AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[stato]

Any chance we could move wishlisting for a new battletome into a different thread?  the AoS2 has become dominated by wishlisting and home made scrolls.

[dmorley21]

1 hour ago, Landohammer said:

The Vorgheist is an amazing model but currently the Mourngal is not legal for matched play. If its not in the GHB then its not legal. The App or Warscroll builder has no bearing on a units legality. 

Considering other FW units were dropped, many are thinking a supplemental FW codex will be released eventually with new points and overhauled warscrolls. Thats what they did with 40k.

No, the Mourngul is legal per the GHB 2021. Page 46 mentions all of the publications that are matched play legal, and says the Compendium: Monstrous Arcanum is matched play legal for models/units that have not been moved into legends. That's the Forgeworld publication of warscrolls. So the Mourngul is legal unless it gets moved to Legends, but will likely be updated with a new Monstrous Arcanum. 

1 hour ago, stato said:

Any chance we could move wishlisting for a new battletome into a different thread?  the AoS2 has become dominated by wishlisting and home made scrolls.

I think/hope that will naturally happen as we discuss our experience with Nighthaunt in AoS 3.0. While we can certainly theorycraft, I really feel like you need reps (probably at least 10 games) before you can start saying what should be changed. I'd imagine Nighthaunt will get a book in 2022, so I'm sure we'll be wish listing after a few months! 

[Bayul]

1 hour ago, stato said:

the AoS2 has become dominated by wishlisting and home made scrolls.

No, is wasn't.

[Landohammer]

56 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

No, the Mourngul is legal per the GHB 2021. Page 46 mentions all of the publications that are matched play legal, and says the Compendium: Monstrous Arcanum is matched play legal for models/units that have not been moved into legends. That's the Forgeworld publication of warscrolls. So the Mourngul is legal unless it gets moved to Legends, but will likely be updated with a new Monstrous Arcanum. 

I think/hope that will naturally happen as we discuss our experience with Nighthaunt in AoS 3.0. While we can certainly theorycraft, I really feel like you need reps (probably at least 10 games) before you can start saying what should be changed. I'd imagine Nighthaunt will get a book in 2022, so I'm sure we'll be wish listing after a few months! 

Ok good catch, but what about points? How can we field a unit that doesn't have points assigned? 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Landohammer

[EnixLHQ]

4 hours ago, Bayul said:

You need to correct the mininum size for Bladegheists in your "Cheap Hero Hunting" trick to 10.

Furthermore you should at least mention allies. Their restrictions are negligible and they can be part of core battalions.

I'll get on that fix later.

What are some good allies and what roles would they play? Last I looked even though we can ally SB, most of their abilities are keyworded for their own faction only, did that change?

[Landohammer]

3 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

I'll get on that fix later.

What are some good allies and what roles would they play? Last I looked even though we can ally SB, most of their abilities are keyworded for their own faction only, did that change?

No, but some of the warscrolls are strong enough to stand on there own. For example the Terrorgeist doesn't really need allegiance abilities to be good. Also the Vengorian lord has a spell that gives all units +1 to wound. He can also use finest hour and mystic shield because he isn't ethereal. So there def is some synergy. 

[EnixLHQ]

I'd love a list. I probably won't be able to dig that deep myself, but I'd love the help for an allies section or anything else.

Just tell me the ally, relative cost (vs a staple unit we have), their strengths and weaknesses, and how they'd work in an otherwise Nighthaunt list. I'll gather them and give credit.

[Bayul]

6 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

No, but some of the warscrolls are strong enough to stand on there own

Right, allies are just acceptable, because NH battle traits are subpar and they don't have a hero MONSTER. That's why I guess Mannfred could be a great option to fill a gap in the roster and you don't have to babysit him while he's doing his thing. Similiar for Lauka Vai for fewer points. Radukar The Beast seems surprisingly fast with Bounding Charge, has good weapons and is resiliant. He can summon Dire Wolves and can buff them when they charge. So he comes with a 135 points discount. I mean even Fell Bats could have a purpose with 14" move for 75 points. 

