AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Warboss Gorbolg]

I’m not sure that NH need to be featured prominently for a new book alone. For new models, yes I would agree however.

 I think that NH is already a healthy model line could work in its favor, as a new book in isolation could come at anytime. I’m hopeful for GSG for the same reason, not models truly needed, just give us a new book.

Biggest issue that I see is that so many factions think that they need a new book, and obviously they won’t all come at once. @dmorley21 didn’t even include the rumored, combined duradin book in the already lengthy list. Most of the forums seem to think that whatever faction they are playing are deserving of an update. Then of course I expect that some new factions will show up over the next few months as well.

[Vasshpit]

So i just picked up 18 nib spirit hosts on the super cheap. 

Whats thoughts on spamming msu and fishing for mortals with these spookers?

[EnixLHQ]

Updated guide with an allies list. Thanks to @Landohammer for their suggestions. Please let me know if there are any changes or additions that should be considered for that section. You will find it right after the Mourngul.

 

[Landohammer]

7 hours ago, Vasshpit said:

So i just picked up 18 nib spirit hosts on the super cheap. 

Whats thoughts on spamming msu and fishing for mortals with these spookers?

Yea. Spirit hosts came out if 3rd being fairly solid. With so many +1 save buffs running around, their relatively reliable mortals are even more valuable and their point increase was negligible. Also Chain rasp and Hex point increases now makes hosts quite appealing as battleline filler. 

 

Dont sleep on running them in larger units either, since they are also a good candidate for Rally. 

[CaptainSoup]

On 7/16/2021 at 4:55 PM, EnixLHQ said:

Updated guide with an allies list. Thanks to @Landohammer for their suggestions. Please let me know if there are any changes or additions that should be considered for that section. You will find it right after the Mourngul.

 

I'm surprised you didn't include Mannfred in your allies list. For 95pts more than Lauka Vai and a behemoth slot, you get a monster hero wizard who moves faster, has more attacks, FT, an extra wound, can teleport out of combat like our dread blades, can shrug off a wound per phase and can cast a MW AoE spell on a 7. From my perspective he is the tough to kill, heavy damaging dealing model that is lacking in the entire night haunt range by taking advantage of a swath of the new rule changes that we simply can't take advantage of well if at all.

Edited July 18, 2021 by CaptainSoup

[Bayul]

3 hours ago, CaptainSoup said:

I'm surprised you didn't include Mannfred in your allies list.

I was surprised, too. But @EnixLHQ asked for help to create a list of the allies and only @Landohammer seemingly wrote a list that fitted the guide and he left Mannfred out. When you paraphrase your argument, he'll probably include it as well. Radukar the Beast woudn't be "the most expansive entry" in this list anymore.

[Landohammer]

5 hours ago, CaptainSoup said:

I'm surprised you didn't include Mannfred in your allies list. For 95pts more than Lauka Vai and a behemoth slot, you get a monster hero wizard who moves faster, has more attacks, FT, an extra wound, can teleport out of combat like our dread blades, can shrug off a wound per phase and can cast a MW AoE spell on a 7. From my perspective he is the tough to kill, heavy damaging dealing model that is lacking in the entire night haunt range by taking advantage of a swath of the new rule changes that we simply can't take advantage of well if at all.

I think Mannfred is cool, but for me personally he is a bit too expensive for me to ever include in my lists. Our troops already skew toward the expensive side, and having nearly 400pts tied up in a single models is just a bit too much.

However he probably does warrant a write up since he is an option for some. 

[Neck-Romantic]

Whattabout Naggie then? 😋

[Bayul]

54 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

but for me personally he is a bit too expensive for me to ever include in my lists.

But that's not relevant for a beginner guide. The guide already lists a lot of Nighthaunt units that are a bit too expensive to ever include in my lists, but they need to be mentioned.

[EnixLHQ]

Manny-fred? Okay, I'll get right on it.

