AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Liquidsteel]

On 9/24/2021 at 12:48 AM, EnixLHQ said:

Unfortunately, no.

RAW it does indeed say that Midnight Tome grants the Wizard keyword, Arcane Bolt, Mystic Shield, and one spell from Lore of the Underworlds. In addition, it grants one spell cast in your hero phase and one unbind attempt in your opponent hero phase. If they were already a wizard, this grants one additional spell cast in your hero phase.

Sounds like you get an extra spell. However, the timing of events matters and is the reason this doesn't happen.

In 2.0 it was when the wizard was added to the allegiance that spells were selected, and that came before artefacts were allocated. So this artefact had to grant both the keyword Wizard as well as everything a Wizard gets, all at once. If it didn't, then whoever got it would just be a hero wizard with no spells having missed out on that earlier spell-granting step.

In 3.0, this is spelled out in the 19.0 section, but with a difference. The Wizard keyword grants the ability to cast once and unbind once. It grants Arcane Bolt and Mystic Shield. And, lastly, it grants access to all spells that are listed on their warscroll (if any) and whatever Endless Spells you may have brought. It doesn't grant access to the spell lore of the faction, though. This is why allied wizards don't know the spell lores from their source faction. So how do you get access to the spell lore? 27.3 Enhancements.

That section lays it out. Spell lores are a part of the set of 1-each universal enhancements every allegiance gets. It applies at the same time as the artefact being allocated does. Since it's all at the same time, that hero is not a wizard until it gets the artefact, which it then becomes true after getting the artefact. There's no "allocate artefacts, and then allocate spell lores" step, so it doesn't benefit from being a wizard when spell lores are granted, it's getting the artefact instead.

And, since the last step is to assign any additional enhancements your battalions granted, if this was when you selected the Mystic Tome (because maybe you took Reikenor's and are forced your first artefact) you'd be even further out of luck for any lores since that's a whole step later.

 

Found your previous post, I hope you don't mind me responding.

A few assumptions have been made here that I can't find evidence for in the rules. You say enhancements are all applied at the same time, I can't see this. The step for artefacts in 27.3.3 happens before the step for spell lores in 27.3.4, so if we're going to assume anything I'd argue Artefacts happen before Spell Lores. Otherwise are you free to pick them in any order, and so you get around this by picking your artefacts first? 

Regardless, even if they are applied at the same time, I see no specific rule that say they don't work retroactively/simultaneously.

Going off on a tangent a bit, but the rule for simultaneous effects earlier in the rules states that the player in charge of the unit gets to sequence the order of the rules as they see fit, so if we apply that logic here (not saying it's correct but it's something) then you sequence them as Artefacts before spells.

The reason Allies don't get Spell Lore choices is because they do not gain the benefit of Allegiance Abilities, of which Enhancements are part of. 

Finally, you mention Battalions are picked after initial enhancements, however this is incorrect. 27.3 states that "Enhancements are picked after you have chosen the battalions for your army (see 26.0)". So you already have the extra pick of whatever you choose readily available to you when you get to that step.

[EnixLHQ]

3 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

Found your previous post, I hope you don't mind me responding.

A few assumptions have been made here that I can't find evidence for in the rules. You say enhancements are all applied at the same time, I can't see this. The step for artefacts in 27.3.3 happens before the step for spell lores in 27.3.4, so if we're going to assume anything I'd argue Artefacts happen before Spell Lores. Otherwise are you free to pick them in any order, and so you get around this by picking your artefacts first? 

Regardless, even if they are applied at the same time, I see no specific rule that say they don't work retroactively/simultaneously.

Going off on a tangent a bit, but the rule for simultaneous effects earlier in the rules states that the player in charge of the unit gets to sequence the order of the rules as they see fit, so if we apply that logic here (not saying it's correct but it's something) then you sequence them as Artefacts before spells.

The reason Allies don't get Spell Lore choices is because they do not gain the benefit of Allegiance Abilities, of which Enhancements are part of. 

Finally, you mention Battalions are picked after initial enhancements, however this is incorrect. 27.3 states that "Enhancements are picked after you have chosen the battalions for your army (see 26.0)". So you already have the extra pick of whatever you choose readily available to you when you get to that step.

Lot to unpack here...

