AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion

[13_rolls]

@vinnyt I made an account on this board just to say thanks for the awesome write ups, I learned a ton :).

[readercolin]

Played against someone running eels today, and ran into a bit of confusion.

The new GW app has their Fanged Maw at -1 rend, while the old Azyr app has them at no rend.  There is nothing in the errata that would change their rend to -1, and I don't see any updated warscrolls anywhere that modified that to be -1.

So is the new app just being dumb and doing dumb app things (like it is with half the other armies out there...)?  Or was their warscroll actually updated somewhere (and if so, in which book so I can reference it?)

[DocKeule]

It is either just a mistake in the app (someone probably had to add all the profiles manually since they don't just use the PDF version of the warscroll any more) or we get an update via the White Dwarf some time soon.

Knowing GW I go for "mistake" 🤷‍♂️

[Drofnum]

On 11/4/2021 at 11:16 PM, readercolin said:

Played against someone running eels today, and ran into a bit of confusion.

The new GW app has their Fanged Maw at -1 rend, while the old Azyr app has them at no rend.  There is nothing in the errata that would change their rend to -1, and I don't see any updated warscrolls anywhere that modified that to be -1.

So is the new app just being dumb and doing dumb app things (like it is with half the other armies out there...)?  Or was their warscroll actually updated somewhere (and if so, in which book so I can reference it?)

It doesnt really matter if its a mistake or not, as the app is our source of warscrolls its correct until they fix the app. No books were published with the change but that doesnt mean it wasnt intentional, best option is to email the app team to make sure its correct but until it changes play with -1 rend.

It also wouldnt be the first time they made changes to scrolls in the app and didnt say anything about it.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Drofnum

[readercolin]

13 hours ago, Drofnum said:

It doesnt really matter if its a mistake or not, as the app is our source of warscrolls its correct until they fix the app. No books were published with the change but that doesnt mean it wasnt intentional, best option is to email the app team to make sure its correct but until it changes play with -1 rend.

It also wouldnt be the first time they made changes to scrolls in the app and didnt say anything about it.

And precisely where have they stated that official rules are now from the app first?  Everything that I have seen anywhere else says that the rules are official when they are:

Published in a book, with later publications overwriting previous publications (aka, The now current stormcast book overwrites the previous stormcast book, or the Warscrolls for the Idoneth turtle that were printing in Broken Realms: Morathi overwriting the warscroll printed in the Idoneth Deepkin battletome).

Updated in an Errata, again, with the latest publication overwriting previous publications. (aka, use the most recent errata, do not refer to previous errata's).

Nowhere in here does it say that the app will overwrite an official publication.  Additionally, considering the number of mistakes that have been found in the app already, it doesn't engender confidence that the app is actually correct.  Heck, they were getting incorrect warscrolls in the app for THE BRAND NEW STORMCAST BATTLETOME, with for example, the Lord-Arcanum on Taurelion having 12 wounds listed for him in the book and 10 wounds listed in the app (which was his pre-3.0 battletome wound count), despite having the rest of the warscroll correctly updated.  There is also still a bunch of confusion in Sylvaneth because sylvaneth wizards are now being listed with the spell to summon wyldwoods on their warscroll in the app, but it is a separate spell lore in the book, meaning that people are now wondering if they can summon wyldwoods when they bring allied/coalition sylvaneth.  If I go hunting around, I can probably find even more examples of incorrect warscrolls, or warscroll confusion that is entirely caused by random changes in the app that aren't backed up by any official printing of warscrolls.

Basically, I'm not seeing any convincing reason why we should be trusting the new AoS app when their current track record is already so poor, and I'm not seeing anywhere that states that the app overwrites printed rules.

[DocKeule]

With the old app most of the players (especially the tournament scene) would have agreed.

With the new app this is kind of a mixed bag. If you buy a new battletome you get the code to use it in the app (especially if you only buy the digital version). So now it is an official rule source. 

Plus the rules and profiles get updated to in theory the app should be a more reliable reference point than an outdated book and a pile of papers where you have to piece paragraphs together to get the current version of a rule.

[Drofnum]

46 minutes ago, readercolin said:

And precisely where have they stated that official rules are now from the app first?  Everything that I have seen anywhere else says that the rules are official when they are:

Where have they stated it isnt?  I just generally take the app as it is supposed to be the most up to date with FAQ's and all, honestly if I play something out of the app and its incorrect then it sucks but I would still play it that way. Positive or Negative.  I'm not going to bring 4 books with me + FAQ's to ensure everything is correct when the app should be doing that already.

