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Unleash Hell, might be worth a look at?


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After reading a lot online / my own experiences / what I think we will see going forward I think Unleash Hell could do with a tweak down the line to simply change it from that it can only be used on the unit that has been charged. This'll prevent screening a shooting unit, only to shoot with it when the screen is charged.

How have other peoples found Unleash Hell so far? Between that, Redploy (can't do same phase but still huge) and All Out Attack not being able to used in the shooting phase it feels like we've shifted a shooting meta further that way. 

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50 minutes ago, AaronWilson said:

After reading a lot online / my own experiences / what I think we will see going forward I think Unleash Hell could do with a tweak down the line to simply change it from that it can only be used on the unit that has been charged. This'll prevent screening a shooting unit, only to shoot with it when the screen is charged.

How have other peoples found Unleash Hell so far? Between that, Redploy (can't do same phase but still huge) and All Out Attack not being able to used in the shooting phase it feels like we've shifted a shooting meta further that way. 

The thing is all the movement away from the shooting meta is much more subtle.  Many of the new objectives and missions push armies together and mean that a shooting focused army could easily lose the game in the first few turns but just getting too far behind in VP despite decimating the other army. Smaller boards is obviously another push away from shooting meta, as is that unit champions can issue some orders (less of an issue if your heros get sniped off). So far I don't think Unleash hell is problematic, but that said I've not played against 60 Sentinel LRM yet.

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20 hours ago, AaronWilson said:

How have other peoples found Unleash Hell so far? Between that, Redploy (can't do same phase but still huge) and All Out Attack not being able to used in the shooting phase it feels like we've shifted a shooting meta further that way. 

That will turn in to one big nerf for KOs. They already lost some things in this new edition: no wizards, no monsters, no priests, low body count models, no stable source of mw and a lot of +1 saves to counter their rend, etc...

I know that some shooting units can abuse Unleash Hell, but you need to nerf them. Your suggestion nerfs ALL ranged units, even the ones that are just average or bad.

Edited by Beliman
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I think that the problem everyone is worried about is lumineth Wardens screening Sentinel's.So the problem to most people is Sentinels.That worry seems to have been there(right or wrong) ever since the release of the Lumineth book.Other than Irondrakes I haven't seen many other complaints about shooting units and Unleash Hell.

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8 minutes ago, GTK said:

Other than Irondrakes I haven't seen many other complaints about shooting units and Unleash Hell.

People are also worried about all the other shooting units that were already good before. So, bow snakes in DoK, Skinks in Seraphon and Flamers in Tzeentch. There is also a possibility that Stormcast will be quite good at shooting after their new battletome comes out, and Kruleboyz also get units with mortals wounds on hit shooting.

There are also a bunch of units that were not previously super scary because of their short range, but now become quite hard to deal with on the charge. Skaven has a bunch of those, like Warpfire Throwers and Thanquol, I believe. Also the Warp Lightning Cannon. The Gyrocopter in Cities of Sigmar is another example.

I personally find it very hard to predict whether Unleash Hell will make the shooting meta "worse" or not. On the one hand, all good shooting units definitely benefit from this new ability. On the other hand, mid-range shooting units that were previously not that good are probably the most improved by it. I don't think that "fixing the shooting meta" should mean to nerf shooting units until they are no longer good. Instead, we should probably try to make shooting engaging for all players and try to give many armies valid shooting options that are not oppressive. I think Unleash Hell can in theory contribute to that by uplifting mid-range shooting and giving those units the ability to act as support for melee units.

From my own assessment, if I were to predict what armies will do well in AoS 3, it's certainly not just shooting-heavy armies. Lumineth, Tzeentch, Daughters and Seraphon still seem strong, but so do Sons of Behemat, Soulblight, Idoneth and Nurgle. And some armies with strong shooting components seem somewhat weaker (Kharadron Overlords, Ossiarch Bonereapers) or pretty much the same (Cities probably).

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55 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

On the other hand, mid-range shooting units that were previously not that good are probably the most improved by it.

What do you mean with that? A 18" range 4+/4+/-1/1 dmg profil and anything close to that?

