Rumours on low Dominion sales - discussion

[Clan's Cynic]

22 hours ago, Landohammer said:

Is Stormcast popular as a faction? Or do people just own models because of starter kits? I go to a lot of tournaments and in my meta pure stormcast armies are extremely rare. Like rarer than BOC, NH or Sylvaneth. 

Most SC models I see on the table are in cities armies or as allies. 

Tournaments are not a good indicator of overall popularity. If you use tournament data as a basis, you'd be mistaken for believing Fyreslayers are one of the most popular armies in the game, which plainly is not the case.

You saw something similar in 2019 with the huge overrepresentation of Genestealer Cults compared to how many people actually played them casually.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Clan's Cynic

[RuneBrush]

16 hours ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Polling seems to suggest Stormcast are plenty popular, if not the most popular army in the game, it's just the gap between them and the next most popular army isn't anywhere near as wide as Space Marines.

Take Necrons for example - compare how much cheaper you can get their Indomitus contents compared to Primaris on the second hand market, but I don't think anybody would describe them as unpopular, particularly after their range update, just not anywhere near Marine numbers. 

Mortal Realms also massively inflated the second-hand Stormcast (and Nighthaunt) market the same way it did Death Guard.

Remember even before the new Battletome was announced, it wasn't difficult at all to grab the Lumineth Army Box either, but they're undoubtedly one of the more popular armies.

I think popular is a bit of a subjective term.  By popular do we mean the number of people who own a Stormcast army (in some shape or form), or do we mean the number of people who actively play a Stormcast army?

Stormcast are a good army to start off with.  They can have a fairly straightforward playstyle, the miniatures are easy to assemble and enjoyable to paint, plus they're the poster boys, so we know they're going to get solid support throughout each version of the rules.  As you say they're available in plentiful supply to, having been included in all 3 versions of the boxed game and within the Mortal Realms magazines.

For me I feel Stormcast don't inspire the passion that other forces do.  I know many greenskin generals who are borderline fanatical about their armies, yet can't think of ever encountering this within Stormcast.

[Naem]

How do we actually know, that Dominion sales were low? Do we have any number? Because you can't assume that just from the fact that there are still boxes available. We don't know how much they made, maybe they just hugely increased the number to account for the demand and overdid it a little. 

[Chikout]

The other question that occurs to me is this. Did Soul Wars ever go out of stock?

With other popular products we have seen them quickly sell through their launch allocation, then get a second run a bit later, but I don't remember Soul Wars ever going out of stock. Obviously it wasn't a limited product but did GW ever get to the point where they needed to do a second run?

The big question for Dominion is not really how well it sold compared to Indomitus but how well it sold compared to Soul Wars. I don't suppose we'll know the answer to that unless GW discusses it in their financial report which is due on July 27th. 

[Overread]

Indomitus and Dominion were differently designed products. GW's idea was basically to provide a higher cost all in one box with two armies, terrain and the big rule book for sale for established fans. Then those cycle out of stock and the starting sets cycle in for real beginners -offering slightly less models and content at 3 tiers of pricing for newbies. 

 

It's a shift away from the old single starter box at a single price into a 3 layered system at 3 different prices.

 

Dominion and Indomitus are not "intended" to be long term products. They are one print one sale and when the stock is gone they are gone. Thing is even if Dominion sells slowly its still likely to sell as it offers the best value for money and it will remain valid right up until the last weeks before 4th edition

[papary]

18 minutes ago, Chikout said:

The other question that occurs to me is this. Did Soul Wars ever go out of stock?

With other popular products we have seen them quickly sell through their launch allocation, then get a second run a bit later, but I don't remember Soul Wars ever going out of stock. Obviously it wasn't a limited product but did GW ever get to the point where they needed to do a second run?

The big question for Dominion is not really how well it sold compared to Indomitus but how well it sold compared to Soul Wars. I don't suppose we'll know the answer to that unless GW discusses it in their financial report which is due on July 27th. 

im not sure it ever went out of stock tbh, there was a copy in the last chance to buy of my local gw at the weekend. 

 

I do wonder why they have moved to the 3 starter box method ( ok, i know its profits related) rather than keeping a big box around, the buy in between dominion/the biggest of the 3 new boxes isn't much different is it? 