And, yeah, not included only because I am sourcing an allies list from you guys in the community. I think I've played one game with an ally ever and had a poor experience, so I'm sourcing that kind of info from you guys. Plus it helps narrow down the research time it takes. For example, now that he's been mentioned I'm going to look him up, his ability kit, point cost, and then build a battle profile on him. I'll then take that profile and test it in a few scenarios that I'd think we'd commonly meet, and then generalize the results. This is how I come up with the pros and cons for most of the units. It takes a bit of time.

[EnixLHQ]

Both Mortarchs added to the guide. As always, critiques and suggestions welcome.

Edit: Just made some edits, refresh if you were already taking a look.

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by EnixLHQ

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

Both Mortarchs added to the guide. As always, critiques and suggestions welcome.

Edit: Just made some edits, refresh if you were already taking a look.

 

Not sure if I am misreading what you wrote, but Radukar the Beast's summoning CA is once per battle:

Quote

Mustering Howl: Radukar’s howl is instantly recognisable. When released in the midst of battle, the resounding cry is met with an echoing chorus from his lupine kin.

You can use this command ability once per battle at the end of your movement phase. If you do so, you can add 1 unit of 10 Dir e Wolv es to your army. The unit must be set up wholly within 12" of this model and more than 9" from all enemy units.

Also, there was a very subtile buff to Lauka Vai in the FAQ. Previously her CA was "in the hero phase", but it is now "at the start of the hero phase". This means that on your own turn, you can order the triggers of her CA and her Undeniable Impulse die roll to be such that her CA resolves first, which guarantees that she will at least be able to use her own warscroll CA even if Undeniable Impulse makes it so that she can't use any other CA's that turn.

A marginal buff as far as Nighthaunt are concerned (it will likely only affect Lauka Vai herself), but it allows you to definitely get that +1 to hit for her if you want it.

[Garxia]

Sadly, I have not yet been able to play a 3.0 game, but after learning the rules and theorycrafting some lists, I cannot make my mind about:

- REINFORCEMENTS: 

What are you people using your reinforcements on? I'm doubting between:

- 2 on Chainrasps (30 chainrasp unit), 1 on Grimghast (20 Grimghasts unit), 1 on Spirit Hosts (6 Spirit Hosts unit).

- 1 on Chainrasps (20 chainrasp unit), 2 on Grimghast (30 Grimghasts unit), 1 on Spirit Hosts (6 Spirit Hosts unit).

- 2 on Chainrasps (30 chainrasp unit), 2 on Grimghast (30 Grimghasts unit), 0 on Spirit Hosts.

Initially, I discarded using reinforcements on Spirit Hosts (new coherency rule, need big blobs of Chainrasp and Grimghast), but they're our only MW dealer and are somewhat "tanky".

On the other side, I fear that 20 Grimghast are not enough nowadays, and 30 are better for absorbing some losings and Rally.

But I don't feel "safe" without a 30 Chainrasp blob for objetive holding, 20 chainrasps will evaporate easily probably.

Can't decide, so I'm open for opinions and experiences about reinforcements and unit sizes.

 

- GRAND STRATEGY:

Looks like peope are very fond on Predator's Domain here, but I think that Hold the Line may be easier.

Can somebody explain me why chosing Predator's Domain instead? What's your pick?

Edited July 19, 2021 by Garxia

[Neck-Romantic]

The combination of limited reinforcement coupled with new cohesion is just so limiting and aggravating. One or the other would have solved a lot of AoS' problems but in typical GW balancing fasion they over corrected imho.

 

Feels like Hexwraiths are hit the hardest with reinforcements and coherency. 

Im wondering if Myrmourns are simply DoA (pun intended) with both rules bearing down on them. 

Ill likely use bladegheists in groups of default 10 and reinforce hosts to 6

[EnixLHQ]

6 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Not sure if I am misreading what you wrote, but Radukar the Beast's summoning CA is once per battle:

Also, there was a very subtile buff to Lauka Vai in the FAQ. Previously her CA was "in the hero phase", but it is now "at the start of the hero phase". This means that on your own turn, you can order the triggers of her CA and her Undeniable Impulse die roll to be such that her CA resolves first, which guarantees that she will at least be able to use her own warscroll CA even if Undeniable Impulse makes it so that she can't use any other CA's that turn.

