AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion

[DocKeule]

13 hours ago, AHexInScarletRed said:

I'm a Soulblight player lurking here and occasionally wishing to expand into the Depths, haha. On the new Hero: I'd love Mor'phann with Lotann, Soulrenders and the Thrallmaster to become viable and on top I wish for another big monster with the new Battletome, preferably a Kraken. I think that'd be the point having me finally invest into the army. LRL's take on water will be interesting in the future too. 

I would be surprised if we got a third big centerpiece model (fourth if you count both Eidolons). 

I would not be surprised on the other hand if the Thrallmaster would be the only new unit we get in this edition since that's what most faction updates looked like for quite a while now. 


BTW: It strikes me as interesting that the Thrallmaster's buffs as well as those from the new Fyreslayer hero only last during the combat phase. This might be the new thing just as the first IDK book was the first with the "wholly within" rules. Little strange though to start that with the fourth book of the edition.

[AHexInScarletRed]

1 minute ago, DocKeule said:

I would be surprised if we got a third big centerpiece model (fourth if you count both Eidolons). 

I would not be surprised on the other hand if the Thrallmaster would be the only new unit we get in this edition since that's what most faction updates looked like for quite a while now. 


BTW: It strikes me as interesting that the Thrallmaster's buffs as well as those from the new Fyreslayer hero only last during the combat phase. This might be the new thing just as the first IDK book was the first with the "wholly within" rules. Little strange though to start that with the fourth book of the edition.

Yeah, the Kraken is dreaming around. It's why I want to field Lotann, haha - still, a big Kraken'd be amazing. 

It's not as if IDK are in desperate need of a specific unit type atm, imo - so yeah, not impossible that it will only be the Thrallmaster and updated rules. 

Combat phase for switching up during my and my opponent's combat phase, no? 

[DocKeule]

Yes, looks like you could pick a stance at the beginning of every combat phase. With the bits we know so far it might even be possible to run more than one Thrallmaster and apply more than one stance on the same unit(s) at the same time. We will have to wait and see how good Namarti are going to be with the new book to see if that could be worth the points though.

[DocKeule]

Thrilling news fellow friends on the sushi elves. If there aren't fake....
 

Spoiler

Thralls got their 2" reach
Iron bearer has been upgraded to a champion
And +1 damage now triggers at a wound characteristic of three or more


 

Spoiler

Allopexes get a new coherency rule of 3"
The harpoon now does D3 damage (wonder if Leviadons will be changed to the same stats)
The wording "if this unit has two or more models" suggests that units of more than two sharks are possible (battleline?)
When they have two or more models they get a champion a well



All in all that looks great. Also both units have not lost any warscroll abilities.
 

[DocKeule]

The sharks go up to 10 wound is a mixed bag. Now they can't get the +1 to saves from the turtle (unless that is also changed in the new book).

[Clan's Cynic]

• Namarti Reavers don't have Fire options anymore, 3+ Hit and Wound are just built in.
• +1 to hit when in within 9" of what you're shooting at but lost the Run re-roll. 
   
• Allopexes have 3" coherency instead of 1".
   
• Thrallmaster - 110pts
• Allopexes - 165pts (+40)
• Thralls - 130pts (+10)
• Reavers - 170pts (+55)

I don't play Idoneth so someone'll have to spot any other changes there.

Edited January 15, 2022 by Clan's Cynic

[DocKeule]

That's huge for Reavers. Rend and 3+ 3+ 😮

[Baz]

new points 

Thrallmaster 110

Thralls 130

sharks 165

Reavers 170

[DocKeule]

Oi, that's hefty. So armies are going to get smaller again.

[AHexInScarletRed]

Sharks now have D3 Damage on the Harpoon instead of 1. I'm not versed enough in Deepkin to take a stance on the new Reavers- and Allopex-Points. The Thrallmaster and the Thralls seem well off, though. 

Edited January 15, 2022 by AHexInScarletRed

[DocKeule]

Thralls have been greatly improved. We will see if that brings them back into the competitive realms (I could imagine the lack of mobility might still be an issue) but for fluffy lists they will finally see some daylight.

Reavers looked good first but not für 170 points. If you look at what Lumineth Sentinels do for the same amount of points the Reavers don't even get close.

The increase on Allopexes is still hefty. They got up by almost a third while the two extra wounds and losing the void drum effect is a wash a best. 