[Overread]

Soul Wars never went out of stock because GW would just produce more if it did. Right up until the last months before the new edition at which point GW would scale back restocking in advance of the new release

[ian0delond]

For Indomitus, they projected the initial run to last until Christmast. Being immediatly sold out was them really thinking a box this expensive will only be an impulse buy for a very small portion of their customers. 

The Made to Order was really because they failed to make the product available as long as they projected. 

Dominion may be had an overly adjusted number of copy. 

[Chikout]

37 minutes ago, Overread said:

Soul Wars never went out of stock because GW would just produce more if it did. Right up until the last months before the new edition at which point GW would scale back restocking in advance of the new release

But popular items go out of stock before gw can make more. The Soulblight battletome is out of stock right now. As far as I'm aware Soul Wars was never that popular. 

It's obviously impossible to know, but I'd be very curious to learn how many runs of the Soul Wars box GW did.  Warcry and the 8th edition Kill team weren't marketed as limited but GW didn't do a second run of either of those products. 

[RuneBrush]

1 hour ago, papary said:

I do wonder why they have moved to the 3 starter box method ( ok, i know its profits related) rather than keeping a big box around, the buy in between dominion/the biggest of the 3 new boxes isn't much different is it? 

The move was down to a few things.  First and foremost it allowed GW to compete at a board game level price.  This means the small and medium starter boxes are at a price point that could be asked for as a birthday/Christmas present without it breaking the bank.  They're equally at a level where somebody might buy it to see what it's all about.

The top end box is intended for somebody who's more committed about getting into the hobby, it contains everything you need to start your addiction in gaming - models, dice, battle mat and scenery.

Dominion/Indomitus were intended for existing gamers to get into the new edition of the game, limited run, huge savings, rulebook, brand new models and no dice, scenery tokens etc.  It's a quick and easy way to give us new models to add to an army (or start a new one).

[Overread]

1 hour ago, Chikout said:

But popular items go out of stock before gw can make more. The Soulblight battletome is out of stock right now. As far as I'm aware Soul Wars was never that popular. 

It's obviously impossible to know, but I'd be very curious to learn how many runs of the Soul Wars box GW did.  Warcry and the 8th edition Kill team weren't marketed as limited but GW didn't do a second run of either of those products. 

Yes things can go out of stock due to higher demand than GW anticipates or is able to order for. However Soulblight Battletime will come back into stock because GW will order more. Soul Wars might never have gone out of stock, but I suspect GW did do several print runs. They were just better able to order before they ran out. 

 

As for the side games I suspect that those boxed sets sold out because they were experiments for GW and they didn't plan to long term support them because they didn't know how well they'd sell. You see the same with a few other side games, however they do sometimes get new boxed a year or so later when GW has a handle on the new market; on how well it grows and can then order and create boxes that are designed to last medium to long term. 

 

 

In the end its complex and sometimes things do go wrong. Don't forget new orders of models can be done fast by GW, but boxes, card, books and other material is all overseas and that takes months to produce and ship by container (longer now with container shortages and such). 

[GrimDork]

I've already commented my thoughts on the dominion box earlier in this thread.

On a slightly related topic, I am surprised the ltd edition core book didn't sell out yet. The description says it's limited to 2,000 copies and it's still available from GW (UK site anyway). Though it is way overpriced (even for a ltd ed) at more than 3 times the price of the regular core book.

[Clan's Cynic]

20 minutes ago, GrimDork said:

I've already commented my thoughts on the dominion box earlier in this thread.

On a slightly related topic, I am surprised the ltd edition core book didn't sell out yet. The description says it's limited to 2,000 copies and it's still available from GW (UK site anyway). Though it is way overpriced (even for a ltd ed) at more than 3 times the price of the regular core book.

Even the 40k LE corebooks usually take a while to shift. 8th's was around for a good few months and had to be pushed alongside a bunch of the Black Library LEs to finally go (oh how times change, eh?) I don't remember how long 9th's LE was around, but I don't think it was too difficult to grab a copy if you were there at a reasonable time and those sales were probably inflated by people not getting Indomitus and wanting something exclusive for about the same price (since the MTO wouldn't be announced for another day).