Is that correct? Who knows, not even GW knows it seems but I will take the route that is less inconvenient personally.

[vinnyt]

Well, went 3-0 at a local tournament today and took 1st place with my deepkin! I've been posting a lot recently about my philosophy with the book so it was nice to win and not look like just a raving lunatic. 

 

Here's a link to the write-up! https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?vanity=MiniaturesByCarl&set=a.722248799168671

 

Basically it's the same story time and time again. This time it was against nurgle, cities of sigmar, and a 5 doombull beastman list. 

My list was:

Fuethan enclave:

- Eidolon of storm with cloud

- Tidecaster with master of magic

-soulscryer

 

-2x10 reavers

-1x10 thralls

 

-1x3 ishlaen

-2x2 sharks with 3 nets and a harpoon

 

-Leviadon with ancient

 

 

 

[Sonnenspeer]

Are we allowed to mix harpoons and nets in shark units. Wasn't sure about it as in lot of units you have to take the same weapon load out.

[vinnyt]

Just now, Sonnenspeer said:

Are we allowed to mix harpoons and nets in shark units. Wasn't sure about it as in lot of units you have to take the same weapon load out.

you are allowed to mix 

[Sonnenspeer]

7 minutes ago, vinnyt said:

you are allowed to mix

For me this sentence really could mean both, but I'm no native speaker:

"Each model in the unit is armed with 1 of the following weapon options: ..."

Also the Warscroll Builder doesn't let you mix nets and harpoons. 

 

[DocKeule]

The wording would suggest being able to use both options in one unit. 

I too have never done that because of the warscroll builder.

[Siorra]

And to make matters more confusing the current app doesn't even let you pick an option at all!

Speaking of options, how are people generally running their Leviadons? I thought Reverberating Carapace was the go-to for extra flexibility with the range, but Ancient is obviously great too.

Also can anyone else chip-in to my previous question about Volturnos taking mount traits? I really don't think you can, and I really don't think you can take a Leviadon AND a Deepmare trait without paying for additional enhancements through battalions.

[Drofnum]

With the way the rules are worded and no FAQ it actually looks like you can take a mount trait on Volty as well as taking both a Deepmare and Leviadon trait before using an enhancement.  I havent been playing it that way cause its obviously not the intent if you go by other factions rules, but I think they failed to add in the stipulations in the Broken Realms books. Unless there is a rule in the Core rules or the GHB i've missed(I hope there is).
 

Quote

If an Idoneth Deepkin army includes any HEROES mounted on a Deepmare, 1 of them can have a Deepmare mount trait. Choose or roll for the mount trait from the table below.
If an Idoneth Deepkin army includes any LEVIADONS, 1 of them can have a Leviadon mount trait. Choose or roll for the mount trait from the table below.
You can choose 1 extra HERO or LEVIADON to have a mount trait for each warscroll battalion in your army. A HERO or LEVIADON cannot have more than 1 mount trait, and the same mount trait cannot be taken more than once in the same army.

The first two paragraphs each give you a mount trait. Then the third stipulates how to get more traits.

Classic sloppy writing by GW.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Drofnum

[readercolin]

43 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

With the way the rules are worded and no FAQ it actually looks like you can take a mount trait on Volty as well as taking both a Deepmare and Leviadon trait before using an enhancement.  I havent been playing it that way cause its obviously not the intent if you go by other factions rules, but I think they failed to add in the stipulations in the Broken Realms books. Unless there is a rule in the Core rules or the GHB i've missed(I hope there is).

27.3.1: Enhancements cannot be given to Unique units (see 25.6.1) or allied units, unless noted otherwise.

[Drofnum]

2 minutes ago, readercolin said:

27.3.1: Enhancements cannot be given to Unique units (see 25.6.1) or allied units, unless noted otherwise.

Very nice for the Volturnos part, I thought it was in there somewhere but didnt have a chance to look.  Still seems as though can take a Leviadon and Deepmare trait without needing an enhancement though.

[readercolin]

13 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

Very nice for the Volturnos part, I thought it was in there somewhere but didnt have a chance to look.  Still seems as though can take a Leviadon and Deepmare trait without needing an enhancement though.

