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Rumours on low Dominion sales - discussion


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1 minute ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Not sure how much this influences the popular perception of Dominion "failing", but it might play into it.

I think it’s the noise factor. Those who aren’t fans of AOS or GW relish in this sort of thing. I have no issue with people being critical of GW or AOS (or any game) as long as it’s constructive. Anything else is just annoying and not nice to read.

On about the Heresy leak - I don’t think this would have effected sales much. Most people interested in Heresy would be getting it anyway and if they wanted Dominion, they would probably get it if they wanted it. 
 

I suspected if Dominion had some filthy units in it, it would have sold out instantly. It’s a great set and like I said if there are some around when I’m in Warhammer world, I can see me getting a copy but it’s not high on my list. 

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6 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

The grudge against AoS is still quite alive in some parts of the warhammer community. Some people really resent AoS for being "responsible" for the end of the Old World and other still really hate Stormcast and think they are just fantasy space marines. This would not be much of a problem if it stayed localized to Warhammer Fantasy communities, but I do occasionally see posts to the effect of "I decided not to get into Age of Sigmar because I heard GW will just squat the setting when Old World comes out". I think there are definitely some people who are still 100% convinced that nobody actually likes AoS and it's just a matter of time before the game fails and Fantasy comes back.

Not sure how much this influences the popular perception of Dominion "failing", but it might play into it.

I have to admit I was in that camp at the beginning. I'd grown up with the Old World and so felt a real attachment to the locations, the races, the stories. 

AoS 1.0 came along and threw all of that out of the window. I didn't burn my army or anything, but I did avoid anything AoS for some time, focusing on 30k. It wasn't until just after 2.0 that I started following lore videos (shout out to the positivity of 2+ Tough for helping there) and took a fresh look at some of the miniatures. Now as 3.0 is almost with us, most of my focus is on AoS compared to other GW games. I consider it a much fresher and interesting system than 40k for example. 

So yeah I'm looking forward to Dominion, I love the Kruleboyz, I can't wait to read more about my favorite realm (Ghur) and I also cannot wait to see what else is coming. 

 

 

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No problem with hate towards GW, they make enough "mistakes" to deserve it

Hate against AoS is something different as there are those who really hate it for what it is as they want to play something else but for reasons cannot or want not do it so are pissed because they cannot play at all

Than there are those who fear GW will do the same to AoS as to WHFB as soon as the community was milked enough and having the 3rd re-work of the Poster Boy faction within a short timeframe does not help with this either

So here people are much more careful what they buy because they don't know if the purchase today is still useable tomorrow (and this is a big driving factor for 40k, to know that Marines will still be there and you will find people to play)

So back to the mistakes from GW, not telling enough details about the new factions in the box hinders sales, because this is not 40k were people know what to expect from Marines and buy the box blind

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14 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

The grudge against AoS is still quite alive in some parts of the warhammer community. Some people really resent AoS for being "responsible" for the end of the Old World and other still really hate Stormcast and think they are just fantasy space marines. This would not be much of a problem if it stayed localized to Warhammer Fantasy communities, but I do occasionally see posts to the effect of "I decided not to get into Age of Sigmar because I heard GW will just squat the setting when Old World comes out". I think there are definitely some people who are still 100% convinced that nobody actually likes AoS and it's just a matter of time before the game fails and Fantasy comes back.

Not sure how much this influences the popular perception of Dominion "failing", but it might play into it.

First of all, anger over the demise of WHFB is very justified. It was an extremely crabby move from GW, from a consumer perspective, and it broke a tradition of miniatures being supported for decades. Anyone telling me otherwise already makes me raise an eyebrow.

Second, immediate comparisons between AoS and WHFB are natural since one is meant to replace the other. GW bringing back TOW is only going to make these comparisons more obvious.

Third, people disliking the fixation of GW with power armored Mary Sues is not strange. I get that some like the models and lore and that's just a matter of preference, but quite obviously GW is pushing extremely hard for them, this is not demand driven. The % people playing them and the attention they receive are very imbalanced. The way that GW tries to insist in people buying the latest SCE sculpts is not consumer friendly either, or so am I told (e.g. supporting only a fraction of the model range with decent rules).

That said, this doesn't mean I believe it is nice or constructive to constantly wishing the worst to AoS. But that's not what I see around here. Most people in TGA are playing / collecting AoS models and would like a smoothly working game to play. Insinuating that those are just hatred filled grognards is strawmanning and dismissive.