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6 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

There are also a bunch of units that were not previously super scary because of their short range, but now become quite hard to deal with on the charge. Skaven has a bunch of those, like Warpfire Throwers and Thanquol, I believe. Also the Warp Lightning Cannon. The Gyrocopter in Cities of Sigmar is another example.

Rofl thanquol with 4 warpfire projectors can’t be charged by non elite units now. since he will on avarage deal 2 mw against every model in the charging unit. Absolutely obliterating 1-2 wound units and severly crippling 3 wound units. Didn’t even think about this before you mentioned him. Luckily I got two thanquols… yes yes.

 

 

Edited by Warfiend
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3 minutes ago, Beliman said:

What do you mean with that? A 18" range 4+/4+/-1/1 dmg profil and anything close to that?

In general, shooting units with reasonable damage output but short range. This is my reasoning:

Before AoS 3, shooting units with short range were frequently not worth it. If you needed to bring your unit within the threat range of fast melee units to shoot, you always had to make sure to protect them from charges, necessitating screening units to support them. And even then, their damage output was usually lower compared to just taking melee units in the first place, in part because melee units generally hit harder than shooting units, and in part because shooting units only get to attack once per turn, as opposed to potentially twice for melee.

However, with Unleash Hell as part of the picture, the relationship between mid-range shooting units and melee units around them is much more mutually beneficial. Shooting units now get to blunt charges that are directed against melee units around them by Unleashing Hell, and so your melee screens are no longer just supporting your ranged units, but also the other way around. To make use of Unleash Hell, you need to be relatively close to the action, since the range on that ability is only 9". This is not a big deal for units with mid-range shooting profiles, but if you want to take advantage of Unleash Hell with units with a high range, there is some negative synergy: You either don't get to take full advantage of the safety that long-range shooting provides, or you don't get to use Unleash Hell in support of your melee units.

For long range shooting units, Unleash Hell is obviously still a benefit, as it makes them much harder to charge and shut down with chaff. But they don't benefit as much as mid-range units, in so far as those units get more value out of Unleash Hell if you use them in the same way you already had to before. That's why I think mid-range shooting is the most improved by this ability. It's not that long range shooting does not benefit, it's just that mid-range shooting benefits more. And to be clear, I don't want to say that mid-range shooting is now better than long-range shooting. Just that those units gain the most from this ability.

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I partly agree with that. But, imho, I still think that the best units for Unleash Hell are the ones that need a combination of:

  • MW on hit
  • High Quality attacks
  • High volum of attacks
  • High dmg profiles
  • Units that can improve their own hit when they shoot (auras, buffs, or passive abilities).
  • < 9" range profiles

90% of the armies don't have a CP abundance/regeneration, so, we are looking from 3 to 4CPs. If you are going to spend CPs on Unleash Hell, you should at least expect to do some dmg in return.

Edited by Beliman
miss some points
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From experience in a fair few games now (Maybe 100+), it seems more powerful on paper than it actually is on the table, its very good, but not game winning by itself.

Notes from my games

 

1 It costs a CP, and amongst all the new things you want to do, this is a real choice.

2 A cheap unit will nullify it (Lists will prob start to include more of these.) Alpha strike armies in 2nd brought in more chaff screens, unleash hell prob has a similar effect on lists.

3 Swarm the charges - chuck 3 hard hitters in, only 1 can get shot, so triple stonehorn, any SoB army, maxwcrusher and double goregruntas etc.

4 Gemenids - perfect counter

5 Ignore the shooty unit/screen.  Multiple objectives and their locations mean you can prob play the game away from the bunker, with the added advantage you may remove that objective anyways turn 3.

 

Give it 6 months and see where we are, but I don't think it will be anything near the game breaker some folks are saying right now.

 

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29 minutes ago, Paul Buckler said:

From experience in a fair few games now (Maybe 100+), it seems more powerful on paper than it actually is on the table, its very good, but not game winning by itself.

Notes from my games

 

1 It costs a CP, and amongst all the new things you want to do, this is a real choice.

2 A cheap unit will nullify it (Lists will prob start to include more of these.) Alpha strike armies in 2nd brought in more chaff screens, unleash hell prob has a similar effect on lists.

3 Swarm the charges - chuck 3 hard hitters in, only 1 can get shot, so triple stonehorn, any SoB army, maxwcrusher and double goregruntas etc.

