AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Neck-Romantic]

I never even assembled my SoulWars stalkers after reading the book, just clipped parts here and there for customizations

Edited July 13, 2021 by Neck-Romantic

[anorek]

21 hours ago, Landohammer said:

-Lauka Vai was fantastic at tanking scary units. Despite dying to Sentinels, she actually did well in some practice games prior to the tourney so I am gonna continue to use her. 

I might have missed something, but can we ally with soulblight?

[Bayul]

15 minutes ago, anorek said:

I might have missed something, but can we ally with soulblight?

Yes.

[dmorley21]

6 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Are other armies having their elite units' squad size reduced?

Been thinking about what happened to Myrmourns and imo MSU reduces their effectiveness in groups of 4 to near uselessness.

Applying buffs to a unit of 4 vs 12 is a waste, and having several units of 4 allows for the enemy to strike back and potentially wipe them out.

On the opposite side of things; it makes things like Olynder's spell or a priest's curse (that we dont have) that affects all attacks made on an enemy unit from any source more useable.

A unit of 12 Myrmourns has always been one of the backbones of my army, and I was in the process of building up a second mass of them; any thoughts on how to utilize them now would be helpful

Yeah, Myrmourns are probably the biggest losers in the book this edition. 
 

There are other similar units that got hit like this in other books. Skywardens and Endrinriggers in KO can no longer go up to 12, meaning no Aethergold, for instance. One of those small things that it will take a new book to fix. 

[Landohammer]

14 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Are other armies having their elite units' squad size reduced?

Been thinking about what happened to Myrmourns and imo MSU reduces their effectiveness in groups of 4 to near uselessness.

Applying buffs to a unit of 4 vs 12 is a waste, and having several units of 4 allows for the enemy to strike back and potentially wipe them out.

On the opposite side of things; it makes things like Olynder's spell or a priest's curse (that we dont have) that affects all attacks made on an enemy unit from any source more useable.

A unit of 12 Myrmourns has always been one of the backbones of my army, and I was in the process of building up a second mass of them; any thoughts on how to utilize them now would be helpful

Yea the changes to Myrmourn unit sizes completely kills them as a viable unit. Other armies were definitely affected by unit size changes as well though. For example, Fyreslayers can now only field berzerkers in units of 10-15, which was their primary means of killing stuff. While Sylvaneth Spite Revenants (their cheap horde units) are in squads of 5, which reduces them to screens at best.

9 hours ago, anorek said:

I might have missed something, but can we ally with soulblight?

Yep. This was probably one of our only true gains with 3rd edition. Soulblight has some fantastic units and it really gives us some tools, specifically the monsters and Radukar the Beast. 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Landohammer

[anorek]

@Bayul God... It was also written on the pts change stream

Thank you!

[Bayul]

 

7 hours ago, Landohammer said:

Yep. This was probably one of our only true gains with 3rd edition. Soulblight has some fantastic units and it really gives us some tools, specifically the monsters and Radukar the Beast. 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Bayul

[EnixLHQ]

9 hours ago, Landohammer said:

Yep. This was probably one of our only true gains with 3rd edition. Soulblight has some fantastic units and it really gives us some tools, specifically the monsters and Radukar the Beast. 

So... How about that allies list? Because I don't really know them.

[dmorley21]

Got my first test game of 3.0 and have to say... it's going to take a lot of reps to get it down well! Ended up only playing three turns because there was so much to learn, and definitely forgot to Redeploy a couple times when it would have made a big difference. 

At first blush, I will say:

• I like the new scoring system a lot. Played first blood, and only having to control two objectives was neat. 
• Rally can be really swingy... and also don't leave a unit underpowered thinking it's no longer a threat. My example:
  • I used rally to try to bring back some Grimghast Reapers, with 11 rolls. Brought back none. Meanwhile, I had left a unit of 5 Dawnriders with one horse left, and on the same turn that I brought back no Reapers the Lumineth player managed to bring back 3 Dawnriders. That was a major swing. 
• Don't forget about redeploy! I did, and it cost me the game (granted, we only played 3 turns, but it would have made a huge difference as two units only just made the charge against a unit I could have redeployed). 
• I really miss Cogs. I think I'll have to give the new version a spin, but really miss the 2" charge. It makes charging from the underworlds so much more difficult. 