I'll start of by saying I'm conceding the point about Arcane Tome, and doing so for a few reasons. One being that I looked into some top tournament lists where it's used and spell lores are being attached. This is true across most major events. So it won't matter if I'm right or wrong, it's been accepted to function the same as an allegiant artefact, and so unless a FAQ changes that my opinion doesn't matter.

Still, it's not the artefact granting the spell lores, it's the allegiance enhancement step. Keywords still matter. If your battletome says you need a wizard keyword and another faction keyword, this only grants the first. Means nothing to us right now, but our future book might break down spells by additional keywords.

When I said all enhancements are applied at the same time, I'm saying that the same section contains all the rules to apply these enhancements, section 27.3. We're not told anywhere in the book if army building follows the same phase rules as a game might, so there's nothing to say that the entirety of section 27.3 applies at once vs 27.3.1 having to apply before 27.3.2. We are told, however, that "Enhancements are picked after you have chosen the battalions for your army (see 26.0)," so that leads to the first interpretation, but we all know how RAW gets muddy and interpreted differently almost on a case by case basis. Either way, the extra Enhancements you get for battalions, like an additional artifact, are included. If what I said sounded like I didn't agree with this, that wasn't the intention. My intention was to highlight that spell lores are granted to the wizard keyword at this step.

The last bit, though, about allies. We agree. Unless I missed something. I mentioned it in my examples because I've seen the argument be made "well, I added the ally to my list, it's in my army now, so it gets everything else my army does," and I wanted to get ahead of that. Keywords matter, but not as much as the line in the rules that just simply says allies get nothing.

I'm not usually one to go back and edit posts after they sat for a while, but between tourneys allowing the lore and my admittedly poor writing in those posts, I'm going to edit them later. I don't want misinformation attributed to them.

Thanks for the assist.

[Caesar1802]

I am not sure whether this comes under copyrighted content under the rules, but I was wondering if anyone had a copy of the build instructions for Reikenor?

[darkdaysdawn]

On 9/30/2021 at 5:05 PM, EnixLHQ said:

Cohesion only matters at the end of the turn, so you can safely ignore it now an use their combat phase to consolidate.

That statement is from EnixLHQ's post about how to run Sotek's deathstar.  I'm not an expert -- only started AoS when 3.0 came out -- however, when I read section 9.0 and 9.1 of the core rules, my understanding is that anytime a unit moves, for any reason, it must end the move in a coherent formation or the move cannot be made.  

In 9.0:  The rules clearly state that a move can occur in the movement phase, charge phase, or combat phase, and possibly even the hero phase with certain abilities.

In 9.1:  The rules clearly state that, "after you have moved all of the models in a unit, it must be coherent".

I've tried running a big NH deathstar twice now and I found it incredibly difficult to land a charge with the second rank, or a hero in the middle of the deathstar, because unless you roll a huge charge, it's very hard to end the charge move in a coherent formation.

If I've misunderstood the core rules, please explain.  Like I said, I'm definitely not an expert -- just trying to understand and improve my NH play.  

Thanks!

[EnixLHQ]

53 minutes ago, darkdaysdawn said:

That statement is from EnixLHQ's post about how to run Sotek's deathstar.  I'm not an expert -- only started AoS when 3.0 came out -- however, when I read section 9.0 and 9.1 of the core rules, my understanding is that anytime a unit moves, for any reason, it must end the move in a coherent formation or the move cannot be made.  

In 9.0:  The rules clearly state that a move can occur in the movement phase, charge phase, or combat phase, and possibly even the hero phase with certain abilities.

In 9.1:  The rules clearly state that, "after you have moved all of the models in a unit, it must be coherent".

I've tried running a big NH deathstar twice now and I found it incredibly difficult to land a charge with the second rank, or a hero in the middle of the deathstar, because unless you roll a huge charge, it's very hard to end the charge move in a coherent formation.

If I've misunderstood the core rules, please explain.  Like I said, I'm definitely not an expert -- just trying to understand and improve my NH play.  

Thanks!

I've since gone back to correct my statement about cohesion. You cannot knowingly make a move that ends out of cohesion, but cohesion itself is only checked at the end of a turn. Slitter or Reikenor's Corpse Candles on an enemy unit, for example, can break cohesion of the unit but it won't result in models being removed from that unit until after battleshock is done. This is why you want to target enemy units that already fought, so that they don't have a combat phase with which to consolidate.