4 Gemenids - perfect counter

5 Ignore the shooty unit/screen.  Multiple objectives and their locations mean you can prob play the game away from the bunker, with the added advantage you may remove that objective anyways turn 3.

 

Give it 6 months and see where we are, but I don't think it will be anything near the game breaker some folks are saying right now.

 

Out of interest why are geminids the perfect counter?

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4 minutes ago, AaronWilson said:

Out of interest why are geminids the perfect counter?

Because, thanks to the Generals Handbook 2021 Warscroll Update. A unit that took damage from the Geminids can't give or receive orders until the start of the combat phase.

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Its a very mixed bag. Most units are totally fine. The exceptions need to be hit with the points hammer. Preferably sooner rather than later. A good question is how do you even points cost units like Thanquol at this point as he is functionally immune to charges from non-elite infantry squads for 1 CP as written.

 

Some notable outliers have been: Irondrakes, Warpfire throwers/shooting attacks that do not roll to hit ex: any flavor but Thanquol was exceptionally punishing, units that can pump mortal wounds on hit and just fish for the 6's ex: buffed skinks were pretty big offenders, our Lumineth player does not lean on Sentinels thankfully.

 

 

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Irondrakes are a weird one because when they're fully buffed and they stood still and outside 3" they're ridiculously deadly, but they also fall off so dramatically without those buffs. Overwatch hitting on 4s, wounding on 3s, rend 1 from something that charged them directly so they don't get to double shoot isn't all that scary... but overwatch from even just 20 that are double-shooting at -2 rend, hitting on 3s even in overwatch, rerolling 1s to hit, rerolling 1s to wound...there's very little in the game that doesn't obliterate. And that's not even all the buffs you can put on them, it's just the pretty easy ones. 

It makes them very hard to balance - they've always been hard to balance because valuing double shots if you don't move is very hard to do - but it just became even harder with unleash hell thrown in. Even more than Sentinels, they go from zero to hero based on whether they were buffed and whether they have support. If it was limited to only being usable if the unit itself was charged, the problem would obviously go away as you wouldn't get to double shoot any more, so you wouldn't have to consider that in their points cost. 

Edited by yukishiro1
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It feels to me these rules were written for 2019, when the worst thing could happen to you in the game was a Terrorgeist or a Keeper charging into your lines. It might be due to the long product development cycle or the lack of tournaments in the UK, but from the balancing point of view GW ignored how the game has evolved in the past ~18 months.

I think introducing unleash hell was totally unnecessary, but I do not see a realistic chance that it will get nerfed in the near future, so we just have to live with it. In regards to comp play, the new CAs, the smaller board and the new scoring together are buffing certain shooting castle builds a lot, so the game will be pretty much about how can you deal with those sort of lists. It is not impossible at all, but armies which were already struggling in aos2 like Khorne or FEC will fall further behind.

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9 hours ago, Ragest said:

I think is made to stop charging from alpha absolutely free. 

Good point. That must have been a consideration given the smaller new board size and deployment gaps.

Judging by the rules, the AoS devs seem to want to avoid the game slipping into an alpha strike meta. I have thought for a while that the function of the priority roll is to mitigate alpha strikes/first turn advantage. And now you get extra command points for going second, too. So maybe Unleash Hell is another mechanic in the same vein.

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Unleash Hell absolutely should be restricted to the unit that has been charged, give KO and thematic things like Handgunners special rules to make this any unit within 9 to balance.

Whilst at it, get rid of the travesty that is Mortal Wounds on the HIT roll for non-elite units, especially ranged.

Move it to the WOUND roll, make it "in addition" if you have to, and this way the basic game balance checks of minuses to hit can actually apply.

Like seriously, Look out Sir and Unleash Hell both apply a -1 to hit penalty, which is ignored by these unmodified on hit mortal wound triggers.

Edited by Liquidsteel
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6 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

Unleash Hell absolutely should be restricted to the unit that has been charged, give KO and thematic things like Handgunners special rules to make this any unit within 9 to balance.

Whilst at it, get rid of the travesty that is Mortal Wounds on the HIT roll for non-elite units, especially ranged.