As to whether the release is a flop or not, it seems that it is selling, just not the way some other releases did. Good, I'd be worried otherwise. GW needs to learn that constant "hYYYpe!!" and "NeeWWw!!" are not sustainable. I like that they are slowing down the release of new armies, going for larger ranges, and consolidating the rest.

 

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1 hour ago, SunStorm said:

I have to admit I was in that camp at the beginning. I'd grown up with the Old World and so felt a real attachment to the locations, the races, the stories. 

AoS 1.0 came along and threw all of that out of the window. I didn't burn my army or anything, but I did avoid anything AoS for some time, focusing on 30k.

I think that's a super fair and understandable reaction. Especially during the beginning period of AoS, which I think most people will admit was a bit of a disaster. I was on a break from Warhammer at the time, but when I heard the news I still remember thinking that ending the old world to replace Fantasy with what was essentially a non-game at the start was a mistake. And even though I prefer the way AoS plays to the old rank and file style of Fantasy and believe that the switch to the Mortal Realms as a setting was a good move, overall, I can't with 100% certainty say that trying to reboot/refresh Warhammer Fantasy without ending that setting (like a lot of Fantasy fans say GW should have done) would have had no chance of working.

Edited by Neil Arthur Hotep
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The Old World to AoS change over was a huge mess and a huge amount of the anger was because after years of basically ignoring Old World, GW did the huge End Times campaign. Loads of new lore, BL books, really modern and big models (that's when we first saw Foregeworld sized Greater Demons appearing in plastic). GW basically hyped up the product and then destroyed it without any warning because they kept AoS super secret (even staff in GW HQ didn't have a clue in some departments). That AoS at launch was just a boutique model line with no game or rules or points (there were some joke rules but it wasn't a game at that stage) was a huge salt to the wound. 

GW could have done the whole transfer ever so much better. Of course the resulting fallout was that GW changed up their upper management; changed their attitude toward the internet and marketing; changed a huge bunch of stuff with AoS and things have improved a lot. 
The result of the mistake is that GW is in the strongest position they have ever been in and we have some outstanding models; we have GW media 7 days a week and heck in a few months they are launching a new animation streaming service and if that does well we might get even more animated TV shows. This is the stuff of DREAMS. Heck we got total war Warhammer - another dream come true for many!

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I think it's all relative. The way indomitus sold out quickly, created a further hype for it. When people who were on the fence saw they couldn't get it anymore, they wanted it more. When the made to order was announced shortly afterwards I think lots of people bought one because they had missed out, and were now given another chance. I know there were many who did want one and weren't able to get one, but I think the way the release was handled inflated the hype (whether GW underestimating demand or issues with COVID or probably a mixture). I nearly even bought one at the made to order stage and I've had no interest in 40k for years. I slapped myself and said no! A year on very happy with that decision. If GW had produced the full qty of indomitus that they eventually sold (through made to order) and had them available from day 1, I doubt they would have actually sold the same total qty.

I feel that's what's probably happened with dominion. Because availability is still there, people who are on the fence about it haven't pulled the trigger. I highly doubt GW have produced anywhere near the same qty of dominion to that of indomitus (cos of the popularity of 40k, the already well established armies in the box etc).

I did preorder dominion from Dark Sphere through their register of interest, was great value. I mainly went for it for the core book. I'm not sure at this stage if I'll keep the minis or sell them. I'll keep them for now and see how I feel after I've got through some of my backlog. I must say the Kruleboyz have grown on me a lot since their first reveal. Looking forward to the next preview to see what else is coming for them.

 

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2 hours ago, Greybeard86 said:

First of all, anger over the demise of WHFB is very justified. It was an extremely crabby move from GW, from a consumer perspective, and it broke a tradition of miniatures being supported for decades. Anyone telling me otherwise already makes me raise an eyebrow.

 

 

Maybe not the right place to say this but I remember the hype around End Times.  I bought new minis in the first time in like 5 years so I can use The Dwarf Throng of Karaz-a-Karak formation.  People were pulling out their Fantasy armies that had been collecting dust for years and suddenly all the stores near me were running End Time events.  

