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Rumours on low Dominion sales - discussion


Enoby

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1 minute ago, Nos said:

Everybody includes beginners to the hobby then 

I think the main point here is that this is a launch box, not a starter set. It isn’t intended for complete beginners but any company would be stupid to actually come out and say ‘dont buy this if youre new’ it also isn’t intended to be bought multiple times and build a full army out of it, neither are the Start Collecting boxes by the way.

the actual starter set, like 40K, will come later and I’m guessing will mimic the 40K format of the Recruit, Elite and Command Edition boxes.

personally I’m not buying Dominion, I don’t have the money for it right now (I want a Stardrake! I’ve been putting it off for years) and I suspected it to be gone when I do. I have however secured the Stormcast half of the box. I’m waiting to see what the actual starter set is because I’m hoping for a small format rulebook like the 40K Elite/Command Edition has - I’m not a fan, and never have been, of the large hardback rulebooks. I don’t need the lore sections when I’m playing a game at the store or something. I much prefer digital purely because of the physical space it saves (and the lower prices means I can buy more models), but if 40K is anything to go by then digital books are as good as gone sadly 

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37 minutes ago, Joseph Mackay said:

Just like the Start Collecting boxes, you aren’t supposed to buy multiple boxes and build a full army out of them. They’re supposed to ‘get you started’ with an army

What kind of a stupid take this is? Beastclaw are a super easy get into army because you just buy the boxes….

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2 minutes ago, Feii said:

What kind of a stupid take this is? Beastclaw are a super easy get into army because you just buy the boxes….

It's not that it doesn't work in some cases, like Beastclaw and FEC, but from the perspective of GW you're not supposed to do it. And I think that's definitely reflected in the contents of most boxes, which generally don't provide good value if you buy them in multiples.

I think in the cases where it's an option, it's because the faction in questions has so few kits to choose from that the SC box kind of has to give you all the different types of units you need to build an army.

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I think there's something there about kruleboys suffering for coming off like a small faction (3 units and 4 heroes in Dominion, another hero and unit known to be on the way) in a way that wasn't obvious with starters/launch boxes for AoS 1.0/2.0, or even Indomitus.

Look at nighthaunt and you have a new faction but one which already had two heroes and two units available as kits from the old WHFB range. Same with bloodbound in AoS 1.0, even putting aside the StD range they already had a good amount of unique khorne units and characters that could be grandfathered in to show the breadth of the faction. Same with necrons in Indomitus.

Kruleboys don't have that. They have access to bonesplitters and ironjaws but if you're interested in kruleboys as kruleboys, holding your breath a little to see what else comes for this new range (and we have reason to believe that there's a few more kits on the way) is pretty reasonable. Probably not the biggest factor when determining Dominion's sales but it's an issue for this box in a way that it wasn't for the launch/starter boxes we compare it to.

Edited by sandlemad
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55 minutes ago, Joseph Mackay said:

I think the main point here is that this is a launch box, not a starter set. It isn’t intended for complete beginners but any company would be stupid to actually come out and say ‘dont buy this if youre new’ it also isn’t intended to be bought multiple times and build a full army out of it, neither are the Start Collecting boxes by the way.

the actual starter set, like 40K, will come later and I’m guessing will mimic the 40K format of the Recruit, Elite and Command Edition boxes.

personally I’m not buying Dominion, I don’t have the money for it right now (I want a Stardrake! I’ve been putting it off for years) and I suspected it to be gone when I do. I have however secured the Stormcast half of the box. I’m waiting to see what the actual starter set is because I’m hoping for a small format rulebook like the 40K Elite/Command Edition has - I’m not a fan, and never have been, of the large hardback rulebooks. I don’t need the lore sections when I’m playing a game at the store or something. I much prefer digital purely because of the physical space it saves (and the lower prices means I can buy more models), but if 40K is anything to go by then digital books are as good as gone sadly 

From the perspective of someone new to the hobby, this is marketed, very explicitly, as being for beginners and the place to start. Thats undeniable. 

 

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30 minutes ago, Feii said:

What kind of a stupid take this is? Beastclaw are a super easy get into army because you just buy the boxes….

Not a stupid take at all (frowns in Mod for your use of stupid).  The start collecting boxes were always intended to help you start collecting a new army or as an expansion of one.  The fact that for some armies you can buy multiples to make a reasonable matched play force doesn't change the fact that they weren't specifically intended for that.

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7 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

Not a stupid take at all (frowns in Mod for your use of stupid).  The start collecting boxes were always intended to help you start collecting a new army or as an expansion of one.  The fact that for some armies you can buy multiples to make a reasonable matched play force doesn't change the fact that they weren't specifically intended for that.

Sure but the dominion boxset is not a start collecting box and equalling it to it is just a logical fallacy. 
 