2 hours ago, Chikout said:

But popular items go out of stock before gw can make more. The Soulblight battletome is out of stock right now. As far as I'm aware Soul Wars was never that popular. 

It's obviously impossible to know, but I'd be very curious to learn how many runs of the Soul Wars box GW did.  Warcry and the 8th edition Kill team weren't marketed as limited but GW didn't do a second run of either of those products. 

To be fair I never remember Dark Imperium going out of stock either and we know that sold like hotcakes over it's run.

[Enoby]

37 minutes ago, GrimDork said:

On a slightly related topic, I am surprised the ltd edition core book didn't sell out yet. The description says it's limited to 2,000 copies and it's still available from GW (UK site anyway). Though it is way overpriced (even for a ltd ed) at more than 3 times the price of the regular core book.

I think the price is a big factor in this. It's a lovely looking book but is far too highly priced for what it is. Only some of the LE battletomes go out of stock quickly and they're a more 'reasonable' £50, so it's a tough sell for a £125 book.

[Overread]

Honestly considering "GW Limited Edition" is often a ribbon bookmark and a different cover the price they charge is obscene even at the £50 codex level". £125 for the limited edition book is just purely nuts and only targeting super keen/dedicated collectors and almost no other part of the market. 

GW does really good printing in general, but yeah their collectors are just overpriced. I far prefer how they do WD - same price (actually a touch cheaper) and subscribe to get the special covers. 

Even Tyranids - where I've every codex (barring 2nd ed that I've still yet to pick up) even hwen I've not been playing much if at all, I've still not got a single collectors. 

[RuneBrush]

1 hour ago, Overread said:

Even Tyranids - where I've every codex (barring 2nd ed that I've still yet to pick up) even hwen I've not been playing much if at all, I've still not got a single collectors. 

Must be honest I've every Space Wolves Codex and pretty much all the collectors edition's from when they came out.  The original collectors eds were amazing - heavy duty box with cards, tokens and all sorts in there, the later versions have been a lot less impressive.

[sorokyl]

7 hours ago, Naem said:

How do we actually know, that Dominion sales were low? Do we have any number? Because you can't assume that just from the fact that there are still boxes available. We don't know how much they made, maybe they just hugely increased the number to account for the demand and overdid it a little. 

Yes, we have some numbers... The terms and conditions on the webstore have:

"6. There are 33,050 AoS Decorative Boxes to be given away under this promotion."

So, we know that GW has sold less than 33,050 copies on their webstore to date.  

Now, how many were shipped to retailers, and how many were shipped to stores? I don't know. 

[the Fel-hand]

10 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

I think popular is a bit of a subjective term.  By popular do we mean the number of people who own a Stormcast army (in some shape or form), or do we mean the number of people who actively play a Stormcast army?

Stormcast are a good army to start off with.  They can have a fairly straightforward playstyle, the miniatures are easy to assemble and enjoyable to paint, plus they're the poster boys, so we know they're going to get solid support throughout each version of the rules.  As you say they're available in plentiful supply to, having been included in all 3 versions of the boxed game and within the Mortal Realms magazines.

For me I feel Stormcast don't inspire the passion that other forces do.  I know many greenskin generals who are borderline fanatical about their armies, yet can't think of ever encountering this within Stormcast.

I wanted to quote this post because I think RuneBrush makes some great points but I wanted to expand on one of them. Stormcast are a great army to start off with, this is both the strength and weakness of the line. They have access to a little bit of everything, but they don't have the hooks that other armies have. 

This puts them in a really awkward spot because they have a ton of "Filler". I can't put enough emphasis on that point, because quite frankly there has been a ridiculous amount of churn for range. It is a direct result of having an army that has to many units that just fulfill the same role. Hopefully the new subfractions add some depth and purpose to a lot of the older units like the various chapters of space marines do in 40k. 

I really think this is necessary for the range because without those hooks stormcast are just a "starter army". People will avoid them, because the game is too expensive to commit to a force that isn't interesting. 