And then the whiplash once they announced AoS.  The part that drove me from the game was the rules or lack of them.  I remember even speaking to a GW rep at NYCC'15 and him telling me how awesome it would be now that I can bring Dwarfs, Dark Elves and any other unit I wanted in the same army!  I almost died laughing.  Unfortunately in my anger I threw away the special coin they gave away at the event (I think it was a coin).  Would love to have that now. 

Anyway I eventually learned to love AoS (after the rules and factions had been cleaned up) and now I think its a great addition to Warhammer.  But a lot of people never moved on from how I felt.  It's a shame because most of that was part of the old GW regime while the new was is doing (mostly) a great job.  

 Finally as negative as I've been in this thread I am never rooting against AoS.  I want it to succeed and live a long and fruitful life.  I just GW would rethink their approach to Stormcast.  I have nothing against the faction it just feels like GW is manufacturing a fanbase instead of letting them stand on their own. 

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Although I personaly find more joy in sharing our enthousiasm, about  this hobby we have in common, I definately have no problem with people being critical or cynical about GW or AOS.

In most cases I find it justified, or otherwise at least understandable that people got frustrated, upset, or even emotional about radical changes to the game that directly affect the army or armies they collected over the years., as most of us put a lot of time, effort love and money in this hobby, some may even dedicate their lives to it.

And even if I wouldn't understand, then still I think everyone have the right to ventilate their displeasure or frustration about anything.

I just think that like someone said,  the general perception that Dominion is a failure, and sales are low, may also be, because of a considerable group of people out there that for whatever reason like GW to fail. It may be for reasons in the past (like the end of the old world, and how GW handled that), the present (new AOS 3.0 rules) or a general dislike of big, $$$ companies like GW. 

I think if you really like something to happen (GW to fail), it doesn't need much to make you actual;ly believe it does, even if the proof is mostly indirect. Guess thats how the human mind (in general) deals with these kind of emotions. So things like Dominion didn't sell out immediately (which most ppl expected to happen), reminders, special offers, individual stories of resellers that ordered to much, all of that can have various reasons, but in the mind of someone who really like GW to fail, this easily evolves into a fact: it is a total failure (hurray). 

At least that is what I think. But as said, that doesn't mean that I think their anger is not justified.

 

 

 

Edited by Lowki
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They really are damned if they do, damned if they don't. They sell out each  boxed set release in minutes, so order a massive amount more so everyone can get one and then you have clowns online "iT NoT SoLd OuT In TwO MiNuTeS FAiL!!" so stupid... 

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55 minutes ago, Hollow said:

They really are damned if they do, damned if they don't. They sell out each  boxed set release in minutes, so order a massive amount more so everyone can get one and then you have clowns online "iT NoT SoLd OuT In TwO MiNuTeS FAiL!!" so stupid... 

I don't think anyone is angry at GW for not selling out of Dominion - unless you're looking in very different places than I am, the talk isn't "haha AoS fail" but rather people genuinely worried (or at least cautious) for the game. Whether rightly or wrongly, people are concerned about a game they love and this thread was created for people to discuss these concerns, not to complain or laugh at GW's failures. 

Not just you, but I think a few people in the thread seem to think this thread/people participating in it is about ragging on GW, hence the "damned if they do or don't" comments that have popped up a few times. I don't think these comments quite fit because it would suggest people complain if they sell out and people complain if they don't, whereas at least here no one is complaining they didn't sell out, they're speculating as to why or may be worried that they game isn't as popular as hoped.

I'm not meaning to attack you, but I just worry your comment may have missed the point of the thread and what other replies are saying :) 

Edited by Enoby
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I do wonder if it's possible that some people are just waiting to see the errata documents before committing to this new edition. I mean that's where I am right now. I haven't pre-ordered the GHB because I want to see if they actually manage to release good quality fixes to the army lists first. 

Now if GW marketing had any sense, they'd probably have released the errata files when the GHB flick through went up on YouTube. Instead they've kind of left things to fester for a few weeks. That can't be good for business.

Then there was the GW article from a few days ago, which came across as a bit desperate, where they were trying to defend their changes to points costs. Something which I don't think they did very well.

So, it's entirely possible that they're frantically re-editing the errata documents before release so that they can then turn around and say - see, we fixed it all. 

At which point Dominion sales may increase again.