 

at the same time I dont care what is the objective idea in the boxes and the intention when obviously boxsets that are super good when you can buy 2 copies instead of one value wise will sell more. 

 

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48 minutes ago, Feii said:

Sure but the dominion boxset is not a start collecting box and equalling it to it is just a logical fallacy. 

I've not equalled Dominion as a start collecting box or starter set - in fact I explicitly said that it wasn't intended for beginners.

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2 hours ago, Nos said:

Everybody includes beginners to the hobby then 

Obviously good marketing is "yes this is a product you should buy" for all of your products.  But the fact remains, this box was never intended to sit on the shelf at the local game store for a curious newcomer to come by and look at. They expect/hope to sell through quickly, and the box that will be sitting in the store (age of sigmar: command edition, or whatever, which by the way is much better margin for them) will likely be much more clearly new player friendly.  (Eg, does not included hundreds of pages of rulebook for a game whose main selling point is: rules are free) 

 

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1 hour ago, Sowoky said:

Obviously good marketing is "yes this is a product you should buy" for all of your products.  But the fact remains, this box was never intended to sit on the shelf at the local game store for a curious newcomer to come by and look at. They expect/hope to sell through quickly, and the box that will be sitting in the store (age of sigmar: command edition, or whatever, which by the way is much better margin for them) will likely be much more clearly new player friendly.  (Eg, does not included hundreds of pages of rulebook for a game whose main selling point is: rules are free) 

 

You dont know what thre intentions of the box were or what GW's expectations are. Nobody besides GW do.

GW has never said.

What they have said at length and repeatedly is that this box is perfect for *anyone* looking to start 3rd edition. Not just on the product itself but in multiple lead ups to it and on the reveal itself. And it comes with a separate introductory booklet called "Start Here" (was reading my copy yesterday), hardly suggestive of content for seasoned veterans only.

So the argument that GW didnt Intend this for beginners is palpably false.  They've not just said it in passing, theyve said multiple times as one of its main selling points that this is for *anyone* to get into AOS and included content supportive of that statement 

Obviously you can make as many assumptions to the contrary as you like but you're going to have a job proving them on the basis of nothing vs GW's precise explanation as to who Dominion is for.

Although having looked at my box just now I recant what I said about the box comparisons above because they do actually show the respective forces in a cool  battle type scenario. 

 

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1 minute ago, Sonnenspeer said:

I spotted something else that will prevent beginners from starting this hobby:

The new translations of the faction names to German for example are irritating at best.

I refuse to use them and hope everybody else does the same. 

It's not like the previous solution of never translating any faction and model names was any better. Translating fictional names from English into other languages is always hard and sounds weird a lot of the time, but overall I think it's nice that GW are committing to full translations again.

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1 hour ago, Feii said:

A take I called stupid did. 

No, there is a difference between comparing something, and pointing out similarities, than saying "these things are equal."

Launch boxes, starter sets, start collecting sets, battleboxes, they all have something in common: They are lower margin product.  GW has a target gross margin, which for them is essentially "Dollars per sprue".(really more complicated than that factoring in hobby supplies, books, etc) All of the aforementioned products have a "dollars per sprue" lower than their target gross margin, so they have to be careful that they don't productize in such a way that these products are all you need. They need the average hobbies to spend most of their model dollars on higher margin product.

So while there are obviously examples, BCR, where you can build a whole, competitive army out of discount boxes, that is not GW's business model, and it would be "not smart" of you to argue against that. 

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People can claim that Indomitus and Dominion are "not starter sets" all they want, but I guarantee that, 6 or 8 years from now when GW does another article looking back through the ages of WFB/AoS and 40K, they will ABSOLUTELY put these boxes on their list of previous starter sets.

The 9th Edition 40K starter set will be the limited-edition-impossible-to-get Indomitus box, not the "command edition whatever-box" that people could actually purchase to get into the game.  Same with 3rd Ed AoS–  The "greatest Warhammer starter set of all time" will be the Indomitus box, not the half-size and quarter-size starter boxes that they'll inevitably announce in a couple weeks and keep in permanent availability through the life of AoS 3.

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As someone who has been in the hobby for now... a significant number of years... if I knew someone looking to get into AOS, I would absolutely point to Dominion and say "That's a fantastic entry point, try to find someone to split one with you and it's more or less a full 2000 point army." (And then disclose, depending on how things shake out, that a duplicate Yndrasta or third battleline hurdle may have to be overcome.)

In my mind as someone in the hobby, its 100% a entry/starter product.  

Maybe not for the minis gaming hobby as a whole, but for AOS?  Certainly. 