That notwithstanding, the key to the death star charge is to do it at an angle. More than that, it's also to not get in your own way.

You know you have a lot of separate pieces that will be going in for the charge, so the first thing is always going to be trying to get as close as possible before even attempting charges. If you can, get your entire death star to have its Chainrasps right at the 3" line for a charge. This puts the Reapers at a 4 or 5, and a charging hero like Kurdoss at a 5 or 6. This is really important. Your chances of landing a charge roll fall off very sharply. At 3" it's a hefty 97%. At 5" it's over 80%. But by 7" it's roughly 60% and that's the last inch before luck will no longer favor you. From there on out you are below the 50/50. 8" is 40%, 9" 30%. Our almighty Wave of Terror is just over 16%. Don't bank on these.

After that it's about getting out of the way. You will be tempted to charge with those Chainrasps and then wrap them around your target and choke the life out of them. But if you do that you will be moving models into the path of your next charge candidate, which will require extra distance to overcome. This is why it's important to come in at an angle, it's so that your Chainrasp block only tags the enemy with a corner and, if charge distance allows it, wraps around the outside edge leaving a clear path for your Reapers. And then the Reapers do the same thing, wrap around your Chainrasps so that Kurdoss or whomever has their own straight, or mostly straight, charge.

If you can't come in at an angle, then you will have to get very very clever with your Chainrasp coherency to leave a gap somewhere in the path of your Reapers so that one of them can get within a half inch of the target unit. Don't bet on this one, either. If your enemy can spot remove and removes that linchpin 'rasp, then you'll have to consolidate or lose a huge portion of your unit. Not worth it to just get a few Reaper swings in.

Imagine you are holding a sword and shield and getting ready for combat. When you are squared off against your opponent you can either shield-check them or shield-bash them. If you shield-check, you swing your shield to clip them in their shoulder, or knock a weapon out of the way, and then follow through with a jab or slash with your sword. If you shield-bash, though, you are throwing your whole weight into striking with your shield, and it will still be in the way if you try to follow up with a slash. You'd only shield-bash for the same reason you'd commit with only the Chainrasps full on; you either don't need to commit the extra effort to take the enemy down, or you are they aren't your target and the guy next to them is.

[darkdaysdawn]

On 10/26/2021 at 4:53 PM, EnixLHQ said:

I've since gone back to correct my statement about cohesion.

I'm sorry I missed that!  It's a very long thread when you start from the beginning.  😉  Glad to have confirmation that I understood those rules correctly.  

Thanks so much for all the extra info too.  I've replayed some games in my head and considered the range/charge situations you describe.  Makes a lot more sense.  I think I was trying to charge from way to far away.  "Charge at an angle" also makes a lot of sense -- now I see how I to unleash my 2nd rank of troops.

That leaves me with one question though:  How do I make use of Death Comes Swiftly (or should I?) without bursting my aura bubbles?  Is it only really useful for sending in an alpha strike to pin something while you focus the rest of the deathstar elsewhere, or to sprint to an objective, but not necessarily try to land a charge afterwards?

Ok, I guess I have a second question too, lol:  Is the NH deathstar designed to play the objective game, or to table the opponent?  I noticed having most of my army in one blob leaves lot of unprotected territory/objectives that my opponent's fast-movers can get to pretty easily (although I do try to pin/block those units with something from the Underworlds).

Thanks for the tips/advice/clarifications.  Cheers.

[EnixLHQ]

2 hours ago, darkdaysdawn said:

I'm sorry I missed that!  It's a very long thread when you start from the beginning.  😉  Glad to have confirmation that I understood those rules correctly.  

Thanks so much for all the extra info too.  I've replayed some games in my head and considered the range/charge situations you describe.  Makes a lot more sense.  I think I was trying to charge from way to far away.  "Charge at an angle" also makes a lot of sense -- now I see how I to unleash my 2nd rank of troops.

That leaves me with one question though:  How do I make use of Death Comes Swiftly (or should I?) without bursting my aura bubbles?  Is it only really useful for sending in an alpha strike to pin something while you focus the rest of the deathstar elsewhere, or to sprint to an objective, but not necessarily try to land a charge afterwards?