They are at least mentionable.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 hours ago, Landohammer said:

Hey guys, I know there is some doom and gloom in this faction right now. We were recently rated as one of the worst 3 factions in 3rd edition so thats nice lol 

However I did want to point out one gain: Getting access to full Soulblight Gravelords as allies is pretty huge. Blood Knights, Radukar the Beast, Terrorgeists, and Vengorian Lords are all solid additions to our list. Terrorgeists and Vengorian lords/Lauka  are solid options for capping monster-based objectives. 

I have a tourney this weekend where I am fielding a bunch of Grimghast Reapers, Harridans and a Vengorian Lord. I will let yall know how it goes. 

 

Belladamma Volga seems like another good unit to ally in. She's very self-sufficient and brings some cool stuff to the table. She's a 2 cast, +1 to cast wizard. She has two warscroll spells which are both good. Her Killing Moon gives units double taps on 6 to hit, but only works for GRAVELORDS units, sadly.

But the real value is in her Lycancurse spell, which deals 1d3 mortals to an enemy unit and if any models are slain by the spell, you get to "turn them into" a Direwolf, which you place within 3" of that unit. What that allows you to do is to shut down a big block of ranged infantry by turning one of them into a wolf and locking the whole unit into combat, which is an excellent piece of anti-shooting tech in the age of Unleash Hell. You might want to consider allying in a unit of Direwolves to go along with her, since they can bodyguard for her on a 3+ and are a really solid mobile tarpit unit in their own right. This would also allow you to make use of her command ability, which gives Direwolves a 6" pile in (the good version that allows you to pile in from 6" away, too).

She's pretty cheap at 200 points. 10 Direwolves would add an extra 135. Even though she can only make really good use of one of her warscroll spells, her second cast could always be used for Mystic Shield or an Endless Spell (maybe Spell Portal, so that you can definitely shut down those archers early).

[dmorley21]

4 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

I thought one was an order from a unit champion/hero and one was our Hero's built in command ability...

 

Otherwise whats the point of the KoS's ability at all?

For larger units, the KoSoES +1 attack is better than +1 to hit. The smaller one is an aura ability, which works a little differently. That's in the Core rulebook FAQs. 

1 hour ago, Landohammer said:

Ok good catch, but what about points? How can we field a unit that doesn't have points assigned? 

It's 280 points in that document that the GHB lists as being legal, so that's its current points. 

1 hour ago, EnixLHQ said:

I'll get on that fix later.

What are some good allies and what roles would they play? Last I looked even though we can ally SB, most of their abilities are keyworded for their own faction only, did that change?

Big Drogg Fort-Kicka is another ally/mercernary well worth considering. As a heroic monster with 35 wounds, he's easily our best anvil. He also has a lot of high rend attacks, which is something our army lacks and causes an additional -1 to bravery for units within 3. This works well with a unit of Dreadscythe Harridans. If only the mega-gargants weren't so expensive actual money-wise. 

[Landohammer]

6 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

For larger units, the KoSoES +1 attack is better than +1 to hit. The smaller one is an aura ability, which works a little differently. That's in the Core rulebook FAQs. 

It's 280 points in that document that the GHB lists as being legal, so that's its current points. 

Big Drogg Fort-Kicka is another ally/mercernary well worth considering. As a heroic monster with 35 wounds, he's easily our best anvil. He also has a lot of high rend attacks, which is something our army lacks and causes an additional -1 to bravery for units within 3. This works well with a unit of Dreadscythe Harridans. If only the mega-gargants weren't so expensive actual money-wise. 

Followup question: Are the Son of Behemat mercenary rules still valid? Did those come from a GHB or their actual codex? I was considering bringing one as a mercenary but didn't want to get the model if the legality was in question. 

[dmorley21]

7 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

Followup question: Are the Son of Behemat mercenary rules still valid? Did those come from a GHB or their actual codex? I was considering bringing one as a mercenary but didn't want to get the model if the legality was in question. 

It’s in their actual battletome. 

[Landohammer]

1 hour ago, dmorley21 said:

For larger units, the KoSoES +1 attack is better than +1 to hit. The smaller one is an aura ability, which works a little differently. That's in the Core rulebook FAQs. 

It's 280 points in that document that the GHB lists as being legal, so that's its current points. 