Move it to the WOUND roll, make it "in addition" if you have to, and this way the basic game balance checks of minuses to hit can actually apply.

Like seriously, Look out Sir and Unleash Hell both apply a -1 to hit penalty, which is ignored by these unmodified on hit mortal wound triggers.

Mw archers have all of them low damage rates, wich is enough to kill a guy with 5 wounds and 5+ saves, but against infantry it ends being 3-5 models with 1 wound or 1-3 with 2 wounds. That's more about mitigating the damage or make you think twice to charge than a gamechanger.

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Ranged was allready a problem in aos 2, this was totally the oposite we neded.

 

In case they neded to implent this absurd thing, should have been like 40k overwatch. Only the unit charged AND 6s to hit.  Only a -1 to hit when lot of shotting armys have easy acces to +50 to hit is a joke, and being able to use it even if the unit isnt charged??? What the ******, only taus in 40k can do that and if im not wrong is range is litle.

 

I have seen multiples games where new ballista orcs do 10-14mortals when charged, deleting the charging unit 100% to 0 for 1cp...

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I do think it would have been better to limit it to only the unit that has changed, and instead of giving a -1 to hit, which has no impact on MWs on an X to hit or stuff that doesn't roll to it and can be countered by bonuses to hit, they should have instead said that when you make an unleah hell attack, roll one dice for each model in the unit within range, and it only gets to fire on a 4+. If it passes, it can fire according to its normal rules, with no penalty. This mitigates all ranged damage by the same amount (if you think 4+ makes it too weak, you could make it a 3+ instead), rather than rewarding fishing for MW attacks, and also greatly reduces the reliability of single-model units like Thanquol - you might still get to torch whatever charges him, but you might not. 

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2 hours ago, Kitsumy said:

Ranged was allready a problem in aos 2, this was totally the oposite we neded.

 

In case they neded to implent this absurd thing, should have been like 40k overwatch. Only the unit charged AND 6s to hit.  Only a -1 to hit when lot of shotting armys have easy acces to +50 to hit is a joke, and being able to use it even if the unit isnt charged??? What the ******, only taus in 40k can do that and if im not wrong is range is litle.

 

I have seen multiples games where new ballista orcs do 10-14mortals when charged, deleting the charging unit 100% to 0 for 1cp...

Ranged was a problem, so they tried to solve it.

Sentinels-> nerfed by miscast, the unit that makes them battleline went up in 25 points, everything around in their army went up several points aswell.

Stalkers-> nerfed by reinforcements, Morathi went up 60 points, stalkers themselves went up 30 points.

Tzeentch (Flamer's build)-> nerfed by +1 hit stacking, went CRAZY up in points.  

Kharadron-> Vortex nerfed, the shooting meta army that most suffer from -1 hit. They don't have mortals, so their damage has being lowered cause of Mystic Shield/All out defence.

Seraphon-> nerfed by reinforcements (and miscast). They cant stack CAs on stuff anymore, skinks went to a pair of 40-30 man units to just one, sallys went from a pair of 3 models (or 3 and 2) to just 2, Chameleon skinks got destroyed. 

CoS-> nerfed by overwatch and CA stacking.

Stormcast-> nerfed by the lost of battalions.

 

And, regarding your story about kruleboyz, how a pair of ballistas that have 4 attacks in total going 5+/3+/-1/2 can do 10-14 mortals? Maximun damage is 8, and that has to be buffing them with the wizard and getting 4 5s/6s.

Edited by Ragest
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From the several games I've played of 3.0 so far, I think Unleash Hell is a tragic blight on an otherwise awesome ruleset. It essentially makes shooting units twice as effective without any significant cost. Despite having outmaneuvered their opponent and making their charge roll, the attacker subsequently gets punished for no reason other than the defending unit had a CP to spend. You'll get your charging units obliterated because they had no choice but to BE obliterated by a shooting unit nearby. You'll often run into the situation of wanting to charge, but risk getting shot off the board, or not charging and getting shot off the board next turn. It's one of the least fun "interactions" you could possibly incorporate into a game, and there's no reason it should exist--shooting was already powerful.

3rd edition is great; but I despise Unleash Hell with every fiber of my being.

Edited by Mutton
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