AoS 3 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[Obeisance]

Wow, you guys have a pretty pessimistic view of DoK.

I was under the impression that the army was going to be pretty sweet on V3.

[KrispyXIV]

10 minutes ago, Obeisance said:

Wow, you guys have a pretty pessimistic view of DoK.

I was under the impression that the army was going to be pretty sweet on V3.

Yeah, the majority of what I've heard indicates Daughters are expected to be very strong in 3e. 

They lost very little to the edition shift other than cost increases, have a fantastic unit for unleash hell, and have a monster that does work AND doesn't give up points. 

They may not have a lot of variance in list building, but low powered is not something I've heard numerous folks suggest elsewhere. 

Edited July 6, 2021 by KrispyXIV

[Chumphammer]

Dok are great in AoS3.0

I think we are a Solid A

I'm gonna win lvo2022 with dok

Edited July 7, 2021 by Chumphammer

[Obeisance]

4 hours ago, Chumphammer said:

Dok are great in AoS3.0

I think we are a Solid A

I'm gonna win lvo2022 with dok

What you taking, out of curiosity?

[Ragest]

I started playing dok two weeks ago, the first matched i've played were complete stomps (vs fyreslayers, slaneesh and seraphon) but when i found a list that i was confortable with i won seraphon, fyreslayers, slaneesh, lumineth, fec, khorne and idk with ease. 
They are ridiculous strong, Solid A, closer than S (ogors, gargants and seraphon) than the rest of armies.

[Sapca]

I believe DoK will be good enough in AoS3.

Maybe not for tabling opponent, but for objective play... I definitely see them doing even better than in AoS2.

1) Morathi / SQ are beasts that can be chucked into frontline and almost can't be dislodged from objectives. They could lock shooters to have no choice of targets negating them (remember, teleporting/retreat-charge...) for long enough. They are really unique in AoS.

2) SoS can pilein 6" which can go around dangerous Unleash Hell. SQ/Morathi doesn't care about Unleash either.

3) Medusas look underpriced and 2 should handle instances where opponent has 30-40 of something.

4) Teleport is a thing. We have Mirror Dance, Khailebron(2 generals!), ShadowStalkers

5) Khinerai are still nasty tech, drop and move on objective. With thinner armies... they should be more annoying even on smaller board.

6) Medusas have 2 unbinds. Morathi 2. We're looking at 5-7 unbinds. And you really can't hide from them (remember, teleports).

7) 3 Temples as far as I see it (apart from snakes) have potential, which is more than in past. HagNarr Avatar combo, Khailebron teleports, KeltNar retreat-charge/mwbounce/extra 95 point khinerai drop.

 

After almost any core build you imagine at 2k, you generally have ~150-250 points floating for something.

Drakespawn Knights (allies) are cheap, form long lines and can be interesting block option with their easy 2+ save. Could work wonders along with shooty snakes. (plan to test them, have 10 of them which is likely overkill as allies).

Shadow Warriors (allies) are still cheap and can reach those opponents shooters without being shot at first. 10 bodies strong and in many cases likely better than Khinerai now. Extremely hard to negate, especially worth considering with new points 120 vs 95 (I'm building 20 of them with DoK heads... cough).

Alopex from Idoneth preventing pilein could be good also (didn't really go deep into Idoneth but this one stuck out) it moves 12 and has 18" range on net. That teleport hero + group of thralls? could also work (better) now, need to check that.

 

Will have to play and see but I see us grabbing objectives from under noses / holding objectives with Morathi+SQ even vs directly stronger armies and generating victories that way.

[Chumphammer]

11 hours ago, Obeisance said:

What you taking, out of curiosity?

No idea yet lol. I have something I wanna test at 2 local 50 player events in Sept and Oct and see how it goes

A lot depends on the LVO pack 

[Fred1245]

6 hours ago, Sapca said:

I believe DoK will be good enough in AoS3.

Maybe not for tabling opponent, but for objective play... I definitely see them doing even better than in AoS2.