I am a little afraid of the point changes in the new book after seeing this.

[Rhetoric]

Scrolls are looking fantastic.  Points seem a little steep, but let’s see the new book and synergies. 

[GrimDork]

I'm liking the reavers new stat line, 2 attacks without the different fire modes just seems easier and will probably balance out through the course of a game. Especially with how the fire mode selection was model based rather than unit based.

It might be  a subtle nerf to reaver spam armies especially when unleashing hell, but I think it's a good call.

 

[AHexInScarletRed]

3 hours ago, DocKeule said:

Thralls have been greatly improved. We will see if that brings them back into the competitive realms (I could imagine the lack of mobility might still be an issue) but for fluffy lists they will finally see some daylight.

Reavers looked good first but not für 170 points. If you look at what Lumineth Sentinels do for the same amount of points the Reavers don't even get close.

The increase on Allopexes is still hefty. They got up by almost a third while the two extra wounds and losing the void drum effect is a wash a best. 

I am a little afraid of the point changes in the new book after seeing this.

Maybe Thralls get a transport option pulled by a Kraken, haha. The combat profile is insanely good offensively regarding them being basic Battleline. Them now being 2" range makes them really dangerous if they manage to get in place (and they are so easy to buff!). Are there deepstrike options for them apart from the Soulscryer? 

Reavers outdamage Sentinels (both unbuffed) and they still do when Sentinels get their Spell off (at least against 4+ and weaker Saves). They're less versatile, though. 

[Orbei]

The shark and reaver changes are tough at first glance. Both units work pretty good currently and these are huge increases to points. Reavers are a completely different unit from the role they currently fill. Compared to blood stalkers they pretty bad... 10 points cheaper, less range, no MWs on 6s, no hero phase shooting. Sharks look particularly bad; given the points the natural comparison seems to be SDG. They are only 5 points less than SDG which are hilariously better when looking at the warscrolls. Thralls look like big winners here. I'll keep an open mind and hope there's some good synergies in the book.

[madmac]

I never stress points too too much. Points can come down, and probably will if it's clearly out of line. Good Warscrolls are something you'll be waiting years for a second chance on.

[DocKeule]

3 hours ago, GrimDork said:

I'm liking the reavers new stat line, 2 attacks without the different fire modes just seems easier and will probably balance out through the course of a game. Especially with how the fire mode selection was model based rather than unit based.

It might be  a subtle nerf to reaver spam armies especially when unleashing hell, but I think it's a good call.

 

The Reaver spam was pretty much dead with the december FAQ when only models within 6" of the unit that charged could shoot.

Not sure if they put them back into oblivion now though with 170 points. The only use I coult think of is deepstriking them with a Soulscryer and an Ishlaen unit to shield them. Other than that I would guess it will take them too long to get in range of anything significant to justify these points.

 

2 hours ago, AHexInScarletRed said:

Maybe Thralls get a transport option pulled by a Kraken, haha. The combat profile is insanely good offensively regarding them being basic Battleline. Them now being 2" range makes them really dangerous if they manage to get in place (and they are so easy to buff!).

Agreed. They should hit pretty hard. On the other hand to get the optimum out of them you have to keep them pretty close to their supporting heroes. With Lotann, the Thrallmaster, an Eidolon of the Storm and a Leviadon we are talking 2+ to hit (re-rollable) with exploding sixes 2+ to wound -1 rend and that on as many units as you can get in a 12" bubble. That's nothing too sneeze on.
 

2 hours ago, AHexInScarletRed said:

Are there deepstrike options for them apart from the Soulscryer? 

Soulscream Bruidge but other than that no.

[Kitsumy]

yes scrools were buffed. but in most of cases maybe the cost was raised even more.

 

shark only got like 25% more wounds but lost cover and dmg only was raised by around the same. so around 20% better but got like 35% so in general it got worse. it should cost 145-150. not 165.

and if u use the net it got even worst, lost turtle aura, won 2w and got 40p higher on top of the nerf!

 

thralls are worse than vampires graveguard per example. since they have higher dmg 2/3 of the times and only sligthy less on 4+w,so 130p is right to make them roughly the same. and we dont see graveguard winning tourneys so thralls shouldnt be too strong.

 

archerboys got really nice. but not for a 50% increase in points for sure. at short range they are roughly the same since new ones cant get the +1 hit, so only won 1rend for a 50% increase?? hell no, and lost half atacks in melee.  in long range they are really far better now, but they got a step increase with 0 increase in durability so they are squishier now.

all and all i like them more now, even if mathwise maybe they are nerfed, but are easier to play from long range and are far better defending objetives while doing dmg.

 

i think those units wont be winning every tourney, and maybe even they wont see tables i dont know. but for casual games at least i like them more now, at least baldys, shark one only got worse. but scrools are better for sure and points change everytime. so im happy

Edited January 16, 2022 by Kitsumy

[DocKeule]

It's kind of hard to judge three warscrolls without any idea what direction the new book is taking. What I have seen from the Nurgle book and new Nurgle battle reports makes me somewhat optimistic.

But there seems to be a tendency to raise point costs lately. The last GHB did it. So did the Winter FAQ and the Nurgle battletome. If you look at 2000 points Nurgle armies now especially with more than one Great Unclean One or Glotkin there is not that much else on the table.

Per personal conspiracy theory is that GW wants to establish 3000 as a more common game size. Could be that they are only trying to lower the bar for newer players but a lot of long time players must be like me looking at all the stuff they habe bought, build and painted and be like: "I would kind of like to use it"

[woolf]

at the increased cost for sharks, an allied SCE dragon unit looks like a better version of it, depending on what happens with allegiance and other synergies ofc..

[vinnyt]

Oooooooh baby we are looking good with the new rules!! All these takes are ~as is~ since we don't know how the tides, enclaves, etc, etc are gonna turn out. These will likely be wrong when the whole book drops but are my initial thoughts on the changes.

 

Thralls got objectively buffed. That's it, that's the whole take. They're actually reasonable now and if we can still resurrect them in some way, might actually see the thrall lists getting some play!

New character- does some stuff sure ok, but a FLAT -1 TO WOUND THRALLS IN COMBAT is insane. Absolutely insane buff. being able to effect wounds is probably the best buff/debuff in the game. If he can't be shot because of forgotten nightmares, a unit of 30 thralls with this guy is 500 points of absolute castle that will buzzsaw if given the opportunity. I expect the turtle to be relatively unchanged which means that those thralls will be at -1 to wound and a 4+ ignoring 1 rend on turn one. Extremely interesting character and I'll be messing around with him for sure.

Reavers- another sneaky buff. They will rip through things with only the slightest nudge of buff. Observe:

Flat damage at 18", no buff- 3/4.5/6/7.5 wounds against 2+/3+/4+/5+ save. You kill a 4+ save wizard with one round of shooting.

+1 to hit (AoA. 9" range, etc)- 3.7/5.5/7.4/9.3 wounds At this point you're threatening stormcast characters, killing a fulm, or just devastating 4+ save "elite-ish" units. And if you can trick your opponent into burning CP against their shooting for AoD, that's incredible value for you.

+1 to hit, +1 to wound (AoA, range, eidolon buff- 4.6/7/9/11.6 wounds Now you're starting to cut through monstrous characters on 4+ saves. 2 units being able to reliably one shot stuff like Arkhan in an army that actually PREFERS CC is just amazing. 

+1 to hit, rerolling ones, +1 to wound (Fuethan basically does this across the entire army pre-new book) 5.4/8/11/13.5 wounds. Buzzsaw. Just a buzzsaw. The other thing about these bonuses is that they can't really be stopped. They're all incidental and require no resource allocation AT THIS POINT IN TIME. They just happen. The Eidolon is buffing other stuff too and these little guys are just sitting on objectives and murdering everything.

This brings me to the spiciest one yet.

SHARKS- I love em. We all know I love em. They're my little output torpedos and they got objectively better (AS OF NOW, FOR MY STYLE OF PLAY). Sure 165 is fairly steep, but let's look at the buffs. +2 wounds is just excellent. I wasn't using them to be baby-sat by a turtle and now that they get a champion and can command themselves, I can just AoD them if I need to. The extra attack range being increased means it's easier to shoot soft stuff and then get the +1 attack against tough stuff. Coherency being 3" is also nice for zoning out deepstrike, and aesthetics. The champion buff is just crazy and you're gonna have to trust me that the damage output is higher than i previously calculated which means that the sharks damage per point ratio I talk about on page 5 of this thread has been adjusted, but is still higher than everything else except 6 charging morrsarr (USING CURRENT RULES). And then we get to the real juicy upgrade. The HARPOON GUN. It's just wild how good that is now. 4 sharks no buffs will do 4.7/7/9.5/12 damage against a target before charging. Your opponent is gonna have to pop CP to keep any characters alive and then you STILL GET TO CHARGE WITH THE BEST OUTPUT PER POINT IN THE BOOK*. And ooooh boy, if you start buff stacking... those same 4 sharks, AT RANGE, do 8.6/13/17.3/21.6. Oh, and the way the scroll is worded heavily implies that you will be able to take at least one shark unit as battleline. 

So basically, I'm looking at a rough outline of:

Storm Eidolon- 330ish

-some caster/support hero- for likely 120ish

3x2 sharks* - 990 (probably 4-5 harpoons and 1-2 nets)

Sharks do more damage than reavers at range, and if they can be battleline, I'm obligated to try it out. That list clocks in at 1440 points and I'll be filling the rest of the points with either eels and/or a turtle so it can fit into a 1 drop. At that point I'll be able to comfortabley shoot down scary units/supporting characters before 60 wounds of nondegrading sharks hit the front line. I think Howl's moving castle is also reasonable with storm eidolon, the 30 thrall/new character/turtle package, then some reavers/sharks.

Basically, right out the gate it looks like deepkin is getting more army building options, and if not straight upgrades, at least multiple sidegrades. 

 

BUT IT WILL ALL DEPEND ON THE TIDES/ENCLAVES

 

[GrimDork]

8 minutes ago, vinnyt said:

Oooooooh baby we are looking good with the new rules!! All these takes are ~as is~ since we don't know how the tides, enclaves, etc, etc are gonna turn out. These will likely be wrong when the whole book drops but are my initial thoughts on the changes.

 

Thralls got objectively buffed. That's it, that's the whole take. They're actually reasonable now and if we can still resurrect them in some way, might actually see the thrall lists getting some play!

New character- does some stuff sure ok, but a FLAT -1 TO WOUND THRALLS IN COMBAT is insane. Absolutely insane buff. being able to effect wounds is probably the best buff/debuff in the game. If he can't be shot because of forgotten nightmares, a unit of 30 thralls with this guy is 500 points of absolute castle that will buzzsaw if given the opportunity. I expect the turtle to be relatively unchanged which means that those thralls will be at -1 to wound and a 4+ ignoring 1 rend on turn one. Extremely interesting character and I'll be messing around with him for sure.

Reavers- another sneaky buff. They will rip through things with only the slightest nudge of buff. Observe:

Flat damage at 18", no buff- 3/4.5/6/7.5 wounds against 2+/3+/4+/5+ save. You kill a 4+ save wizard with one round of shooting.

+1 to hit (AoA. 9" range, etc)- 3.7/5.5/7.4/9.3 wounds At this point you're threatening stormcast characters, killing a fulm, or just devastating 4+ save "elite-ish" units. And if you can trick your opponent into burning CP against their shooting for AoD, that's incredible value for you.

+1 to hit, +1 to wound (AoA, range, eidolon buff- 4.6/7/9/11.6 wounds Now you're starting to cut through monstrous characters on 4+ saves. 2 units being able to reliably one shot stuff like Arkhan in an army that actually PREFERS CC is just amazing. 

+1 to hit, rerolling ones, +1 to wound (Fuethan basically does this across the entire army pre-new book) 5.4/8/11/13.5 wounds. Buzzsaw. Just a buzzsaw. The other thing about these bonuses is that they can't really be stopped. They're all incidental and require no resource allocation AT THIS POINT IN TIME. They just happen. The Eidolon is buffing other stuff too and these little guys are just sitting on objectives and murdering everything.

This brings me to the spiciest one yet.

SHARKS- I love em. We all know I love em. They're my little output torpedos and they got objectively better (AS OF NOW, FOR MY STYLE OF PLAY). Sure 165 is fairly steep, but let's look at the buffs. +2 wounds is just excellent. I wasn't using them to be baby-sat by a turtle and now that they get a champion and can command themselves, I can just AoD them if I need to. The extra attack range being increased means it's easier to shoot soft stuff and then get the +1 attack against tough stuff. Coherency being 3" is also nice for zoning out deepstrike, and aesthetics. The champion buff is just crazy and you're gonna have to trust me that the damage output is higher than i previously calculated which means that the sharks damage per point ratio I talk about on page 5 of this thread has been adjusted, but is still higher than everything else except 6 charging morrsarr (USING CURRENT RULES). And then we get to the real juicy upgrade. The HARPOON GUN. It's just wild how good that is now. 4 sharks no buffs will do 4.7/7/9.5/12 damage against a target before charging. Your opponent is gonna have to pop CP to keep any characters alive and then you STILL GET TO CHARGE WITH THE BEST OUTPUT PER POINT IN THE BOOK*. And ooooh boy, if you start buff stacking... those same 4 sharks, AT RANGE, do 8.6/13/17.3/21.6. Oh, and the way the scroll is worded heavily implies that you will be able to take at least one shark unit as battleline. 

So basically, I'm looking at a rough outline of:

Storm Eidolon- 330ish

-some caster/support hero- for likely 120ish

3x2 sharks* - 990 (probably 4-5 harpoons and 1-2 nets)

Sharks do more damage than reavers at range, and if they can be battleline, I'm obligated to try it out. That list clocks in at 1440 points and I'll be filling the rest of the points with either eels and/or a turtle so it can fit into a 1 drop. At that point I'll be able to comfortabley shoot down scary units/supporting characters before 60 wounds of nondegrading sharks hit the front line. I think Howl's moving castle is also reasonable with storm eidolon, the 30 thrall/new character/turtle package, then some reavers/sharks.

Basically, right out the gate it looks like deepkin is getting more army building options, and if not straight upgrades, at least multiple sidegrades. 

 

BUT IT WILL ALL DEPEND ON THE TIDES/ENCLAVES

 

I love your enthusiasm! Thanks for the sharing your thoughts.

[Kitsumy]

hmmm love that u love ur sharks, but cant say they are better now, when maths never lie and they clearly shows how sharks are much worse now ( net) or a bit worse ( harpon).

it is like saying a unit got buffed doing 1more dmg, but got 1k points increase, but it got better!

maths says it won 25% wounds, and lost turtle buff, and got 33% increase in points. so it got HUGE nerf in durability, even without turtle it got 8% worse for no reason.

damagewise is even worse. it got 0 increase on net, and around 25% with harpoon, again the gains were inferior than the nerf in points.

 

so overall sharks got around 8% or 16% worse now, not counting the lost of turtle save, if not it is even worst. and not counting the captain buff since never will run them as unit with his pitiful 6ld, losing 165 or more points even on unlucky rolls isnt fun to me

[Orbei]

2 hours ago, vinnyt said:

Sharks do more damage than reavers at range, and if they can be battleline, I'm obligated to try it out.

I don't understand this. A single shark and unit of reavers are virtually the same points. A shark gets 4 shots that do an average of 2 damage each if they hit and wound. The reavers get 20 shots that do 1 damage each. They both have the same to hit/wound/rend so none of those are a factor. Reavers do more than twice as much damage as sharks at range. What am I missing here?

I also don't understand why you're saying they have the best melee output in the book. They look to be squarely behind thralls and morrsarr. A 165 point shark assuming 4 bites does 3.26 damage against a 3+ save. This is really poor output. 10 thralls for 130 points do 6.67 damage assuming 1 wound targets or 8.89 damage against 3+ wound targets. Double the output for less points. Of course thralls are less survivable, slower, and have no ranged attack but in combat they are superior. Morrsarr also have higher output.. 2 morrsarr for 132 points will do 3.85 damage on the charge not counting their mortal wounds. I used a 3+ save to help out the sharks and make the most of their rend, and they still come out poorly.

To make matters worse, sharks have almost no synergy now. No turtle buff, and you can alternatively buff namarti in multiple ways including the new thrallmaster.

Sharks were really nice as a hybrid of ranged and melee output and efficient for their points. Now they are middling at everything. We're now paying a huge premium for increased ranged damage at big nerf to survivability per point and melee damage.

Instead of your first 2 sharks why would you ever not just take 2 SDG? What am I missing?

[Orbei]

If the points stay as is I'd lean towards trying MSU namarti with all the buff pieces. Something like:

Eidlon of the storm

Lotann

Thrallmaster

Soulscryer

Tidecaster (General)

Turtle

2x10 Reavers (deploy with soulscryer)

4x10 Thralls