Ok, I guess I have a second question too, lol:  Is the NH deathstar designed to play the objective game, or to table the opponent?  I noticed having most of my army in one blob leaves lot of unprotected territory/objectives that my opponent's fast-movers can get to pretty easily (although I do try to pin/block those units with something from the Underworlds).

Thanks for the tips/advice/clarifications.  Cheers.

The answer to both your questions are more or less the same. The death star is meant to be both an indomitable force on the field, able to go toe-to-toe with other armies thanks to the buff overlap, and also be the giant piece of distraction that's required to soak up damage while time ticks by and points are gathered. It does this by having a lot of model return close by.

But it's also dynamic and modular. Shiftable. Detachable.

Death Comes Swiftly can be used just to make sure the Chainraps move at the same rate as the Reapers, using 2" of the 6" granted so that the entire bubble can move that much faster. It can also be used to make sure the 'rasps aren't the slowest thing when running the entire blob somewhere. But, more often, you will use it as a sort of shock force; if you see an opportunity to rush ahead with the 'rasps to grab an objective or engage in a fight without danger to the main blob being left behind, or at a determent from losing the buffs, then fire this off to engage. Personally, I use it after the game has gone on for a while and my death star has done its work of the enemy army. I'll use it to tar up enemy reinforcements or to split the blob apart.

Meanwhile, the Bladegheists, Chainghasts, and Spirit Hosts should be being used to grab and secure objectives. One of the first things you should do is use the Spirit Hosts to grab an objective that's safe enough to let them sit when coming from the Underworlds. If not, back them up with a charging Bladegheist/Changhast combo. Otherwise, your Blades follow your death star around until the opportunity is right to detach them, usually when you're sure your opponent can't exploit your back side.

The death star has three major weaknesses; ranged spam, mortal wound spam, and MSU spam. But that's pretty much true of any army. If pitted against an army with lots of ranged, engage fast and hard and deal with that as soon as possible. Mortal wound spam? Try to avoid until you can commit all your resources into attacking. MSU spam? On the fly maybe decide not to deploy as a death star and instead as traditional rank-and-file so you can cover more of the board, consolidating later. Unless you can erase every MSU within the round you engage as a death star.

[Benlisted]

Following up the deathstar chat, can I ask about how many rasps/reapers people include in it? The photos a few pages back seem to suggest 30 rasps/10 reapers, but whilst I understand the need to have a blob that can fit in aura range I felt like this wasn't actually that many models to benefit from a ton of points in heroes.  Would it be feasible to say do 2x20 rasps and 30 reapers or is that just way too many models for the aura ranges?

[EnixLHQ]

On 10/30/2021 at 1:06 PM, Benlisted said:

Following up the deathstar chat, can I ask about how many rasps/reapers people include in it? The photos a few pages back seem to suggest 30 rasps/10 reapers, but whilst I understand the need to have a blob that can fit in aura range I felt like this wasn't actually that many models to benefit from a ton of points in heroes.  Would it be feasible to say do 2x20 rasps and 30 reapers or is that just way too many models for the aura ranges?

Can't really answer that. Not a lot of people are playing Nighthaunt to source great data, and those that do play them aren't reporting play style or tactics. The list I'm using is the one that Sotek created, and it has the 30/10 split. The reason for the full squad of Chainrasps is that your ability to bring them back is limited, and you may need a buffer of throwaway models to sustain you through the game. You're limited because your restore abilities will be used on more than just the Chainrasps, Spectral Lure is a sure target for unbinding, and you can only bring back models within an inch of a model that wasn't brought back that phase, so even with amazing luck and rolls you'll hit a hard limit each phase. Sometimes you just need to let a grip of 'rasps die so that your Reapers can stay maxed or a Spirit Host is brought back.

Nothing stops you from trying a different spread. You might find it works better with less Chainrasps and more of something else.

Something I want to point out, while the death star tactic is pretty cool and definitely serves to greatly enhance out throughput as an army, it's also not the only style being used at the tournament level. Sotek is using it, but other NH players are using monster lists or Mannfred lists. In terms of winning lists, all three styles seem to have about the same luck, sitting around 3/2, but the only 4-win list reported so far was a Mourngul/Big Drogg list mentioned a page back. No idea on how the list was played, but it maxed points in every game but the lost one.

With Nighthaunt, your mileage will vary.