Big Drogg Fort-Kicka is another ally/mercernary well worth considering. As a heroic monster with 35 wounds, he's easily our best anvil. He also has a lot of high rend attacks, which is something our army lacks and causes an additional -1 to bravery for units within 3. This works well with a unit of Dreadscythe Harridans. If only the mega-gargants weren't so expensive actual money-wise. 

I have a tourney this weekend, and here is a paraphrasing of my TO's response after asking him about Mourgul and other FW units.. (he is a good friend so pardon the banter lol)

ME: GHB says monstrous arcanum is legal.

HIM: Where is the points costs for those units? No points, no play. 

ME: In the monstrous arcanum

HIM: Well my codex is listed on the GHB legal list, so why can't I use my old points and horde discounts?

ME: Because the GHB 21 is the most recent publication, and overides those points.

HIM: So you acknowledge the GHB 21 overwrites those books, but does not overwrite arcanum? 

ME: ...

TLDR: The point that my TO is trying to make is that the lack of points in a GHB overrides the presence of points in an old supplement. I personally think that it is definitely ambiguous, but am gonna abstain from using the Mourngul in events for now. I would personally feel really weird using points from a book that old in matched play. 

 

[CaptainSoup]

7 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

I have a tourney this weekend, and here is a paraphrasing of my TO's response after asking him about Mourgul and other FW units.. (he is a good friend so pardon the banter lol)

ME: GHB says monstrous arcanum is legal.

HIM: Where is the points costs for those units? No points, no play. 

ME: In the monstrous arcanum

HIM: Well my codex is listed on the GHB legal list, so why can't I use my old points and horde discounts?

ME: Because the GHB 21 is the most recent publication, and overides those points.

HIM: So you acknowledge the GHB 21 overwrites those books, but does not overwrite arcanum? 

ME: ...

TLDR: The point that my TO is trying to make is that the lack of points in a GHB overrides the presence of points in an old supplement. I personally think that it is definitely ambiguous, but am gonna abstain from using the Mourngul in events for now. I would personally feel really weird using points from a book that old in matched play. 

 

With that logic then Monstrous Arcanum cannot be used at all since none of the warscrolls received a points update in the latest GHB which makes no sense since the GHB states the document is legal. You could also argue that since the latest GHB does not overwrite the document then it is indeed perfectly useable, even if the points are "old." In order words, he played himself lol.

But TO rules overrule everything at the end of the day, even if it makes no sense. 

[EnixLHQ]

4 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

I'll get on that fix later.

Fixed. Now reads: Cheap Hero Hunting: A unit of Bladegheists with either a Spirit Torment or a Chainghasts unit can be a cheap-ish set to drop from Underworlds and snipe an enemy backline.

Though, at either 265 or 305 points, probably not considered cheap anymore.

[CaptainSoup]

Goonhammer releasing their quick blurb regarding our recent FAQ release. Nothing that we didn't already know, but its nice to read another perspective on it since there are so few people that play our army and talk about it.

Article Link

It would have made sense to make the Black Coach a monster, but alas another cold shoulder from our lord Nagash...

[anorek]

Got a question regarding new battalions:
Given that they need a specific unit in them (can't be in two places at the same time), is it possible that with Reikenor's procession we are able to pick both Warlord and Command entourage (or any other that needs a general)?

[Ranzou]

2 hours ago, anorek said:

(or any other that needs a general)?

You misread battalion rules. There are no mention of general here. 

There are only two types of heroes - with ANY count of wounds and with LOWER than 10 wounds.

First are commanders, second are sub-commanders.

So - one hero cannot be commander and sub-commander together, you need to decide which one.

Also one hero cannot be commander for more than one battalion.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Ranzou

[anorek]

15 minutes ago, Ranzou said:

You misread battalion rules. There are no mention of general here. 

There are only two types of heroes - with ANY count of wounds and with LOWER than 10 wounds.

First are commanders, second are sub-commanders.

So - one hero cannot be commander and sub-commander together, you need to decide which one.

Also one hero cannot be sommander to more than one battalion.

@Ranzou Glad that I came to the right place to ask - I was under the impression that Commander=General... 
Yes, I got that that classification and requirements from Icons.