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+++ MOD HAT +++

Think we've probably veered off track for a little longer than we should have on the subject of what's a starter set and what isn't (and yes, I'm applying this to myself too).  Could we try to pull the topic back onto the original topic please 😊

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13 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

I blame the previous and existing player base for this being an issue, because just like the fantasy ‘old guard’ people are ‘gatekeeping’ 

new guy rocks up with his 1 cool hero and a couple of small units looking for a game at the store, everyone laughs at them and says ‘come back when you’ve got 2000pts’

Matched Play is NOT the only way to play, in fact, the game is actually designed around Open Play (as proven by AoS1 pre Generals Handbook). However, Matched Play is the ‘easiest’ way to play with people at the local store

I feel that on army size. I recently played Grimdark Future with an old hand who doesn't like modern 40k (fair enough) and thus wanted to use this indie system. That's fine, I was curious about it, and he made us play 4000 points since it's a similar scale to 2000 points in 40k. That system is fine, but boy does it not feel good at that size. I feel it would have been fine at 2000 points, but that's the closest size to what he was used to and he didn't want to play a smaller game. I couldn't convince him to go smaller. Not fun.

There is something fun about playing AoS or 40k at 750 or 1000 points. Small games can be great. That's why it's a pretty good starter for people who like the factions. If someone new brought the Kruleboyz I would let them run it as 1000 pts even with only one battleline. It's not like the Hobgrots are some power unit.

Edited by dirkdragonslayer
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Ignoring what is probably off-topic chat: Here's my two cents based on something I learned from my local Warhammer store manager about how Indomitus went.

What I knew back then: Indomitus sold out online in the first 15 minutes or so. My local store had 12 boxes left over and openly admitted he had pre-ordered too many (I bought one out of sympathy)

What I learned this weekend: He ordered 50 and sold 38. I'd complain about him pulling my heartstrings, but the box currently goes for $240 now, so I can offload it for even price (thanks for enforcing taxes, Internet). I preordered Dominion online this time, and he's only getting 12 boxes (which I'll probably pick up one if available and I want more Kruelboyz).

When I entered the queue at the initial opening with everyone else I was #2811; Expected to arrive at 12:19 (CST), but actually arrived between 12:08 and 12:09.

I didn't hear what happened with Indomitus Made to Orders. If I had to guess, not that many new boxes had to be made because they just recalled unsold boxes from their stores and had more than enough.

P.S. I will mention that the reason I got Cursed City was because the store manager had mentioned CC sold out and I should probably ask it set aside. I sincerely believe that GW knew they weren't going to restock it, and gave managers the heads-up notification on prerelease weekend.

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14 hours ago, dirkdragonslayer said:

There is something fun about playing AoS or 40k at 750 or 1000 points.

Apologies for quickly going off topic, I love playing at this point level... so hard to find people willing to do it though. In my area it's generally 2k or GTFO. 

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1 hour ago, schwabbele said:

Does it really matter if it sells good or bad?

 

For someone playing at AoS the moment, no not really. In the future, maybe - but really depending on a lot of other factors. 

If if sold very poorly (and I want to emphasise "if" because we don't know) and other AoS products also sold poorly, then it could lead into a change in GW's plan around AoS - perhaps less support, or a greater focus on a particular well selling faction, or a change in strategy surrounding AoS, or any other number of things. We can't say for certain, but that's what the thread is there to speculate on.  

If on the other hand only Dominion sold poorly and all other AoS product sold really well, then it probably won't matter much. Maybe there'd be less focus on Kruelboyz or Stormcast, but it wouldn't be noticeable for the majority of players.

If it sold well, then great! Dominion selling well is really just a good thing for AoS as it furthers support into the game.

I think people are worried because there's a chance (but no definite answer) that AoS 3's flagship product hasn't sold as well as predicted, and maybe this could possibly bode poorly for the rest of the game. Maybe it's absolutely nothing and we're getting worked up for no good reason. Hopefully so! But if not, then it could be important (no clue why this has gone red) for the future of the game. 

Edited by Enoby
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1 hour ago, schwabbele said:

Does it really matter if it sells good or bad?

 

"Fantasy is selling bad but no worries, GW will always keep around a game system that helped built this company"

ENTER END TIMES.

In all seriousness, maybe?  We honestly wont see the ramifications either way for a while but if Age of Sigmar is not selling as well as GW wants, there might make some changes or realign some things in the future.  

I'm hoping that if it truly did sell bad, that is more of a general "meh" for SCE's and Kruleboyz then a general disdain for the game itself. 

On the other hand if it did sell as well as GW expects then that will generally show a positive public reaction for the game and ensure that it will keep being updated for the foreseeable future

Edited by King Under the Mountain
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Tbh after a brief chat with a LGS friend and general vibing i think this box has sold at the level they expected Indomnitus to sell at, IE splash release around for a little while. Of course they may not have been the goal this time given the mad sales last year but i do expect GW did not anticipate AoS outselling 40k by any means. 

The Future is still bright! :)

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