[dmorley21]

On 10/30/2021 at 4:06 PM, Benlisted said:

Following up the deathstar chat, can I ask about how many rasps/reapers people include in it? The photos a few pages back seem to suggest 30 rasps/10 reapers, but whilst I understand the need to have a blob that can fit in aura range I felt like this wasn't actually that many models to benefit from a ton of points in heroes.  Would it be feasible to say do 2x20 rasps and 30 reapers or is that just way too many models for the aura ranges?

4 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

Can't really answer that. Not a lot of people are playing Nighthaunt to source great data, and those that do play them aren't reporting play style or tactics.

Nothing stops you from trying a different spread. You might find it works better with less Chainrasps and more of something else.

So I've been running a block of 30 Reapers in my league play, typically supported by a Spirit Torment/Guardian of Souls/Krulghast though sometimes one of them runs off with my 10 Harridans. 

Then, I went to my first 2 day event and decided to run two blocks of 20 Reapers due to a battelplan that had objectives that could only be claimed by battleline units if another battleline unit was contesting it. And I ended up regretting my decision. Due to the fluidity of the game and need to unpack your army at different points, that second unit of Reapers was never in buff range and my units of 20 just didn't hold up or fight as hard as my unit of 30. 

So, the short of it is, really there's only so many models/units you can get into your buff range. This is due to terrain, your opponent's forces, objectives, and battle tactics. 

I personally prefer a big block of Grimghasts to a big block of Chainrasps as a 4+/5+ is a lot different than a 5+/5+. It makes them an absolute anvil that has enough reach to have some fight as well. 

[Benlisted]

Thanks both!  I have been keeping half an eye on the competitive lists and have seen the gargant and Mannfred lists (and to a lesser extent Mourngul ones) doing well, but am keen to play something that doesn't need allies to prop it up (a bit of a tall order I know).  The deathstar seems like the best performing pure NH build at the moment, hence my interest.

dmorley - that was sort of my thinking on 30 reapers too - they don't get as strong buffs (healing from GoS and unconditional rerolls) but the extra save (and rend) does make them more of a brick.  The 30/10 rasp/reaper build just didn't feel quite like a deathstar to me, it's only about 500pts of your army (though technically you could fit two in I suppose!)

Enix - I had similar reticence about only running 20 rasp blocks, they just seem a bit too squishy.  I think I'll need to get out some models and see how many I can actually fit into a 12" aura reasonably...

[dmorley21]

On 11/2/2021 at 5:31 AM, Benlisted said:

dmorley - that was sort of my thinking on 30 reapers too - they don't get as strong buffs (healing from GoS and unconditional rerolls) but the extra save (and rend) does make them more of a brick.  The 30/10 rasp/reaper build just didn't feel quite like a deathstar to me, it's only about 500pts of your army (though technically you could fit two in I suppose!)

The buffs are still pretty strong. If you all out attack them, they're hitting units with under 5 models on 3's while re-rolling 1's and then wounding on 2's. I do run them in Emerald Host as well, and almost always put the -1 save on some monster hero that they end up running into which in effect gives them -2 rend. 

Also, Bill Souza who is pretty much one of the best players in the world, is taking this list to a tournament in the U.S. call Da Boyz:

 

[darkdaysdawn]

On 11/5/2021 at 4:12 AM, dmorley21 said:

...Bill Souza who is pretty much one of the best players in the world, is taking this list to a tournament in the U.S. call Da Boyz:

 

I'm not sure if that's a joke or a real list, but it would definitely be interesting.

What about the limit of 400 points for allies?

Also, what's this about Mercenary units?  I feel like I missed a rule or something.  Is there a way to include mercenaries that's different than including allies?

Thanks.

[dmorley21]

37 minutes ago, darkdaysdawn said:

I'm not sure if that's a joke or a real list, but it would definitely be interesting.

What about the limit of 400 points for allies?

Also, what's this about Mercenary units?  I feel like I missed a rule or something.  Is there a way to include mercenaries that's different than including allies?

Thanks.

It's a real list. The player, Bill Souza, takes very off-meta lists that seem underpowered to tournaments and proceeds to win the tournament regularly. In 3.0, he's done this with Flesh-Eater Courts and Hedonites of Slaanesh. 