Mount traits are called out as an enhancement type, and the rule states that you can take 1 enhancement of each type for your army.  This is what would limit you from being able to take both a leviadon and deepmare trait without taking an enhancement.

the rule in question:

Quote

27.3:  Each set of allegiance abilities includes a number of enhancements that are given to specific units in an army. Enhancements are divided into command traits, artefacts of power, spell lores, prayer scriptures, mount traits, triumphs and one or more sets of unique enhancements. Enhancements are picked after you have chosen the battalions for your army (see 26.0). You can always take 1 enhancement of each type for your army, and the battalions or battlepack you are using may allow you to take additional enhancements for your army

 

[Drofnum]

Well there we go!  I'm glad i've been playing it that way, I assumed that is how it was meant to be.

[DocKeule]

17 hours ago, Siorra said:

And to make matters more confusing the current app doesn't even let you pick an option at all!

Speaking of options, how are people generally running their Leviadons? I thought Reverberating Carapace was the go-to for extra flexibility with the range, but Ancient is obviously great too.

Also can anyone else chip-in to my previous question about Volturnos taking mount traits? I really don't think you can, and I really don't think you can take a Leviadon AND a Deepmare trait without paying for additional enhancements through battalions.

I usually go with ancient. I run two Leviadons now most of the time to the extra range is not that important.

Problem with ancient is, that in only ignores rend -1 instead of lowering rend by one. I have found lately that a lot of the units that are chosen to fight the turtle have rend -2 or even higher.

[13_rolls]

would you bother magnetizing the eidolon so i can use it as either the wizard or non-wizard variants?

[Drofnum]

On 11/16/2021 at 11:14 AM, 13_rolls said:

would you bother magnetizing the eidolon so i can use it as either the wizard or non-wizard variants?

I run mine as both with the casters weapons.  The models are so similar I cant imagine anyone actually complaining about it not being the right one, its literally just weapon swaps.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Drofnum

[13_rolls]

3 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

I run mine as both with the casters weapons.  The models are so similar I cant imagine anyone actually complaining about it not being the right now, its literally just weapon swaps.

My thought was to just build the storm, and in a worst case, i have to build a sea later and run 2 (assuming rules changes, etc makes that make sense). swapping the in or out would be as easy as saying "this is a wizard" haha. just wanted some confirmation. It also seems like shipping off a weapon and magnetizing later wouldn't be the end of the world.

[Drofnum]

1 minute ago, 13_rolls said:

My thought was to just build the storm, and in a worst case, i have to build a sea later and run 2 (assuming rules changes, etc makes that make sense). swapping the in or out would be as easy as saying "this is a wizard" haha. just wanted some confirmation. It also seems like shipping off a weapon and magnetizing later wouldn't be the end of the world.

I thought about magnetizing them but the joints are so small it seemed like more of a pain than it was worth.  No one has ever noticed the difference in my games, or at least no one has said anything so I dont think it matters much in the end.

[13_rolls]

Any feedback on this list? I'm shooting for a 1k list that has the building blocks of @vinnyt's style of 2k list he's been sharing. Namely, relying on the turtle, sharks, tidecaster, and eidolon, and less on eels.

Here's what I've got so far:

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired
Isharann Tidecaster (105)*
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Lliandra's Last Lament
- Lore of the Deeps: Steed of Tides
10 x Namarti Reavers (115)*
10 x Namarti Reavers (115)*
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (250)*
- Razorshell Harpoon
- Reinforced x 1
Akhelian Leviadon (380)*
- Mount Trait: Reverberating Carapace
*Battle Regiment

Total: 965 / 1000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 2
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 57
Drops: 1

My thinking is the Tidecaster can flip the tides, and then take Lliandra's Last Lament to protect the double block of Reavers from battleshock. It can use Steed of Tides to help push off units while this smaller unit tries to take a side objective. Lastly, It could use master of magic to increase the odds of a disspell, if needed.

Since the list is lower in points, it could use the triumph Inspired to fire off +1 for the Reavers if they are blasting a ton of shots on the side of the board the hammers are not.

The Allopexes & Leviadon do their thing and hammer away.

The one-drop helps ensure I can go second and hope for the double turn / the opponent to move up aggressively before I strike hard on Turn 1, or if they hang back, I can also hang back a little.

Thoughts?

[Siorra]

22 hours ago, 13_rolls said:

would you bother magnetizing the eidolon so i can use it as either the wizard or non-wizard variants?

I modelled mine with the hook and the trident instead of the spear. Bit of a mix but visually it works well for both.