhere), and the -1 to hit have all combined to make it not a big deal.

All this being said, I haven't played against Lumineth Sentinals with unleash hell.  And EVERYTHING that people have been complaining about as a "Big Problem" has been Sentinels with unleash hell.

This doesn't mean unleash hell is the problem.  It means Sentinels are the problem, and they need some re-balancing.  Raise their points, make their sunmetal weapons only trigger in the shooting phase, remove their battleline status so you can't have a block of 30 of them, whatever.  If Sentinels are the problem, then Sentinels need to be addressed - not unleash hell.

In the meantime, if someone brings a block of 30-60 sentinels to your table, just politely tell them that you aren't interested in playing them if that is what they are running, and you would rather not play a game than play against that.  They'll either get the message, or they will play someone else and you can play with someone who isn't bringing a list that triggers you so hard.

[Skreech Verminking]

5 hours ago, readercolin said:

Having played some games with 3.0 so far:

Unleash hell hasn't been an issue.  It is fine counterplay to make the attacker think about who's charging what and in what order, but the restriction on 1 unit per turn, costing a CP (which might be better spent elsewhere), and the -1 to hit have all combined to make it not a big deal.

All this being said, I haven't played against Lumineth Sentinals with unleash hell.  And EVERYTHING that people have been complaining about as a "Big Problem" has been Sentinels with unleash hell.

This doesn't mean unleash hell is the problem.  It means Sentinels are the problem, and they need some re-balancing.  Raise their points, make their sunmetal weapons only trigger in the shooting phase, remove their battleline status so you can't have a block of 30 of them, whatever.  If Sentinels are the problem, then Sentinels need to be addressed - not unleash hell.

In the meantime, if someone brings a block of 30-60 sentinels to your table, just politely tell them that you aren't interested in playing them if that is what they are running, and you would rather not play a game than play against that.  They'll either get the message, or they will play someone else and you can play with someone who isn't bringing a list that triggers you so hard.

Say hello to my little friend , 10warpflamers hidden in 120clanrat, all deepstriking via a warpginder team.

hope you have enough shots elve-thing😝

Edited July 15, 2021 by Skreech Verminking

[Orkmann]

Unleash hell wont ruin the game and is perfectly fine in casual games. But the truth is everything is fine in a casual setting, at least if the players make some effort prior to the game to balance your lists.

When it comes to judging, whether a game mechanism is too strong or not, you have to look at competitive play. Sentinels and dakka sneaks are rightly in the focus, but they are not the only offenders.  Armies with access to aura buffs will not care much with -1 to hit. Irondrakes or even stuffs like 30 reavers or a unit of 20 pinks (in some builds) will do plenty of damage upon unleashing hell.

Im playing combat armies so I admit I'm biased, but when I'm looking at the combat vs shooting situation, it is clear to me that shooting came out much better in aos3, so I dont see why this extremely generous overwatch was necessary in the game. Redeploy, only one cp reroll in the charge phase, shackles, and the various half charge abilities/spells can make it very difficult to get things into combat. On the other hand, there is no similar counter against shooting except of Idoneth. I appreciate that the output of some shooting armies have dropped a lot, but that is due to the save stacking rules, and combat units suffer from that as well.

In think unleash hell is too strong, because it gives you a free shooting without risking anything and the price of a CP is just too low. Besides of the actual extra damage, It is also encouraging the use of certain shooty castle/point and click type of lists, which is not good for the game imo.