A marginal buff as far as Nighthaunt are concerned (it will likely only affect Lauka Vai herself), but it allows you to definitely get that +1 to hit for her if you want it.

Ah, the FAQs... I'll review and update both your points here.

5 hours ago, Garxia said:

Sadly, I have not yet been able to play a 3.0 game, but after learning the rules and theorycrafting some lists, I cannot make my mind about:

- REINFORCEMENTS: 

What are you people using your reinforcements on? I'm doubting between:

- 2 on Chainrasps (30 chainrasp unit), 1 on Grimghast (20 Grimghasts unit), 1 on Spirit Hosts (6 Spirit Hosts unit).

- 1 on Chainrasps (20 chainrasp unit), 2 on Grimghast (30 Grimghasts unit), 1 on Spirit Hosts (6 Spirit Hosts unit).

- 2 on Chainrasps (30 chainrasp unit), 2 on Grimghast (30 Grimghasts unit), 0 on Spirit Hosts.

Initially, I discarded using reinforcements on Spirit Hosts (new coherency rule, need big blobs of Chainrasp and Grimghast), but they're our only MW dealer and are somewhat "tanky".

On the other side, I fear that 20 Grimghast are not enough nowadays, and 30 are better for absorbing some losings and Rally.

But I don't feel "safe" without a 30 Chainrasp blob for objetive holding, 20 chainrasps will evaporate easily probably.

Can't decide, so I'm open for opinions and experiences about reinforcements and unit sizes.

 

- GRAND STRATEGY:

Looks like peope are very fond on Predator's Domain here, but I think that Hold the Line may be easier.

Can somebody explain me why chosing Predator's Domain instead? What's your pick?

I've gotten a few 3.0 games in, and seen a few battle reports.

First thing to be aware of is that your opponent is going through the same thing. They have to reduce troop size, deal with coherency, and make reinforcement choices. So you're not alone even on the table.

That being said, what you reinforce will come down to your goals and what you expect to face. Nothing's "dead" in terms of playability. 9 Spirit Hosts is still perfectly viable, as long as you don't expect to put them all in melee range. They can still camp an objective and take a few hits. Or they can form two lines baked up by a hero. Not all of them will swing, but even if you lose models your round-to-round amount of swings will relatively stay the same as you pile in to fill holes.

Personally, I'm not reinforcing anything, yet. I'm finding it to feel a bit better with more units on the table than having a double-wide or two. Even if my opponent is reinforcing, I usually have two or more units available to pinch them with, which also means more chances at Wave of Terror. And if I had to bet on anything it'll be that getting WoT off is still the biggest priority to hit.

[Landohammer]

On 7/18/2021 at 9:19 AM, Bayul said:

But that's not relevant for a beginner guide. The guide already lists a lot of Nighthaunt units that are a bit too expensive to ever include in my lists, but they need to be mentioned.

Sorry, never played with or against him. I reserved my comments for units I was familiar with. 

8 hours ago, Garxia said:

Sadly, I have not yet been able to play a 3.0 game, but after learning the rules and theorycrafting some lists, I cannot make my mind about:

- REINFORCEMENTS: 

What are you people using your reinforcements on? I'm doubting between:

- 2 on Chainrasps (30 chainrasp unit), 1 on Grimghast (20 Grimghasts unit), 1 on Spirit Hosts (6 Spirit Hosts unit).

- 1 on Chainrasps (20 chainrasp unit), 2 on Grimghast (30 Grimghasts unit), 1 on Spirit Hosts (6 Spirit Hosts unit).

- 2 on Chainrasps (30 chainrasp unit), 2 on Grimghast (30 Grimghasts unit), 0 on Spirit Hosts.

Initially, I discarded using reinforcements on Spirit Hosts (new coherency rule, need big blobs of Chainrasp and Grimghast), but they're our only MW dealer and are somewhat "tanky".

On the other side, I fear that 20 Grimghast are not enough nowadays, and 30 are better for absorbing some losings and Rally.

But I don't feel "safe" without a 30 Chainrasp blob for objetive holding, 20 chainrasps will evaporate easily probably.