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Yeah i dont think its unusual to have mixed feelings about AoS still afters its abysmal launch. I think most folks are moving past outright hatred though, at least if they are paying attention, the future feels a lot more interesting and bright for AoS than 40k which feels like its disappearing up its own backside somewhat :/ 

 

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I mean I know I quit on GW for several years after the AoS switch and didn't come back till early 2nd.  I ebayed most of my models in the heat of the moment, including some things I now regret selling.  I do think that resentment definitely lingers.  I think the biggest thing that contributed to it all was that GW convinced themselves they were a models company and the rules just did not matter.  They had been saying it for years, and I think the AoS switch was the culmination of them testing out that theory.  I'd like to think they learned their lesson, especially with them finally doing things like bringing official GW tourneys back to the US.

That being said I don't feel like lingering AoS resentment has anything to do with any potential reduction in 3rd sales.  AoS has been selling like gangbusters overall. Its not 40k but its significantly more profitable then fantasy was at the end from everything I've read.  We've got to remember that at the end there fantasy was barely breaking even.  Wasn't the basic spacemarine box selling more then the entire fantasy range combined?  Like it was 100% GW's fault that things got to that point, but its not like they took the drastic step they did out of nowhere.  The game had been ailing for a while.  I think the step they took was 100% the wrong one, but they have clearly recovered and learned from it.  Don't think AoS is going anywhere.

If there was a 3rd sales drop off, my feeling its mostly just the timing.  They condensed the post covid release schedule into such a tight timeframe that the end of edition releases just wore people out I think.  They should have delayed 3rd some, but I get why they didn't (you don't want product just sitting in your warehouse like that).  I think they will be fine, and if it didn't hit their expectations I feel like it probably wasn't off by much.  But this is all conjecture.

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31 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

Yeah i dont think its unusual to have mixed feelings about AoS still afters its abysmal launch. I think most folks are moving past outright hatred though, at least if they are paying attention, the future feels a lot more interesting and bright for AoS than 40k which feels like its disappearing up its own backside somewhat :/ 

 

Yep. I feel like 40k has been going downhill since mid 5th edition and hasn't really recovered. I had high hopes for the Sisters of Battle release but then GW decided to slap heavy bolters into the hulls of existing tanks, reduced the base size of penitent engines and made the new flail superior to the old buzzsaws, just to make more £. Then they dropped a second Sisters codex not long after the first one. I got 2 games in with the old codex before this new one arrived. :/

it's a sad state of affairs when every rumour of a release by GW is quickly followed by a stomach churning fear that they'll kill off half your army just because they can.

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1 hour ago, SentinelGuy said:

Yep. I feel like 40k has been going downhill since mid 5th edition and hasn't really recovered. I had high hopes for the Sisters of Battle release but then GW decided to slap heavy bolters into the hulls of existing tanks, reduced the base size of penitent engines and made the new flail superior to the old buzzsaws, just to make more £. Then they dropped a second Sisters codex not long after the first one. I got 2 games in with the old codex before this new one arrived. :/

it's a sad state of affairs when every rumour of a release by GW is quickly followed by a stomach churning fear that they'll kill off half your army just because they can.

To be fair, only like 12 people had a Sisters army at that time and of them maybe 3 ever bothered going through the heartache of assembling those ridiculous (and terrible on the tabletop at the time) metal penitent engines and the only things that really suffered in the new book were the new models and the exorcist/immolator. Even then, the immolator was bad before.

Edited by Fred1245
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5 minutes ago, Fred1245 said:

To be fair, only like 12 people had a Sisters army at that time and of them maybe 3 ever bothered going through the heartache of assembling those ridiculous (and terrible on the tabletop at the time) metal penitent engines and the only things that really suffered in the new book were the new models and the exorcist/immolator. Even then, the immolator was bad before.

The metal exorcist may be the most fiddly kit I've ever had to attempt to build. I actually gave up building a second and just took more dominions instead.

The rest of the old metal kits were pretty easy though. 

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14 minutes ago, Fred1245 said:

To be fair, only like 12 people had a Sisters army at that time and of them maybe 3 ever bothered going through the heartache of assembling those ridiculous (and terrible on the tabletop at the time) metal penitent engines and the only things that really suffered in the new book were the new models and the exorcist/immolator. Even then, the immolator was bad before.

I finally made the top three in something Warhammer related! Woohoo!

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I guess there are several reasons for all that.

Coming out of Covid people are carefully in general to spend money and if other players would even be available to play against.

Beside that, it's the regular SCE starter box nobody wants to see anymore and we have like 8 destruction players world wide.

I would say low selling rates are not unexpected

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48 minutes ago, Kurrilino said:

Beside that, it's the regular SCE starter box nobody wants to see anymore and we have like 8 destruction players world wide.

I would say low selling rates are not unexpected

Sad to say, but Destruction does seem to have the lowest active playerbase, at least based on this site's subforums and other forums like Dakka or Reddit. There's a big burst of activity due to Kruleboyz and a new edition, but the Destruction subforum usually only has 2-4 responses a day across all topics. It's why you almost never see a Destruction post on the front page unless there is a new release, while there is always discussions on things like Lumineth, Hedonites, Duardin, or Beasts of Chaos. Obviously forum posts aren't the complete indicator of popularity, but it can help get a rough idea on it.

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On the flipside several different community surveys I've seen have put Gloomspite and Ironjawz as two of the most popular factions in the game.

And, like, people have this idea that Lumineth are popular but that's just because they had a big release and they get a lot of discussion because of their intensely crunchy rules that have a lot of controversial elements to them. There's little evidence any of this has translated into mass sales. It's not like Lumineth videos on youtube (lore/painting/battle reports) get uniquely higher numbers than usual, in fact a few channels I watch it's sometimes the opposite. Of the two LGS's near me, both still have stock of the LE army box and both managers have said the range isn't a massive mover despite the local area having an active AOS collector community.

It's obvious GW intend for Lumineth to be a significant sales presence and they have pushed them aggressively, but I'd say they've been out for long enough to get a rough idea that they've not taken over the game by any stretch. This is unlike something like Sisters of Battle where they were very vocal about the basic squad box becoming the single biggest seller of any of their products in 2019 (outselling all of the Marine stuff btw) and are now aggressively marketing them as being one of the new faces/postergirls of the game.

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1 hour ago, dirkdragonslayer said:

Sad to say, but Destruction does seem to have the lowest active playerbase, at least based on this site's subforums and other forums like Dakka or Reddit. There's a big burst of activity due to Kruleboyz and a new edition, but the Destruction subforum usually only has 2-4 responses a day across all topics. It's why you almost never see a Destruction post on the front page unless there is a new release, while there is always discussions on things like Lumineth, Hedonites, Duardin, or Beasts of Chaos. Obviously forum posts aren't the complete indicator of popularity, but it can help get a rough idea on it.

i don't know about that numbers else where indicate that death is often has the lower player base and i don't think this forum is a indication of the general population, it just not much to talk about when it comes to play and list building

also i know the GSG subreddit has a good amount of people in it

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I really think Dominion has two drawbacks.

1) the new Stormcast aren't really that exciting. Yndrasta and the bodyguard unit are cool, but as a casual AoS player I have no need for more Stormcast battle line, and have support characters for days. I really think this spot should have been used for a different Order army. I can't emphasize this point enough fireslayers, sylvaneth, IDK, or KO all would have been better choices because they have limited ranges. 

2) The Kruleboyz are a pretty basic fraction at the moment. They need to show something that makes fraction feel unique. They have a distinctive LotR look, which appeals to people but you need some substance with that style.

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5 minutes ago, the Fel-hand said:

I really think Dominion has two drawbacks.

1) the new Stormcast aren't really that exciting. Yndrasta and the bodyguard unit are cool, but as a casual AoS player I have no need for more Stormcast battle line, and have support characters for days. I really think this spot should have been used for a different Order army. I can't emphasize this point enough fireslayers, sylvaneth, IDK, or KO all would have been better choices because they have limited ranges. 

2) The Kruleboyz are a pretty basic fraction at the moment. They need to show something that makes fraction feel unique. They have a distinctive LotR look, which appeals to people but you need some substance with that style.

They have to do something with SCE battleline units. It really feels like people which have the og liberators want to use them. I want to use my sequitors and other battleline is not doing it for me. If it goes this way I dont understand what will another battleline SCE unit offer to us in some years time. 
 

not to mention we are getting another shooty boys. 
 

krule boyz bot having their battletome feels like a huge mistake. I was hoping for a standalone faction that can ally in orruks or so and is centered around Kragnos. Second fiddle crackheads is not exactly the best advertising motto. 

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