1) Morathi / SQ are beasts that can be chucked into frontline and almost can't be dislodged from objectives. They could lock shooters to have no choice of targets negating them (remember, teleporting/retreat-charge...) for long enough. They are really unique in AoS.

2) SoS can pilein 6" which can go around dangerous Unleash Hell. SQ/Morathi doesn't care about Unleash either.

3) Medusas look underpriced and 2 should handle instances where opponent has 30-40 of something.

4) Teleport is a thing. We have Mirror Dance, Khailebron(2 generals!), ShadowStalkers

5) Khinerai are still nasty tech, drop and move on objective. With thinner armies... they should be more annoying even on smaller board.

6) Medusas have 2 unbinds. Morathi 2. We're looking at 5-7 unbinds. And you really can't hide from them (remember, teleports).

7) 3 Temples as far as I see it (apart from snakes) have potential, which is more than in past. HagNarr Avatar combo, Khailebron teleports, KeltNar retreat-charge/mwbounce/extra 95 point khinerai drop.

 

After almost any core build you imagine at 2k, you generally have ~150-250 points floating for something.

Drakespawn Knights (allies) are cheap, form long lines and can be interesting block option with their easy 2+ save. Could work wonders along with shooty snakes. (plan to test them, have 10 of them which is likely overkill as allies).

Shadow Warriors (allies) are still cheap and can reach those opponents shooters without being shot at first. 10 bodies strong and in many cases likely better than Khinerai now. Extremely hard to negate, especially worth considering with new points 120 vs 95 (I'm building 20 of them with DoK heads... cough).

Alopex from Idoneth preventing pilein could be good also (didn't really go deep into Idoneth but this one stuck out) it moves 12 and has 18" range on net. That teleport hero + group of thralls? could also work (better) now, need to check that.

 

Will have to play and see but I see us grabbing objectives from under noses / holding objectives with Morathi+SQ even vs directly stronger armies and generating victories that way.

1. Morathi is still by far the best unit in the army, but at Ap-1 she's not going to kill anything and with Kroak, Tzeentch, and Teclis alive and well her spellcasting is heavily going to be heavily neutered in most games.

She's still irreplaceable for what she does but only because she doesn't die and she gets hero actions+Roar. 

2. SoS have a 6+ save and no battleshock protection for 115 points. Your opponent doesn't need to unleash hell them because A) they probably died turn 1 and B) they're only slightly better than most shooting units in melee anyway. If you manage to get a chaff unit of SoS close enough that they can just pile in to something that would want to unleash hell, that's a massive failure on your opponent's part. Also, preliminary games suggest that thanks to armor stacking, anything without decent rend or mortal wound output will be essentially toothless. Bad news considering no one was taking Aelves before the new edition.

3. Medusa's are still very middle of the pack Wizards and will likely not be around long in games against even a single competent shooting unit. They're a better choice than they've ever been but they're far from underpriced (unleash hell gimmick notwithstanding.)

4. Fair enough, we can steal objectives very easily, at the cost of being more fragile and less killy. This may well be a worthwhile trade in most games.

5. The problem with Khinerai is that with points going up they take up a much higher percentage of available list resources than they used to. In order to take Khinerai you'll absolutely be giving up something significant. Again, this might be worthwhile in order to play objectives even better, but you'll feel it more than you ever have.

6. Wasteful overkill against non-magical armies, completely paltry against magical armies. Unbuffed unbinds aren't going to stop anything that relies on their spells and having 7 denies against armies that DON'T rely on their spells means you'll have 5 more than you can use in most games. Nice against endless spells but that's where most of the value is.

7. Avatars of Khaine wouldn't exactly be a premiere unit if they just...worked and retreat and charge is dubious in an army with units as fragile as DoK. Especially considering just retreating is what we'll be doing most often with the army pivoting to an almost exclusive objective control bent. Khellebron is likely our only real competitive choice.

This is an interesting way of pointing out that every viable DoK build is completely locked in to the same minimum 1400pts(1655 if you want a Cauldron) and that once we've got the mandatory units, other factions unbuffed units lacking allegiance abilities are likely better than what we have available. Especially galling considering our anemic allies chart.

We can still win games off of perfect objective control but it's a crying shame that we've been reduced to the point where Morathi and Blood Stalkers kill off 500ish points of high priority threats while the rest of the army kites around playing keep away instead of actually killing anything.

[Sapca]

8 hours ago, Fred1245 said:

This is an interesting way of pointing out that every viable DoK build is completely locked in to the same minimum 1400pts(1655 if you want a Cauldron) and that once we've got the mandatory units, other factions unbuffed units lacking allegiance abilities are likely better than what we have available

Fred you must be the most DoK passionate negative person on this forum. This is a compliment

We do have low range of models (for now) and lots of overlap. With Morathi being what she is... yes our builds are "dull" and thus predictable. Enemies will learn faster vs that and we'll suffer for it.  We need more models, simple. Just include future Malerion's range into DoK and rename entire thing into "Empire of Khaine".   Untill then, we teleport and make enemy make mistakes

Everything is in bikini right now so we can really feel that -1 rend on shooting units this was true in aos2 and will continue to be so. We lack a natural 3+/4+ unit (just Avatar*) as faction was designed around blood-shield on cauldron and with saves stacking.... we need updates to warscrolls (builds with bucklers have +1 natural save) and cauldron should go to 4+ natural for start.

There will always be something you can do with allies you can't with your faction. Unless you're SCE with 8x the range of models of other factions And even there I used Sorceress+Shards for +2 casting for a long time (or Scourgerunners for chaff/area denial, Warlocks for MW output(funilly, warlocks were few times better in SCE than in DoK for me).

Drakespawn are now likely one of best price-performance, if not the best anvil/roadblock now you can get now in the game with new coherency rules, mystic and totaldeffense. And to think they were absolute garbage 2 years ago at 170 points. )

 

[Chumphammer]

17 hours ago, Fred1245 said:

1. Morathi is still by far the best unit in the army, but at Ap-1 she's not going to kill anything and with Kroak, Tzeentch, and Teclis alive and well her spellcasting is heavily going to be heavily neutered in most games.

She's still irreplaceable for what she does but only because she doesn't die and she gets hero actions+Roar. 

2. SoS have a 6+ save and no battleshock protection for 115 points. Your opponent doesn't need to unleash hell them because A) they probably died turn 1 and B) they're only slightly better than most shooting units in melee anyway. If you manage to get a chaff unit of SoS close enough that they can just pile in to something that would want to unleash hell, that's a massive failure on your opponent's part. Also, preliminary games suggest that thanks to armor stacking, anything without decent rend or mortal wound output will be essentially toothless. Bad news considering no one was taking Aelves before the new edition.

3. Medusa's are still very middle of the pack Wizards and will likely not be around long in games against even a single competent shooting unit. They're a better choice than they've ever been but they're far from underpriced (unleash hell gimmick notwithstanding.)

4. Fair enough, we can steal objectives very easily, at the cost of being more fragile and less killy. This may well be a worthwhile trade in most games.

5. The problem with Khinerai is that with points going up they take up a much higher percentage of available list resources than they used to. In order to take Khinerai you'll absolutely be giving up something significant. Again, this might be worthwhile in order to play objectives even better, but you'll feel it more than you ever have.

6. Wasteful overkill against non-magical armies, completely paltry against magical armies. Unbuffed unbinds aren't going to stop anything that relies on their spells and having 7 denies against armies that DON'T rely on their spells means you'll have 5 more than you can use in most games. Nice against endless spells but that's where most of the value is.

7. Avatars of Khaine wouldn't exactly be a premiere unit if they just...worked and retreat and charge is dubious in an army with units as fragile as DoK. Especially considering just retreating is what we'll be doing most often with the army pivoting to an almost exclusive objective control bent. Khellebron is likely our only real competitive choice.

This is an interesting way of pointing out that every viable DoK build is completely locked in to the same minimum 1400pts(1655 if you want a Cauldron) and that once we've got the mandatory units, other factions unbuffed units lacking allegiance abilities are likely better than what we have available. Especially galling considering our anemic allies chart.

We can still win games off of perfect objective control but it's a crying shame that we've been reduced to the point where Morathi and Blood Stalkers kill off 500ish points of high priority threats while the rest of the army kites around playing keep away instead of actually killing anything.

You have a very negative view my dude. Not sure who you are tournament wise or whats your meta, but yeah. Very negative. 

1: I dont use Morathi-Khaine, yet I still win 90% of my games. And VS a good player she does die as they know how to handle her. Morathi is solid, dont get me wrong, but in the right army list and set up.

2: SOS are 135pts for 10. not 115. None of the army has BS protetion atm unless witch brew. They have a 5+ with cauldron, which you would take with them, and then 4+ if buckler in combat, which you should as its better than dagger, and 3+ (only good vs rend due to cap) 20 of them can still work, especially if you take subfaction where you can retreat and charge, or retreat and pile in 6. If enemy are also shooitng them off then they are not shooting more important stuff. 

3: Medusa are amazing for 120pts. 1 cast, 2 dispels, 6 Wounds, a good number of attacks and the shooting attack is amazing vs hordes. I have COS players looking at adding her due to her worth. I mean seriously, relook at her scroll and see the work she can do even if you throw her into screens/small units. And again, if someones shooting my single medusa then they are not shooting my shrine/cauldron/snakes

4: Depends on what you use to take them but khainite shadowstalkers are great obj grabbers and even soft support characters due to champions attacks. Even dropping them in front of a big unit to block a charge for a turn is worth 120pts. Mirror dancing 2 Medusa on the flanks of a horde of Sentinals is amazing value. Its how you use the teleports not just we have them for obj. 

5: I wont comment on Khinari as I dont use them cause I think shadowstalkers are better

6:  I have 6 dispels and yes, without +1 to dispel its not perfect, but medusa are worth it even vs non magic armies and even vs magic ones, you can still roll well. I rolled an 11 vs a +3 to cast more more warp power and it changed the game. Its a dice game at the end of the day even with those +1's

7: Avatars are solid and great for 135pts. Yes, you need to activate them, but thats ok if you work that into your list.
My solo avatar has done amazing work and only died once so far in 6 games of 3.0. I dont run him off solo yolo, he usually supports my snakes or heros as he can sit nicely in a unit and use his reach to work if you pile him in/charge right. 

You are dreaming if you think Khelibron is our only competitive choice.  If what you are using is still the same playstyle to AOS2.0 then you need to change your mindset. 3.0 isnt the same game by far, and I actually think DOK should be concentrating on Objs and battle plans other than just killing the enemy 



 

[Ben]

What I took from that lot is that you must try Lifetakers!  

[Ben]

I’d love to play with Medusa’s but my opponents are all hung up on monster lists 😭

last week it was SoB. 6 Thurdertusks. Archaon and 2 Thirsters. 
 

I don’t get much mileage from the medusa. 

Avatars are interesting. Has to be Hag Narr though. 

[Maogrim]

Don't know if this is the right place for asking, but does anyone happen to know why the Khelt Nar Witches are dark-skinned? I don't think GW ever did much with Aelves in terms of ethnic diversity. Was it just a stylistic decision to let their color scheme stand out more?

I think they look awesome and am just wondering if this was ever adressed lore-wise. 

Edited July 9, 2021 by Maogrim

[Chumphammer]

8 hours ago, Ben said:

I’d love to play with Medusa’s but my opponents are all hung up on monster lists 😭

last week it was SoB. 6 Thurdertusks. Archaon and 2 Thirsters. 
 

I don’t get much mileage from the medusa. 

Avatars are interesting. Has to be Hag Narr though. 

check out my list in the hag nar section

[Ggom]

15 hours ago, Maogrim said:

Don't know if this is the right place for asking, but does anyone happen to know why the Khelt Nar Witches are dark-skinned? I don't think GW ever did much with Aelves in terms of ethnic diversity. Was it just a stylistic decision to let their color scheme stand out more?

I think they look awesome and am just wondering if this was ever adressed lore-wise. 

I don't believe this is explicitly discussed in the battletome. Dark skin would be fun to paint!

But also, it's ambiguous enough that you probably don't need to do khelt nar to do dark skin! I think it will look really nice with gold or silver nmm, and with painted lights on the skin, which could be highly reflective as well. Personally I wouldn't pair it with red fabric, I would go blue especially if u do a reddish dark skin.

Edited July 10, 2021 by Ggom

[Maogrim]

7 hours ago, Ggom said:

I don't believe this is explicitly discussed in the battletome. Dark skin would be fun to paint!

But also, it's ambiguous enough that you probably don't need to do khelt nar to do dark skin! I think it will look really nice with gold or silver nmm, and with painted lights on the skin, which could be highly reflective as well. Personally I wouldn't pair it with red fabric, I would go blue especially if u do a reddish dark skin.

Hey, thanks for answering! For a moment I thought none would bother. I do have the Battletome and did read it, but since I just got into the game a few months ago and haven't read any of the Black Library stuff I figured there might be more stuff about them out there. Still think it's peculiar since, as I've said, ethnically diverse Aelves haven't been done by GW before, as far as I know.

Those are some beautiful Daughters you have there, but they look more like Khailebron to me. Which is the other Sect of Khaine I really like.

Personally, for Khelt Nar, I'd stick to the studio scheme, I think. Though green instead of red would look amazing as well!

[Ggom]

3 hours ago, Maogrim said:

Hey, thanks for answering! For a moment I thought none would bother. I do have the Battletome and did read it, but since I just got into the game a few months ago and haven't read any of the Black Library stuff I figured there might be more stuff about them out there. Still think it's peculiar since, as I've said, ethnically diverse Aelves haven't been done by GW before, as far as I know.

Those are some beautiful Daughters you have there, but they look more like Khailebron to me. Which is the other Sect of Khaine I really like.

Personally, for Khelt Nar, I'd stick to the studio scheme, I think. Though green instead of red would look amazing as well!

Make it happen captain! One challenge I see is making the features visible at a distance. With light skin, you can make shadows stand out easily at a distance. With dark skin, it will be difficult. Maybe make the bright points go up to a light skin color?

Thanks for the compliment! I personally didn't follow any sect's scheme and just pick colors I like. Gives me freedom to pick a sexy when I get to play one day... 😄

[Frowny]

12 hours ago, Ggom said:

Make it happen captain! One challenge I see is making the features visible at a distance. With light skin, you can make shadows stand out easily at a distance. With dark skin, it will be difficult. Maybe make the bright points go up to a light skin color?

This exactly. I don't think it will be that difficult though. I would just emphasize the highlights with a middle tone so you still get the desired overall tone but can see whatever details. Almost like an edge highlight.

[Ggom]

44 minutes ago, Frowny said:

This exactly. I don't think it will be that difficult though. I would just emphasize the highlights with a middle tone so you still get the desired overall tone but can see whatever details. Almost like an edge highlight.

Smoothness is pretty important for skin though methinks. This would make for an excellent tutorial, since I don't think dark skin tone to a high tabletop standard is covered often (if at all.) 

Strong airbrush-foo to do specular highlights would be incredibly useful. Get on it Maogrim!

Update - this is a really nice theory tutorial from the excellent NJM:

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by Ggom

[Chumphammer]

Has anyone been using Bloodwrack Vyper in 3.0? 

[Maogrim]

3 hours ago, Ggom said:

Smoothness is pretty important for skin though methinks. This would make for an excellent tutorial, since I don't think dark skin tone to a high tabletop standard is covered often (if at all.) 

Strong airbrush-foo to do specular highlights would be incredibly useful. Get on it Maogrim!

Update - this is a really nice theory tutorial from the excellent NJM:

 

Ha, thank you for cheering me on, but right now I've got a Lumineth army which is my main project, and I haven't quite decided whether Daughters or Kruleboyz will be second. I have bought the Daughters half of Shadow and Pain, and also the Boyz half of Dominion, so we'll see. 

Maybe I'll do Khelt Nar for Warcry, but I'm a little averse to buying a box of Witches right now, and as far as I know there are no single Aelf heros on sale for Daughters to try out a scheme.

@Chumphammer The Bloodwrack Vyper was discussed between pages 1 and 2, I think.

[Chumphammer]

9 hours ago, Maogrim said:

 

@Chumphammer The Bloodwrack Vyper was discussed between pages 1 and 2, I think.

Yeah, but that was 2 weeks ago when it was more thoughts. Just wondering if anyone's got some game use out of it recently and how it's done with activation every hero phase

[Maogrim]

19 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

Yeah, but that was 2 weeks ago when it was more thoughts. Just wondering if anyone's got some game use out of it recently and how it's done with activation every hero phase

That's valid, of course. Just thought you might not have caught the prior conversation.

[Chumphammer]

36 minutes ago, Maogrim said:

That's valid, of course. Just thought you might not have caught the prior conversation.

oh no, i started that one lol. Actually going to try the vyper out today vs STD

[InSaint]

Had a couple of games using DoK with different Temples against the following armies - SoB, Soulblight, LRL, Slannesh, Skaven & STD. Playing a few more games in the coming weekends against several other factions.

Here are my findings;

1. Smaller board makes it really easy for us to dive into close combat on T1
2. Smaller board gives Blood Stalkers have amazing threat projection
3. Smaller board makes our wholly within abilities easier to proc
4. New Unleash Hell can really hurt our bikini warriors, make sure to use Morathi or chaff to charge first
5. New All Out Attack further amplifies our damage potential for insane damage output
6. New All Out Defense is helpful but isn't as potent as armies with natural 3+ saves
7. New limit on net +1 save modifier makes Melusai more durable than Witches
8. The Shadow Queen is a Monster, combo her to Titanic Dual + Finest Hour other Monsters to death
9. You can cast Metamorphosis to transform your Heros into a Monster
10. If The Shadow Queen is weaken, use the Ghur Feral Roar to make her top tier again 
11. Try to get the Inspired Triumph (+1 wound roll), you can combo All Out Attack + Inspired for a super reliable hard hitting hammer
12. Try to position your priests near Mystic (+1 prayer roll) terrain effect
13. Morathi-Khaine is also a General, in case your actual General dies you still get the 1 CP every turn
14. Pray hard Morathi-Khaine don't roll double 1s snake eyes on her first spell
15. Morathi-Khaine's Worship Through Bloodshed ability happens during the Hero Phase, opponent cannot use All Out Defense and neither can you use All Out Attack
16. Heart of Fury is pretty sweet - if your opponent faction has no Priests, they have absolutely no way of countering it! Once summoned, it only goes away on roll of 6s (probably pending FAQ)
17. Pillars of Belief is probably the easiest Grand Strategy if you are bringing a Cauldron - since it usually is the last to enter any fights
18. All our Heros count as 2 models - Shadow Queen is a Monster and count as 5 when contesting objectives
19. Zainthar Kai extra Artefect allows you to forgo the Warlord or Command Entourage battalion
20. Khelt Nar fall back can no longer run - cannot synergize with Melusai Ironscale 2D6 run anymore

 

So far, my favorite combo is using The Shadow Queen and 10 Blood Sisters for an alpha strike. Give the Blood Sisters Mindrazor, Catechism of Murder, 2D6 run + charge, activate all out attack and inspired. Charge in with The Shadow Queen first and then the Blood Sister for 41 attacks 2+ (exploding 6s)/2+/-2/2 dmg.

Edited July 11, 2021 by InSaint