[Overread]

6 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

Must be honest I've every Space Wolves Codex and pretty much all the collectors edition's from when they came out.  The original collectors eds were amazing - heavy duty box with cards, tokens and all sorts in there, the later versions have been a lot less impressive.

Yeah if the collectors edition came with cards and tokens and such then the price would be worth it. But just on its own ,yeah its something where I feel that GW has really dropped the ball on providing value for money even within their own pricing structure. 

 

I can accept codex being double what they used to be because in going from £12 to £25 they've more than doubled in length, gone hardback and gone full colour. And that doubling isn't just more models its also masses of lore. Even the 3rd edition Tyranid Codex hardly has more than a few pages of lore, yet now has tens of pages of it! 

[Fairbanks]

Yea, I got nothing but speculation here.

I could really see the Cursed City debacle outraging a lot of the new casual fans who just joined, and were hung out to dry. On the one hand, I think it's one of the worst decisions they made as a company. On the other, I think they had actually made enough Indomitus boxes in the first place, didn't realize it until after GW stores sent their product back, and supply chain has pretty much told them to never do Made to Order again.

I used to think the belief that there were scalpers buying everything for 40K was just some internet boogeyman, but considering how Beast Snaggas went, maybe they do exist. Or GW made a depressingly tiny amount of product. If it's the latter, that's a shame.

There's an online belief that people buy one army and stick with only one army. But I think a majority of sales GW sees are from these multi-boxes, because there's a collection of people who want to own every army, and those people buy these boxes because it's the only discount you can receive (would be nice if I can buy them from anywhere but direct, because I'd kill for an additional 15% off).

Will also bring up that this set of Stormcast (while nice) strike too close to being a redesign of the original Stormcast (and the Sacrosanct), so I can just use them as a proxy of the new stuff.

Goobertown's latest video reviewing Kruelboyz may point out why no one likes the other half; It's missing the goofy/insane greenskin lore. They're too angry. Dunno, I like them.

[Chikout]

News of Age of Sigmar's demise may have been somewhat premature. 

[NinthMusketeer]

On 7/17/2021 at 10:43 AM, Bosskelot said:

GW sales reps have been incredibly pushy with indie retailers ever since Indomitus apparently. Really trying to make them order Indomitus levels of stock for every single box release, regardless of the game or the local scene.

At my local, he'd had the gw rep trying to justify 100+ boxes of Dominion because he'd sold 125 Indomitus boxes. The rep just didn't understand that despite AOS's growth, it's nowhere near 40k popularity in the slightest, especially locally.

He ended up ordering 30 only half of which have actually been sold with the rest now sitting on the shelf collecting dust.

Man I'm envious, my FLGS only gets a tiny fraction of the GW product it's trying to order. The first shipment of (15) Dominion boxes didn't even make it to noon on Sunday.

[sorokyl]

Dominion still trying to find a floor at least here in the US. On ebay it's down to $135 and not selling quickly at that price(12 were listed a few days ago, only a few sold). 
My FLGS has them scattered all over the store, maybe 20 copies. 
As someone who enjoys finding deals on ebay and occasionally splitting up lots to fund my hobby, I can't even justify $135. I fee llike it will take years for this glut to dry up if ever. 
 

[NinthMusketeer]

On a quick count I saw 16 Dominion sold on ebay in the past week prices generally in the $130-160 range, 27 Octarius in the $160-170 range. Obviously there are a lot of dissimilar traits between the two but if Dominion was really doing bad I'd expect a much, much bigger margin between them.

Dominion also has self competition from the starters offering the same minis, and more importantly both of the armies in Dominion are getting new battletomes imminently. When those his sales of the box set are going to get a pretty big surge.

Ultimately I still feel we just don't have the evidence to call out Dominion as a poor seller. It feels like GW actually prepared with enough stock ahead of time (like customers have been asking) and black knights (unwilling to consider that maybe GW adequately addressed a problem) have concluded that because GW can't have actually solved the problem the only logical answer is that they still understocked on Dominion as well but must have fantastically undersold.

Internet logic. *shrug*

[Nizrah]

I think fact that we still don't know when first batttletomes for 3ed will dropout very negativly effected sales of Dominion. Especially in Kruelboiz case because they are literally unplayble. Who is gonna buy a box with unplayable army?