As for your other questions, there are 3 named characters in Sons of Behemat that are mercenaries and are allowed to be allied into certain grand alliances. All Death factions are allowed to take Big-Drogg as their one and only ally. It's a similar mechanic to how Gotrek works. 

[darkdaysdawn]

7 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

As for your other questions, there are 3 named characters in Sons of Behemat that are mercenaries and are allowed to be allied into certain grand alliances. All Death factions are allowed to take Big-Drogg as their one and only ally. It's a similar mechanic to how Gotrek works. 

Gotcha. So I guess I need to read the SOB book? 🙂

Thanks for explaining. 

Also, I think AoS The App has yet another bug then - it considers my list invalid if I add Big Drogg (says I can't have allies AND mercenaries, but I only have the one SOB; the rest is all Nighthaunt proper). 

[lare2]

12 hours ago, darkdaysdawn said:

AoS The App

The app is very busted in regards to many things. It still being a beta, just report it and hopefully they'll address it. 

[darkdaysdawn]

44 minutes ago, lare2 said:

The app is very busted in regards to many things. It still being a beta, just report it and hopefully they'll address it. 

Indeed, but they are accepting bug reports. They've even followed up and asked me for screen shots, so they are working on it. 

https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/3DSRJ8N

They definitely still have a long way to go though. 

Edited November 8, 2021 by darkdaysdawn

[EnixLHQ]

1 hour ago, darkdaysdawn said:

Indeed, but they are accepting bug reports. They've even followed up and asked me for screen shots, so they are working on it. 

https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/3DSRJ8N

They definitely still have a long way to go though. 

At least they are interacting with you. I got totally ignored.

But then again, a multi-paragraph, bullet-pointed checklist of broken bits and design suggestions maybe wasn't what they were looking for.

[Andrethegreat]

I have been thinking about getting into a Nighthaunt army, and I just wanted to know what would be a hammer unit and what units makes a good anvil units?   

[Ranzou]

8 hours ago, Andrethegreat said:

I have been thinking about getting into a Nighthaunt army, and I just wanted to know what would be a hammer unit and what units makes a good anvil units?   

Greetings.

Good anvil - 30 grimghast reapers +  Cruciator. 4++ 5+++ big blob of etherial flesh which can bite back is the best our anvil.

As for hammers - we do not have any. We have daggers, a lot of daggers, but no hammers.

You can use 10 bladegheists + chainghasts, 10 Dreadscythe Harridans with two crones, 2x5 hexwraiths (only in Emerald Host).

Of course - you can use Big-Drogg as hammer, he is the only usable damage dealer for nighthaunts.

[dmorley21]

14 hours ago, Andrethegreat said:

I have been thinking about getting into a Nighthaunt army, and I just wanted to know what would be a hammer unit and what units makes a good anvil units?   

5 hours ago, Ranzou said:

Greetings.

Good anvil - 30 grimghast reapers +  Cruciator. 4++ 5+++ big blob of etherial flesh which can bite back is the best our anvil.

As for hammers - we do not have any. We have daggers, a lot of daggers, but no hammers.

You can use 10 bladegheists + chainghasts, 10 Dreadscythe Harridans with two crones, 2x5 hexwraiths (only in Emerald Host).

Of course - you can use Big-Drogg as hammer, he is the only usable damage dealer for nighthaunts.

Pretty much all of this. 

I run a blob of 30 Reapers with the Cruciator, Spirit Torment, and Guardian of Souls, and it has been an impossible unit for my opponents to chew through (well except for one silly charge of Thanquol... better off not talking about that). 

Units turn into hammers with Wave of Terror and you might be kind and call Kurdoss a mini-hammer, but really Big-Drogg is so common as an ally because he's the only true hammer Nighthaunt have access to at the moment. 

[darkdaysdawn]

On 11/8/2021 at 10:54 AM, EnixLHQ said:

 

But then again, a multi-paragraph, bullet-pointed checklist of broken bits and design suggestions maybe wasn't what they were looking for.

Hahah...yeah, I tried that too.  I even offered to rewrite the app for them.  Didn't go over well.    

I had better luck reporting one bug at a time via the survey link.  But yes...tedious given the number of glaringly obvious bugs they should have found themselves.