I am trying to make a list for AoS3.0, kinda like Emerald host - it feels that Lady O needs to be there as a General.
What do you think of this?
Allegiance: Nighthaunt
- Procession: Emerald Host
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Lady Olynder, Mortarch of Grief (215) in Warlord
- General
- Lore of the Underworlds: Soul Cage
Krulghast Cruciator (120) in Warlord
Reikenor the Grimhailer (165) in Warlord
- Lore of the Underworlds: Shademist
Spirit Torment (115) in Vanguard
- Artefact: Pendant of the Fell Wind

Battleline
5 x Hexwraiths (150) in Warlord
5 x Hexwraiths (150) in Vanguard
5 x Hexwraiths (150) in Vanguard
20 x Chainrasp Horde (190) in Hunters of the Heartlands
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Chainrasp Horde (95) in Hunters of the Heartlands

Units
20 x Bladegheist Revenants (380) in Vanguard
- Reinforced x 1

Behemoths
Black Coach (220)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Chronomantic Cogs (45)

Core Battalions
Warlord
Vanguard
Hunters of the Heartlands

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 117

What would be a good enhancement pick here? I am leaning toward spells for some reason, would get more options i suppose...
P.S. sorry for the wall of text - any suggestion is always welcome

[Ranzou]

35 minutes ago, anorek said:

What do you think of this?

20 bladegheists is a problem. Coherency problem, base size problem, survivability problem.

I thought that 20 models with 1" reach weren't good on AoS 2.0, but nowadays with new rules it became even worse.

As for me 10men are ideal. 

Why do you take cogs here? +1 to charge is' so good, +1 cast for only two casters is too pricey.

Why dont you reinforce rasps into 30 men?

 

[dmorley21]

@anorek

I run a similar list with Olynder in Emerlad Host. A few things:

First, I’ll second that Bladegheists are better in 10s than 20s.

I always tried running small groups of Hexwraiths so Olynder’s command ability could work on multiple units but in gaming have found that the unit of 5 gets deleted too quickly to be effective bodyguards. A unit of 10 serves me a lot better for that purpose, even with it being inefficient for attacking. 
 

Fianlly, I think you need another hammer unit. 
 

Luckily, just going 10 and 5 Hexes and 10 and 10 Blades should do the trick.

 

[anorek]

59 minutes ago, Ranzou said:

20 bladegheists is a problem. Coherency problem, base size problem, survivability problem.

I thought that 20 models with 1" reach weren't good on AoS 2.0, but nowadays with new rules it became even worse.

As for me 10men are ideal. 

Why do you take cogs here? +1 to charge is' so good, +1 cast for only two casters is too pricey.

Why dont you reinforce rasps into 30 men?

 

Good points! 2x10 BR would be better, more charge chances.
Cogs were taken as a filler, 50pts left.

20 rasps is a bit small size, for more rasps something additionally needs to go

Back to drawing board

[anorek]

56 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

@anorek

I run a similar list with Olynder in Emerlad Host. A few things:

First, I’ll second that Bladegheists are better in 10s than 20s.

I always tried running small groups of Hexwraiths so Olynder’s command ability could work on multiple units but in gaming have found that the unit of 5 gets deleted too quickly to be effective bodyguards. A unit of 10 serves me a lot better for that purpose, even with it being inefficient for attacking. 
 

Fianlly, I think you need another hammer unit. 
 

Luckily, just going 10 and 5 Hexes and 10 and 10 Blades should do the trick.

 

Good point for hexes, I thought 3 of them to spread out LO dmg "evenly" but they will be wiped out by direct attacks.

Edit: as for hammer units: decent, strong, and "cheaper" combo is SH and ST, but they will be slower

Edited July 9, 2021 by anorek

[Aeryenn]

Hi. Is Nighthaunt playable with the new rules or I can keep my ghosts on the shelf until new battletome arrives?

[Bayul]

20 minutes ago, Aeryenn said:

Hi. Is Nighthaunt playable with the new rules or I can keep my ghosts on the shelf until new battletome arrives?

I mean, we all are spitballing lists here and I am not impressed with any of them. Even in my own list I supplement a good chuck of points with a MONSTER hero ally to compensate deficiencies in NH's roster. I don't own Mannfred yet and am very hesitant to invest in this army. Tier lists like those aren't very encouraging either: