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AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion


HollowHills

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Hello! Just wanted to say hi and thank you for all the tips and suggestions in this thread. I've been buying up Idoneth over the past couple of months having always liked their aesthetic, but am excited to play them having read up on their synergy and tactics here 😄

Seems an exciting time to get into them with today's announcements too. 

I had bought a shipwreck, turtle, 3x3 eels, Eidolon, 2 sharks plus and handful of the lesser heroes and was going to paint them up before seeing what else i needed - looks like a decent time to buy the new box set as i love the Namarti models too and wanted to end up with some.

So yeah, I would class myself as a good painter and modeller but a rubbish and cursed dice roller of a player! Initially i wanted to get into Idoneth as an art project, but am sure the info here will help me enjoy some decent games too, so thank you all 😄

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1 hour ago, Nerdkingdan said:


In your shark based lists, what are you using for Grand Strategy.   I'm still doing eel spam, and its easy to choose with them all being battleline.

Thanks in advance.

I usually take hold more terrain features. It's really easy to do with my mobility and nobody has ever really tried to stop me doing it. 

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45 minutes ago, vinnyt said:

I usually take hold more terrain features. It's really easy to do with my mobility and nobody has ever really tried to stop me doing it. 

Thanks, I'm not doing events yet, and I appreciate your write ups to keep as up to date as possible.   I'm currently trying to develop the best casual list I can.   Solid but not too good, very hard to pull off with deepkin.
 

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1 hour ago, Nerdkingdan said:

Thanks, I'm not doing events yet, and I appreciate your write ups to keep as up to date as possible.   I'm currently trying to develop the best casual list I can.   Solid but not too good, very hard to pull off with deepkin.
 

No problem! I like makin em and there are a bunch more on the fb page I've linked in a few. 

 

As for strong but not hyper tournament deepkin, there are a lot of ways to go, IMO. Double storm eidolon, any list with 20 thralls, any list that isn't Fuethan, Ionrach, or Dhom-Hain, the options are nearly endless! 

 

 

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The description of the thrallmaster says

Quote

The Thrallmaster shifts stances to effortlessly counter whichever opponent he faces, instructing his Namarti followers to follow suit.

Sounds like he will have a choice of stances in combat phase, much like the thralls sweeping blows ability. From this description, I wonder if thralls will lose their warscroll ability and instead get a similar buff from a CA from the thrallmaster? Or maybe get a buffed version of their warscroll ability?

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I could see this being similar to what Sylvaneth do when they put their roots down. Trading mobility for a better save-roll or something similar. 

I hope they won't weaken the warscroll and make the buffs dependent on a five-wound hero that probably won't be around for too long. But after the changes made in the new Nurgle tome (which mostly sound pretty fitting and fluffy) I could also see them rewriting most profiles and units playing very differently with the new book.

But that is all speculation. We will have to wait for some more bits of information.

Edit: I like the prospect of putting the Namarti more in focus even if that would be the third forced (or lets say encouraged) meta-change with the IDK within a year. But I always found it kind of sad that we could not build fluffy lists (that would be Namarti-heavy) that were competitive.

Edited by DocKeule
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Without spending a command point we have units that could buff namarti with +3 to bravery, +1 to hit, +1 to wound, +1 to Save, +1 to bravery and reroll 1s, +3 to charge and another +1 to bravery.

Another buff to namarti…..  won’t make us use them.   The problem has always been the warscroll.

I'm very pessimistic about the new book, considering the solution looks like another buff unit.

I doubt our tides, forgotten nightmares, midnight cloak, Ishlean, and other similar mechanics stay in their current form.    My concern is the book will be a complete redo, which could work out, or be like the sylvaneth one was in AOS2.

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The main issue with both Namarti units is their fragility. If GW fixes that they could become an option.

I expect them to re-do a lot like they did with Nurgle. And there is potential to go both ways. (Also seems to depend heavily on the writing team).

Sure the Sylvaneth-example is looming every time a new book is released but that (and maybe the second Slaanesh-tome) is the only example where they made a faction considerably worse with a new book.

And lets face it: Without a new book ITK will be passed through tier after tier with all the -3 rends and 2+ saves and wards and mortal wounds that the other factions get and are going to get in their new rules. And since IDK have played pretty much the same for four years now I don't mind a little shake-up.

As for specific rules:
Tides - I would expect them to stay somewhat similar. And I wouldn't mind a little less fixation on the third round
Forgotten Nightmares - More of a coin toss but could be seen as one of the characterizing features
Cloak - Don't see why not. Other factions have similar or even better artefacts 
Ishlaen - Might be changed to taking no modifications to their save like "etherial" units. On the other hand IDK have no ward (so far)
 

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People are already running Namarti and they are pretty good, Reavers at least, Thralls need 2" range to really shine but even now arent terrible for a battleline choice. There are quite a few well placing lists running 30-50 Namarti and while they arent full Namarti armies do we really want that?

I dont think either one should be more defensive, its not their role and they would get just be pointed too high if they all gained a 4+ save or ward. If they added a more defensive Thrall unit then that may work. The only real change that needs to happen at the moment is to fix Thralls weapon range since the new coherency rules really hurt them.

Edited by Drofnum
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1 hour ago, Drofnum said:

and while they arent full Namarti armies do we really want that?

It would be fluffier than the all-elite builds we see now most of the time. 

I don't really buy the Reavers hype and I guess with the updated "unleash hell" rule we will se a lot less of those lists (pending the new book). Main problem with mixing Namarti and Akhelians is that most heroes only support one or the other. Especially the Isharanns do little to nothing for cavalry. Same with the King the other way around. Leviadon and Eidolons are obviously fine.

 

1 hour ago, Drofnum said:

Thralls need 2" range to really shine

This would also be my no. 1 change in the IDK roster as it is today.

Other than that I think we need more rend and or more mortal wounds and (since other armies are getting more rend and mortal wounds) better saves and/or ways to get wards at least on the heroes.

The Isharann characters should be pretty much re-done in my opinion. Soulcryer has pretty much a once per game thing. Same with the Tidecaster. At least those have some value. Soulrender is borderline useless. Lotann would be OK in a Namarti-heavy list. Maybe his bubble should be a little bigger.

I think the King should do something for everybody. The re-roll Ones is OK but the main reason to take him now is to make eels battleline and not having to bring Thralls. 

On the other hand beeing no too depended on characters can also be an upside. Other than a lot of other armies IDK still work pretty well even after the last hero is killed. Making characters more important could be a mixed bag.


Let's hope we get some more information early in the new year and can debate on more details and less speculation. 


 

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Hey I have seen the quality advise that has been coming from this thread and was wondering if I could seek some guidance.

I am about to head to my first event with the following battleplans which I have been struggling to find paths to victory with my army:

  • Apex Predators
  • Power In Numbers
  • Feral Foray

Below is the list I have been running:

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
 - Enclave: Fuethan
 - Grand Strategy: Dominating Presence
 - Triumphs: Bloodthirsty
LEADERS
Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Storm (330)**
- Artefact: Cloud of Midnight 
Isharann Tidecaster (105)**
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic 
- Lore of the Deeps: Vorpal Maelstrom
UNITS
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (250)*
- Retarius Net Launcher
- Razorshell Harpoon
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (250)*
- Razorshell Harpoon
- Retarius Net Launcher
10 x Namarti Reavers (115)**
10 x Namarti Reavers (115)**
10 x Namarti Thralls (120)**
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (155)**
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (155)**
BEHEMOTHS
Akhelian Leviadon (380)**
- Mount Trait: Ancient
CORE BATTALIONS
*Hunters of the Heartlands
**Battle Regiment
TOTAL: 1975/2000 WOUNDS: 119
LEADERS: 2/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 1/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4
ARTEFACTS: 1/1 ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS: 0/3 ALLIES: 0/400
REINFORCED UNITS: 2/4 DROPS: 3

It still seems to be struggling in the test games I have been playing with the scenarios against Stormcast and Legion of the first prince. Below is a list of the models I have access to and was wondering if there were any changes I should be making:

  • 1x Eidolon (aspect of the storm)
  • 1x Isharann Tidecaster
  • 1x Volturnos 
  • 4x Allopexes
  • 20x Reavers
  • 20x Thralls
  • 3x
  • 6x Ishlaen Guard
  • 6x Morrsarr Guard
  • 2x Leviadon 
  • 1x Lotann
  • 1x Soulrender

I have seen some use of the soulscryer online and would considering purchasing one if the upside is that important.

At the moment I am really looking for advise on any and all aspects as I seem to be losing a lot and hoping there are some improvements I can take away to start edging out some wins. Understand that it is hard to provide gameplay feedback without battle reports (or any detail really) so will try and capture notes / pictures from my next game :).

Is there any armys that Idoneth particularly struggle against and are there any tactics that can be employed to  combat that?

Thanks!

 

 

 

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First of all, @jbc94, I LOVE that list. It's an excellent TAAC list and should be able to compete in just about every scenario. 

But you have the advantage of knowing what the scenarios are going into them so let's take a look at each one and see what we're cookin with! 

Apex Predators:

Leaders capture objectives (but can then walk away, presuming that other heroes don't then sneak onto the objective). Eidolon is tailor made for this one. Easy to put him on one and then yeet him into high value targets. Key here is to murder all your opponent's heroes or pin them in their own deployment. Your list has the gas to do this and don't be afraid to throw away the ishlaen if it means your opponent won't be able to get to an objective. I usually put my Ishlaen in Hunters of the Heartland because they really really really like AoD and can issue commands to themselves so you'll almost always get value out of letting them use commands. 

Power in Numbers:

This one requires good generalship in regards to burning objectives. Your list has the speed and output to sneakily steal opponent's objectives and then immediately burn them if need be. Only advice here is to constantly calculate the score in your head if you burn/don't burn objectives. The goal here would be to burn all your objectives on turn 3 for 12 points and at least 2 of his for 2 points. At that point go ahead and get tabled because a 16-8 lead is basically insurmountable. Just use Aggressive expansion, conquer, monstrous takeover, and savage spearhead at some point to guarantee you at least 8 battle tactic points. I pick those out because they don't really require opponent interaction. 8 BT points puts you at 24-18 assuming your opponent never misses any. If you then fail your grand strat and he gets his while killing your leviadon, the final score is 24-22 you win. It should be super easy to hold onto the points margin if you can play the objective game well. Just play consistently and deliberately, understanding that being tabled in this scenario is not a big deal if you can pull off a big turn 3. 

Feral Foray:

Another crazy objective one! This one is actually a little harder since you don't want to lock yourself out of points. For this scenario, pinning your opponent in their own backfield is absolutely key. It's a hold one, hold 2, hold more sort of scoring, so always be sure that after burning you have 2 objectives LOCKED down to maximize your points. Going into turn 3, be aware that going second is a VERY large bonus since you get to remove an objective. But hopefully you've murdered everything by then. No mathematical trickery here, just be sure to burn sparingly to ensure that you always max your objective points every turn. 

 

All in all, your list is excellent and I really wouldn't change much (except drop the turtle for more sharks and that's a highly controversial opinion). 

 

As for matchups, new stormcast are reeeeeal pains in the butt. Best advice here it to premeasure EVERYTHING. He's gonna be able to drop 7" away. Make sure that you've used your namarti to prevent him coming in to bad touch your sharks/turtle. Any combo of Eidolon, turtle, and shark unit will kill anything in his army so always run them in tandem. NEVER let something be isolated and picked apart. Raptors are insanely good. Shoot them always with whatever you can. Use nets to pin dragon units and then spike them to minimize attacks back. They're gonna have incredible shooting so do your best to use namarti/ishlaen to soak it up while the hammers clear the table. Grandhammer annihilators will kill whatever they touch, even in a unit of 3. Use the cloud of midnight to bait their deepstrike, let them charge, pop the cloud, then retreat and charge them with a tandem unit for an easy kill. You can only do that once though, so be super careful with eidolon positioning. 

 

LoFP is pretty spooky but honestly not the worst matchup for us. Belakor doesn't really have great targets since the eidolon aura range is so far and the turtle output really isn't as high as people think. My advice here is to honestly just full send a hammer into Kairos (auto run 6" on shark unit with 14" move and then charge is insanely quick). If kairos gets hit by anything he will die. If you can bait him into a super defensive deployment, make him go first and waste a hero phase. The idea is that belakor won't have a good target for dark master and you can just focus on murdering everything. The khorne demon prince is super annoying and should be shot to death as soon as possible. This is another one where you have to evaluate his deployment and see if there are any gaps where you can throw a shark unit or two (remembering that kairos can auto change a single dice of a charge roll). Multi charges are your friends and playing aggressively is key. If you get a double turn the game should just end immediately. 

 

Other tough armies are things like gargs (easier now, just hit a mega with any THREE hammer units and tie the others up with unrendable Ishlaen in hunters battalion) and new nurgle (kill the characters IMMEDIATELY and score as fast as you can since the mortal wound chipping is absolutely brutal). Big bois like rotigus and new glottkin are gonna need THREE hammers to comfortably murder in a single round. Nurgle also requires some finesse around their deepstriking flies and ability to spot openings to slaughter little wizards. I also get very scared by Seraphon with the -1 damage thing. You gotta just go fast, kill infantry and wizards while scoring as fast as you can. 

The cardinal rule of deepkin, imo, is that a double turn in your favor should always win you the game. Playing aggressively to ensure that means you straight up win 40% of the time and then actually have to think the other 60%. 

Not to toot my own horn or anything but I've got a fair few batreps here that sort of outline my playstyle with deepkin and it's been pretty successful so far. 

Edited by vinnyt
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Does anyone here know the Deepkin siege allegiance rules from Wrath of the Everchosen? 
 

Me and my brother-in-law are getting the box and along with it’s battleplans & Realm Rules I was thinking that’d make for an ideal siege scenario too with Deepkin trying to breach the magmahold.

Edit: Nvm, lexicanum friends gave me a picture. :) 

Love the idea it’s their aethersea mists obscuring vision so they can sneak in under the cover of it’s darkness and defend within it.

image.png.eb546889c95944134d7b83d9578fe227.png

Edited by Baron Klatz
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The "Fury of the Deep" box goes into pre-order next Saturday.

Frankly I am not too thrilled that the box comes before the new battletome. If Namarti were improved I can incorporate another 10 Thralls and Reavers but if not I don't really need a new hero that will only benefit Namarti and would not want to buy (half of) a box for probably around 100 bucks.

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I plan on just kitbashing the Thrallmaster.  I could use another 10 reavers, but have enough thralls and I really dont want to deal with splitting a box anyway.  

Thinking about using the Underworlds hero since I have that box all sitting on sprue still.

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On 12/31/2021 at 2:31 AM, vinnyt said:

 

Apex Predators:

Leaders capture objectives (but can then walk away, presuming that other heroes don't then sneak onto the objective). Eidolon is tailor made for this one.

Aside from the excellent advice, please note that you lose the objective if you no longer have a friendly leader within 3", so you can't move off it, but you can put a slower Leader on it the turn after whilst the Eidolon goes hunting.

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8 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

Aside from the excellent advice, please note that you lose the objective if you no longer have a friendly leader within 3", so you can't move off it, but you can put a slower Leader on it the turn after whilst the Eidolon goes hunting.

you are absolutely correct! The tidecaster is an excellent backup hero for this purpose.

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Well...

Lotann lets Narmati re-roll ones on melee and for missile attacks and will probably be cheaper than the Thrallmaster.

The other two stances could be interesting for a Namarti-heavy army (again: Thralls benefit more than Reavers) - the defensive one probably even more that the exploding sixes. 

Not sure if that gets Namarti over the hump compared to Akhelian lists though.

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I'm a Soulblight player lurking here and occasionally wishing to expand into the Depths, haha. On the new Hero: I'd love Mor'phann with Lotann, Soulrenders and the Thrallmaster to become viable and on top I wish for another big monster with the new Battletome, preferably a Kraken. I think that'd be the point having me finally invest into the army. LRL's take on water will be interesting in the future too. 

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55 minutes ago, AHexInScarletRed said:

I'm a Soulblight player lurking here and occasionally wishing to expand into the Depths, haha. On the new Hero: I'd love Mor'phann with Lotann, Soulrenders and the Thrallmaster to become viable and on top I wish for another big monster with the new Battletome, preferably a Kraken. I think that'd be the point having me finally invest into the army. LRL's take on water will be interesting in the future too. 

you should make the dive and come over :D unfortunately the best (likely) option for a Kraken will probably be third party model played with leviadon rules... but new book could be good, fingers crossed!

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