Can't decide, so I'm open for opinions and experiences about reinforcements and unit sizes.

 

- GRAND STRATEGY:

Looks like peope are very fond on Predator's Domain here, but I think that Hold the Line may be easier.

Can somebody explain me why chosing Predator's Domain instead? What's your pick?

I only take rasps in squads of 10 now. Save your reinforcements for Grimghast and units you need to squeeze into a battle regiment. I have been using hold the line for my Grand Strategy. Its easy to deepstrike 10 chainraps or 3 spirithost late in the game. Extra points if you take the battle tactic where you need to place two units in enemy territorty.

My 125pt spirit host unit has probably netted me 25+ VPs over the course of 4 games lol. 

7 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

The combination of limited reinforcement coupled with new cohesion is just so limiting and aggravating. One or the other would have solved a lot of AoS' problems but in typical GW balancing fasion they over corrected imho.

 

Feels like Hexwraiths are hit the hardest with reinforcements and coherency. 

Im wondering if Myrmourns are simply DoA (pun intended) with both rules bearing down on them. 

Ill likely use bladegheists in groups of default 10 and reinforce hosts to 6

Hexwraiths having a dedicated sub faction does help, but yea the unit coherency and points hike on them REALLY hurts. So I am finding my reinforcement points best spent on Grimghasts.

Myrmourns are absolutely crippled to the point of uselessness now. 8 attacks hitting on 4+ will never doing anything meaningful.

[EnixLHQ]

10 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Not sure if I am misreading what you wrote, but Radukar the Beast's summoning CA is once per battle:

Also, there was a very subtile buff to Lauka Vai in the FAQ. Previously her CA was "in the hero phase", but it is now "at the start of the hero phase". This means that on your own turn, you can order the triggers of her CA and her Undeniable Impulse die roll to be such that her CA resolves first, which guarantees that she will at least be able to use her own warscroll CA even if Undeniable Impulse makes it so that she can't use any other CA's that turn.

A marginal buff as far as Nighthaunt are concerned (it will likely only affect Lauka Vai herself), but it allows you to definitely get that +1 to hit for her if you want it.

Changed both for accuracy.

Also updated Belladamma per the FAQ: Pack Alpha lasts until your next hero phase. This opens up some additional uses of the 6" pile in.

[cyberhawk94]

What size units for Spirit Hosts and Chainrasps? 

 

Spirit Hosts feel like 6 so they have a better chance of surviving to take advantage of the "revive models" mechanics with their 3 wounds. But they do have coherency issues then, so maybe 3s?

 

Chainrasps Im think either 10s in the underworld to grab objectives, or a big block of 30 in Reikinor's Condemmed. Though it is possible that 2x20 is better with all the ways to heal them. Any use for the larger units not in RC?

Edited July 20, 2021 by cyberhawk94

[Bayul]

11 hours ago, cyberhawk94 said:

Spirit Hosts feel like 6 so they have a better chance of surviving to take advantage of the "revive models" mechanics with their 3 wounds. But they do have coherency issues then, so maybe 3s?

Don't forget that you are allowed to take five.

[EnixLHQ]

What do we think of Blood Knights as allies?

195 points, 5 models, 3 wounds each, 3+ Save, 10" move, 10 Bravery. 6 attacks each, half of which are 3+/3+/-1 with the leader getting another attack. Can pass over non-mounted enemy models with 3 or less and if it does so roll a 2+ and deal D3 mortals. +1 damage to the lances if the unit charges. And, if they kill anything heal up to D3 wounds. Their Standard Bearer ability would have no use as allies, but everything else is super solid.

Compared to our Hexwraiths the Blood Knights cost 45 more points, +1 wound per base, +1 save but no Ethereal, +2" move but no fly. +2 attacks, one for the lancer and one for the horse, but no Frightful Touch on the lancer, +1 to hit for the lancer, +1 to wound for the horse. Doesn't require a subfaction to get +1 attacks on a charge. Passing over models has a wound and mount limit compared to Spectral Hunters, but triggers on a 2+ instead of a 5+ and deals D3 instead of 1 mortal wound. And healing, which Hexwraiths don't get but get a ward save instead if a hero is near by.