[darkdaysdawn]

Help with Spectral Summons:  When I first read this ability, it seemed like a tool the general could use to summon minions to their side.  Made sense.  But then in practice, you have to have a hero near the minions to issue the command, which has the unfortunate side effect of leaving an unprotected hero behind.  Also, thematically, it's not as if the general is summoning anything at all -- it's more like a sub-commander is saying to the minions, "Hey, the boss wants to see you.  Report to him immediately." which feels...um...less thematic and cool.  Anyway...

What are reasonable uses of this ability?  I'm aware of the Dreadblade Harrows teleport shinanigans, but that still leaves a hero behind, unless the Dreadblade is the hero giving the command and can thus teleport himself immediately after issuing the command.  I've also read some people making a Dreadblade their general, but I don't see how that improves things?  I guess you could teleport the Dreadblade to a target location, then have another hero tell the unit of minions to teleport to the general?  Other than rescuing a poorly considered deep strike from the underworlds, I struggle to find uses for our special Nighthaunt command ability. 

Tips please and thanks!  Cheers.

[lare2]

11 hours ago, darkdaysdawn said:

Help with Spectral Summons:  When I first read this ability, it seemed like a tool the general could use to summon minions to their side.  Made sense.  But then in practice, you have to have a hero near the minions to issue the command, which has the unfortunate side effect of leaving an unprotected hero behind.  Also, thematically, it's not as if the general is summoning anything at all -- it's more like a sub-commander is saying to the minions, "Hey, the boss wants to see you.  Report to him immediately." which feels...um...less thematic and cool.  Anyway...

What are reasonable uses of this ability?  I'm aware of the Dreadblade Harrows teleport shinanigans, but that still leaves a hero behind, unless the Dreadblade is the hero giving the command and can thus teleport himself immediately after issuing the command.  I've also read some people making a Dreadblade their general, but I don't see how that improves things?  I guess you could teleport the Dreadblade to a target location, then have another hero tell the unit of minions to teleport to the general?  Other than rescuing a poorly considered deep strike from the underworlds, I struggle to find uses for our special Nighthaunt command ability. 

Tips please and thanks!  Cheers.

Not too sure what you mean with having a hero left behind? To issue the command you just need to say I'm gonna teleport those guys over there to my general. You don't need a hero next to the unit being teleported. The best use I've found is, of course on a Dreadblade, who can teleport and then bring a unit along with him via Spectral Summons. This is a nifty way of stealing objectives or securing Battle Tactics (e.g. Savage Spearhead). I also use it if a unit's getting pounded and I need them out quick to heal them up. For example, if you've got RotSH on the Dreadblade, pull some Spirit Hosts to him and heal away freely before sending them back in for a scrap. 

[EnixLHQ]

15 hours ago, darkdaysdawn said:

Help with Spectral Summons:  When I first read this ability, it seemed like a tool the general could use to summon minions to their side.  Made sense.  But then in practice, you have to have a hero near the minions to issue the command, which has the unfortunate side effect of leaving an unprotected hero behind.  Also, thematically, it's not as if the general is summoning anything at all -- it's more like a sub-commander is saying to the minions, "Hey, the boss wants to see you.  Report to him immediately." which feels...um...less thematic and cool.  Anyway...

What are reasonable uses of this ability?  I'm aware of the Dreadblade Harrows teleport shinanigans, but that still leaves a hero behind, unless the Dreadblade is the hero giving the command and can thus teleport himself immediately after issuing the command.  I've also read some people making a Dreadblade their general, but I don't see how that improves things?  I guess you could teleport the Dreadblade to a target location, then have another hero tell the unit of minions to teleport to the general?  Other than rescuing a poorly considered deep strike from the underworlds, I struggle to find uses for our special Nighthaunt command ability. 

Tips please and thanks!  Cheers.

The Core Rule FAQs point out that older command abilities like Spectral Summons can ignore the rules for distance and command source thanks to how Spectral Summons is worded.

Since the ability says that you must set up units near the general, the FAQ points out the you can assume the general is the one issuing the command. This allows all units to be selectable options for Spectral Summons, not just heroes, elite units, or units with a commander. Then, it states that if a distance is mentioned in a command ability (for purposes of being issued or received), you can use the original distance and not the new limited ones. Spectral Summons targets a unit anywhere on the board, and so that still stands as its distance.

The only thing that changes is that you cannot select a unit that already received a command earlier that movement phase, nor that the teleported unit can receive another CA after the move.