Just one test game, and a lot more practice will be needed! 

Okay, wait, one more thing because it was just great and lucky:

Lady Olynder managed to kill a Cathallar, Windmage, and 10 Wardens in a single turn. The heroes were at full strength too. 

[Neck-Romantic]

Thanks for sharing your findings so far!

(Ive only fielded Ony 3 times; every game she was blown off the table before she could accomplish much)

Edited July 14, 2021 by Neck-Romantic

[Landohammer]

14 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

So... How about that allies list? Because I don't really know them.

Here are some of my favorite Soulblight Gravelord Units

 

75pts - Fell Bats - Cheap but insanely fast unit that can potentially reach enemy lines on turn 1 or act as screens/campers/etc. I have considered using these guys as an alternative to the Black Coach to tie up shooty units early.

80pts - Corpse Cart with Balefire Brazier - Cheap -1 Wound aura and -1 to cast aura. Fun conversion model. 

115 - Vargskyr - Extremely fast shock unit with some punch

125 - Blood Born - A solid value unit of elites that hit like a truck and are fast. 

200 - Belladama Volga - An extremely cheap double caster with a +1 to cast. Her spell is really sneaky because it can turn enemy models into dire wolves, which will immediately be in engagement range. This can be brutal on archers or other vulnerable units.

280/285 - Vengorian Lord/ Lauka Vai - A solid all around monster hero that is fast, casts, fighty, and extremely resilient. The vengorian has better command abilities and an easier to cast spell, but Lauka has mortals on the charge and an extra wound. Either is solid. They are an ideal target for mystic shield/finest hour/all out defense and are perfect for monster objectives. 

305 - Terrorgeist - Not much to say here, everyone knows these guys are scary, and another solid choice to grab monster-based objectives. They also give us a shooting phase. 

315 - Radukkar the Beast - An absolute wrecking ball of a character that is also annoyingly hard to kill. Additionally provides a free unit of Dire Wolves (135pt value). 

[dmorley21]

I've gotten some more test games in now, and have some thoughts. First off, I want to stress that these are very much test games and that this new ruleset has a lot going on and will take some practice (though I quite like it overall - but it's not an easy game to pick up). Anyway, some more thoughts:

• Nighthaunt can now do the death thing of bringing back models fairly well. All armies have access to Rally and Emerald Lifeswarm; but when that is combined with Ruler of the Spirit Hosts or Lady Olynder as general, a Black Coach, and the Guardian of Souls; it's not that difficult to replenish a unit anymore. 
• Charging out of the underworlds is just gone as a strategy. Without the +2 from Chronomantic Cogs and/or Death Riders, it's just not a viable strategy. 
• That being said, Chronomantic Cogs still has play. If you take enough casters (3+) and run Cogs, Emerald Lifeswarm, and a mortal wound nuke spell; it's a feasible strategy. And the +1 to charge ability doesn't hurt when fishing for Wave of Terror. 
• Reikenor without an endless spell that you want to cast feels like a waste of points. 
• Overall, I think Nighthaunt are slightly more competitive than they were last edition before Broken Realms: Be'Lakor, but weaker than the list I ran after that book. They don't rely on heroes as much anymore, and benefit from the new way of scoring for about half of the battleplans. 
• Also, the new pile in rules pretty much make the new coherency rules a wash for us. I felt like I was able to get more of my Harridans and Hexwraiths into the battle then before, except when fighting just one large single base behemoth type of model. My Reapers didn't struggle last edition and don't struggle this edition with getting into combat. 
• Final thought: The battleplan you play has a major effect on the game. With the new way of scoring, you're typically only fighting over one objective, with many not that protected and thus it's easy for Nighthaunt to use movement shenanigans to change the structure of the game. I've held units back until turn 3 in every game so far just because of the tactical advantage it was giving me. It allows our army to do more focus fire. 

The core of the list I've been running is:

Emerald Host

Battle Regiment Battlaion:

Lady Olynder (general) 

Krulghast Excruciator

Guardian of Souls or Reikenor or Dreadblade Harrow

20 Grimghast Reapers

20 Grimghast Reapers

10 Chainrasp Horde

10 Hexwraiths

10 Dreadscthe Harridans

1 Black Coach

 

I've then been playing around the edges with a fourth hero, another small unit, and endless spells; and haven't settled on a definitive list. 

[Benlisted]

I have yet to get games in but list wise I was on a similar page to you dmorley - one battle regiment of Emerald Host to try and pick first turn, meaning 3 heroes max and a Coach to maximise slots.  The difference was I had been leaning hard into Hosts as I wanted to ensure I had enough MWs to deal with save buffing. Do you find that the 10-man Hexwraith squad is a bit unwieldy with new coherency and cav bases?

However, I've just updated my Nighthaunt number crunching spreadsheet for 3e and to my surprise, our MW units aren't actually that efficient at dealing damage to high save units, other stuff comes out better.  For instance, into 2+ units this is the damage per point through after saves from a few units (all with a ST buff as I wanted to add it for bladegheists so only fair to for the rest):

• Hosts = 0.027
• Hexes (charging with EH +1 atk) = 0.025
• Reapers (with reroll to hit active) = 0.021
• Bladegheists (charging) = 0.032
• Harridans = 0.030
• Chainghasts (including shooting) = 0.024

I.e. actually our generic -1 rend mobs are just as if not more efficient than our frightful touch units even vs really high saves.  It gets worse for the FT units looking at 3+ saves and up.  (The caveat is, without the ST buff things are much closer, but even still all 4 of hexes/hosts/harridans/bladegheists are still within a 0.003 of one another.) So I think that improves my view of a Reikenor's Condemned list with some bladegheists for instance, and means I wouldn't spam as many hosts in Emerald Host.

If you want to play around with the spreadsheet it's publicly available on this link, just save yourself a copy and go nuts: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nV9b3dJj4mSMok9nLjlPMzKGWhsu2ydfvV-M9sGKj7A/edit?usp=sharing

[Jabbuk]

I have a quick question about battalions. How can you have both Battle Regiment and Commander Entourage?

Can the leader be in both battalions? How does it work because both battalions need to have a general in it could someone enlighten me?

 

Edited July 16, 2021 by Jabbuk

[dmorley21]

3 hours ago, Benlisted said:

I have yet to get games in but list wise I was on a similar page to you dmorley - one battle regiment of Emerald Host to try and pick first turn, meaning 3 heroes max and a Coach to maximise slots.  The difference was I had been leaning hard into Hosts as I wanted to ensure I had enough MWs to deal with save buffing. Do you find that the 10-man Hexwraith squad is a bit unwieldy with new coherency and cav bases?

However, I've just updated my Nighthaunt number crunching spreadsheet for 3e and to my surprise, our MW units aren't actually that efficient at dealing damage to high save units, other stuff comes out better.  For instance, into 2+ units this is the damage per point through after saves from a few units (all with a ST buff as I wanted to add it for bladegheists so only fair to for the rest):

• Hosts = 0.027
• Hexes (charging with EH +1 atk) = 0.025
• Reapers (with reroll to hit active) = 0.021
• Bladegheists (charging) = 0.032
• Harridans = 0.030
• Chainghasts (including shooting) = 0.024

I.e. actually our generic -1 rend mobs are just as if not more efficient than our frightful touch units even vs really high saves.  It gets worse for the FT units looking at 3+ saves and up.  (The caveat is, without the ST buff things are much closer, but even still all 4 of hexes/hosts/harridans/bladegheists are still within a 0.003 of one another.) So I think that improves my view of a Reikenor's Condemned list with some bladegheists for instance, and means I wouldn't spam as many hosts in Emerald Host.

If you want to play around with the spreadsheet it's publicly available on this link, just save yourself a copy and go nuts: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nV9b3dJj4mSMok9nLjlPMzKGWhsu2ydfvV-M9sGKj7A/edit?usp=sharing

This is great information, thanks for sharing! 

As for the cavalry bases... I rarely had success getting every model in a unit of 10 Hexwraiths able to attack in combat in 2.0. I didn't find that any worse except when fighting a single large model (you can't encircle an opponent entirely, which is lame cinematically), and in some instances found it easier to get more models into the fight thanks to the better pile in rules. 

I still think Reapers shine due to their 2" range. A unit of 20 Reapers will always outperform a unit of 20 Bladegheists or Harridans in my experience. In 10s, that's very different. 

I feel you on the mortal wounds, but I think Spirit Hosts have been hurt the worst due to coherency rules. I'd consider taking them in a unit of 9 to be an anvil supported by a Black Coach / Ruler of the Spirit Hosts / Emerald Lifeswarm / Rally; etc. But at this point, I just don't think you can rely on 9 to be an offensive threat. You're just not going to get enough of them into your target IMO. 

1 hour ago, Jabbuk said:

I have a quick question about battalions. How can you have both Battle Regiment and Commander Entourage?

Can the leader be in both battalions? How does it work because both battalions need to have a general in it could someone enlighten me?

So this is something GW could have done a much better job clarifying, but the Leader for battalions does not need to be a general. It can be any hero of your choosing. 

[Jabbuk]

26 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

 

So this is something GW could have done a much better job clarifying, but the Leader for battalions does not need to be a general. It can be any hero of your choosing. 

Wow. I had no idea!! Thanks for clarifying that up.

[Neck-Romantic]

Just a sidenote; you mentioned the +1 to charge from Cogs helps with fishing for WoT ... WoT only occurs on a natural roll of 10+. Buffed rolls dont count for triggering it.

Still nice to have, but it wont help with actually getting the extra attacks.

[Benlisted]

5 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

This is great information, thanks for sharing! 

As for the cavalry bases... I rarely had success getting every model in a unit of 10 Hexwraiths able to attack in combat in 2.0. I didn't find that any worse except when fighting a single large model (you can't encircle an opponent entirely, which is lame cinematically), and in some instances found it easier to get more models into the fight thanks to the better pile in rules. 

I still think Reapers shine due to their 2" range. A unit of 20 Reapers will always outperform a unit of 20 Bladegheists or Harridans in my experience. In 10s, that's very different. 

I feel you on the mortal wounds, but I think Spirit Hosts have been hurt the worst due to coherency rules. I'd consider taking them in a unit of 9 to be an anvil supported by a Black Coach / Ruler of the Spirit Hosts / Emerald Lifeswarm / Rally; etc. But at this point, I just don't think you can rely on 9 to be an offensive threat. You're just not going to get enough of them into your target IMO. 

I guess on hexes it's the sort of thing where you would rather run then in 5s but your list doesn't have room for another unit without breaking the 1-drop.  Though there is a bit more risk of the squad getting wiped then.

Agreed, I don't think I would ever reinforce BGs or harridans these days, 20 1" reach 32mm models sounds really inefficient.

On hosts I was sort of at the point where 6 sounded reasonable as a unit that could take a charge and stick around to hit back - and if one dies you get to stop caring about coherency and get them all into combat.  But yeah, definitely not as a unit that goes out and finds something to kill.

[dmorley21]

6 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Just a sidenote; you mentioned the +1 to charge from Cogs helps with fishing for WoT ... WoT only occurs on a natural roll of 10+. Buffed rolls dont count for triggering it.

Still nice to have, but it wont help with actually getting the extra attacks.

Yeah, I should have been clear. The bonus to charging helps with fishing for Wave of Terror by making it less likely that you will fail a charge if you re-roll it. 

3 hours ago, Benlisted said:

I guess on hexes it's the sort of thing where you would rather run then in 5s but your list doesn't have room for another unit without breaking the 1-drop.  Though there is a bit more risk of the squad getting wiped then. 

Yeah, I tried two units of 5 but they just got wiped out too quickly. 

[Neck-Romantic]

It would just be so painfully easy to make Hosts and Hexes (and mournguls) viable in that role; Procession/New Hero/New spell that makes their Frightful Touch trigger on natural 5+

[Benlisted]

1 hour ago, Neck-Romantic said:

It would just be so painfully easy to make Hosts and Hexes (and mournguls) viable in that role; Procession/New Hero/New spell that makes their Frightful Touch trigger on natural 5+

Honestly I'm still not over every random Kruleboy getting FT when only a handful of our warscrolls have it...

[dmorley21]

1 hour ago, Neck-Romantic said:

It would just be so painfully easy to make Hosts and Hexes (and mournguls) viable in that role; Procession/New Hero/New spell that makes their Frightful Touch trigger on natural 5+

25 minutes ago, Benlisted said:

Honestly I'm still not over every random Kruleboy getting FT when only a handful of our warscrolls have it...

It’s silly to be angry about Kruleboyz when the books were designed at least 4 years apart for a different rule set.

I think it makes more sense to look at recent books to make educated guesses about where a new Nighthaunt book will go. 
 

Army-wide frightful touch? Possible now that we’ve seen Kruleboyz. 
 
A spell or something similar granting mortals on a 5+? Based on LRL, it could happen.

Dropping opponent bravery by 2 if they’re facing two or more units of ghosts? Soulblight does that, so very possible. 
 

I’m curious to see how deepstriking works with the new Stormcast book too, as that might give us clues for future rules. 
 

It’s also worth noting that there was some turnover in the rules writing department this spring, so it’ll be interesting to see if that shakes things up. I’d imagine these books get written about a year before they get released. 

[Benlisted]

5 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

It’s silly to be angry about Kruleboyz when the books were designed at least 4 years apart for a different rule set.

I was largely being facetious, though it is always a little depressing when your army's "thing" gets done better by the new hotness, it erodes its identity a bit.  Though arguably FT hasn't really been our thing since fantasy.

But yeah, I am largely holding out for a new book for NH, which hopefully should be within the next 6 months or so.  I've learnt never to expect anything from GW rules as a Tyranid player, but there's really only improvements from where we currently are so!

[dmorley21]

7 minutes ago, Benlisted said:

I was largely being facetious, though it is always a little depressing when your army's "thing" gets done better by the new hotness, it erodes its identity a bit.  Though arguably FT hasn't really been our thing since fantasy.

But yeah, I am largely holding out for a new book for NH, which hopefully should be within the next 6 months or so.  I've learnt never to expect anything from GW rules as a Tyranid player, but there's really only improvements from where we currently are so!

I'm not sure 6 months is realistic. I think there will only be the three announced books in 2021 (Stormcast, Orruk Warclans, and the Chaos one). They typically don't realease a lot of books during the calendar year after the new edition (just Beasts of Chaos with 2.0). 

There will probably be two in the January/February timeframe, but I could realistically see a lot of books leapfrogging Nighthaunt due to the lack of need for new models. While we're one of the books most in need of new rules, I'd argue that the likes of Nurgle, Beasts of Chaos, Idoneth, and OBR leapfrog us. In terms of age, Nurgle and Idoneth leapfrog us. In terms of models... most armies leapfrog us, which is why I'd expect Nighthaunt's release alongside another faction with a bigger model update. 

Anyway, I'd guess winter if we're lucky. But I'd think sometime in 2022 would be fair. 

[EnixLHQ]

It's also narrative. They've emphasized very heavily since 2.0 that armies currently featured in stories are the ones getting new models, rules, or books. Nighthaunt, via Olynder, was last featured in Be'lakor as being "tricked" by the titular character into helping razing a town. We'll have to wait until either she or some facet of the army rises to prominence again.

The Necroquake being undone, Nagash healing, and the roaming bands of Nighthaunt are all things that have been resolved. Olynder and her agreement to stay her curse on Be'lakor for the time being, Reikenor and his search for secrets and targeting the new Stormcast at Olynder's beckoning, the Kulghast Cruciators and their coalescing power, and the Emerald Host itself are storylines that have not yet resolved that may be ways we gain enough momentum leading up to a book release. They could also start digging into what actually happens when you stop a Necroquake, I suppose, but since that was a main feature of Soul Wars I think that's dead and gone.

If I were to speculate, I'd think we'd start seeing stories about Be'lakor's curse flaring up. Either the Emerald Host reaches him and results in a new battle to take Belly down a peg, perhaps led by Olynder herself, or he comes up with a new plan and new promises that further Olynder's involvement with him and Chaos and gives rise to new troops under her command. I would be lying if I said I would be disappointed with Olynder trading one master for another, but given that she could backstab him or simply enforce the curse at any time gives me hope on that potential storyline. Plus, kind of exciting to think that Nighthaunt might be the first Chaos-aligned Death faction if that kind of story were to pan out.

At any rate, we won't get a new book until we see signs of Nighthaunt being important to a story again. They could use the Nighthaunt book itself to make that importance, but I think we'll see signs of it before that happens thanks to Be'lakor's curse.