Edited July 22, 2021 by EnixLHQ

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

50 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

What do we think of Blood Knights as allies?

195 points, 5 models, 3 wounds each, 3+ Save, 10" move, 10 Bravery. 6 attacks each, half of which are 3+/3+/-1 with the leader getting another attack. Can pass over non-mounted enemy models with 3 or less and if it does so roll a 2+ and deal D3 mortals. +1 damage to the lances if the unit charges. And, if they kill anything heal up to D3 wounds. Their Standard Bearer ability would have no use as allies, but everything else is super solid.

Compared to our Hexwraiths the Blood Knights cost 45 more points, +1 wound per base, +1 save but no Ethereal, +2" move but no fly. +2 attacks, one for the lancer and one for the horse, but no Frightful Touch on the lancer, +1 to hit for the lancer, +1 to wound for the horse. Doesn't require a subfaction to get +1 attacks on a charge. Passing over models has a wound and mount limit compared to Spectral Hunters, but triggers on a 2+ instead of a 5+ and deals D3 instead of 1 mortal wound. And healing, which Hexwraiths don't get but get a ward save instead if a hero is near by.

I think Blood Knights in Nighthaunt can work. Blood Knights are probably the best unit in the book for Gravelords, and even there they don't benefit a lot from any allegiance abilities (with the exception of the Kastelai subfaction). They are definitely worth running just on the strength of their warscroll, even without specific buffs.

The question needs to be: What game plan do Blood Knights help support in Nighthaunt? Because the Blood Knights themself cannot be your game plan, since Gravelords outclasses Nighthaunt in Blood Knight spam builds. If Blood Knights are supposed to help Nighthaunt find a good niche of their own in the new edition, it needs to be something different than "Gravelords, but worse".

[EnixLHQ]

22 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

The question needs to be: What game plan do Blood Knights help support in Nighthaunt? Because the Blood Knights themself cannot be your game plan, since Gravelords outclasses Nighthaunt in Blood Knight spam builds. If Blood Knights are supposed to help Nighthaunt find a good niche of their own in the new edition, it needs to be something different than "Gravelords, but worse".

I think that's true with any ally choice. If you're picking an ally to win the game with then you're not really playing the strengths of Nighthaunt. You're propping up your ally. At which point, play the ally's faction instead.

Doing some research on Blood Knights, they used to be a popular ally choice a while back. They were usually taken as an anti-calvary or anti-ranged unit, intended to take a few hits until another NH unit came to clean up. They fell out of favor pretty quickly, though, right before we got LoG. And never came back. I imagine our Emerald Host helps with that.

If anyone thinks they are worth a mention I'll add them to the guide, but it seems like they may be more of a red herring.

[CaptainSoup]

Goonhammer recently posted an article about a Nighthaunt player's experience at a small casual RTT. Reading through other's experience can glean tidbits of info that we can learn when playing our own games in the future.

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/tournament-report-ham-fam-gardenhammer-with-nighthaunt/

[EnixLHQ]

3 hours ago, CaptainSoup said:

Goonhammer recently posted an article about a Nighthaunt player's experience at a small casual RTT. Reading through other's experience can glean tidbits of info that we can learn when playing our own games in the future.

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/tournament-report-ham-fam-gardenhammer-with-nighthaunt/

Glad to see their experience was a lot like mine, though I didn't bring a Black Coach. Also glad to see us hold up to full 2k games, though the spread of opponents isn't comprehensive it was a nice selection. Overall, pretty good.

I like the lists, too. But it highlights just how badly we need a better monster. Mannfred did all the heavy lifting.

Ellarr's second list is 10 points over.

Edited July 24, 2021 by EnixLHQ

[Neck-Romantic]

The Black Coach functions best late-game. Keep it waay back and bubblewrapped until it powers up; its ludicrous speed will allow it to make it where it needs to be. Let it replenish Hosts/Hexes til mid game, then leap out to pick off support heroes while causing AOE mortals and ressurecting models.

Edited July 24, 2021 by Neck-Romantic