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AoS 3 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion


Chumphammer

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On 7/7/2021 at 7:54 AM, Sapca said:3) Medusas look underpriced and 2 should handle instances where opponent has 30-40 of something.

Drakespawn Knights (allies) are cheap, form long lines and can be interesting block option with their easy 2+ save. Could work wonders along with shooty snakes. (plan to test them, have 10 of them which is likely overkill as allies).

Shadow Warriors (allies) are still cheap and can reach those opponents shooters without being shot at first. 10 bodies strong and in many cases likely better than Khinerai now. Extremely hard to negate, especially worth considering with new points 120 vs 95 (I'm building 20 of them with DoK heads... cough).

Alopex from Idoneth preventing pilein could be good also (didn't really go deep into Idoneth ;) but this one stuck out) it moves 12 and has 18" range on net. That teleport hero + group of thralls? could also work (better) now, need to check that.

I’m pretty excited about using Dark Elf allies; Drakespawn Knights and Kharybdis will definitely make a showing.

Would Idoneth Alopex be able to teleport? I thought they’d miss out because they would lack the DoK keyword. 
 

You mention the “teleport hero”; Tenebreal Shard? Hopefully you have someone else in mind, I’ve found him to be incredibly disappointing, since he fails his teleport 50% of the time. I wish they’d improve that somehow. 
 

PS: Post your converted Shadow Warriors when you get a chance, I love DE conversions. 

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On 7/9/2021 at 4:36 AM, Maogrim said:

Don't know if this is the right place for asking, but does anyone happen to know why the Khelt Nar Witches are dark-skinned? I don't think GW ever did much with Aelves in terms of ethnic diversity. Was it just a stylistic decision to let their color scheme stand out more?

I think they look awesome and am just wondering if this was ever adressed lore-wise. 

I love painting dark skin, but found that over my schemes tend to be dark overall and they don’t have enough contrast to be readable on the battlefield. I’m repainted them light skin again. 
 

But, yes, GW seems to be making a conscious effort to be more inclusive. I love it.   Please try other skin tones, it really makes an army unique. 

9B70CF89-4728-4040-8A99-9DC5623AD005.jpeg

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4 hours ago, Ravenborn said:

I’m pretty excited about using Dark Elf allies; Drakespawn Knights and Kharybdis will definitely make a showing.

Would Idoneth Alopex be able to teleport? I thought they’d miss out because they would lack the DoK keyword. 
 

You mention the “teleport hero”; Tenebreal Shard? Hopefully you have someone else in mind, I’ve found him to be incredibly disappointing, since he fails his teleport 50% of the time. I wish they’d improve that somehow. 
 

PS: Post your converted Shadow Warriors when you get a chance, I love DE conversions. 

Not the best picture but these are my shadow warriors 

Screenshot_20210712-063625_Facebook.jpg

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6 hours ago, Ravenborn said:

You mention the “teleport hero”; Tenebreal Shard? Hopefully you have someone else in mind, I’ve found him to be incredibly disappointing, since he fails his teleport 50% of the time. I wish they’d improve that somehow. 

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads//ENG_Isharann_Soulscryer.pdf

 

Isharann Soulscryer. Priest, 140 points.

Instead of setting up this unit on the battlefeld, you can place it to one side and say that it is set up travelling the ethersea. Up to 2 (Idoneth Deepkin) units can join this model in this way....
 

Add up to 260 points with it and you have allies filled (at 2k). This could be 10 or 20 thralls that actually have good damage profile (3/3+/3+/-1/1 vs 1 wound models // 2/3+/3+/-1/2 vs 4 wound). Or 3x Mossar Guard that likely hits the hardest. But not sure if you want to teleport Mossar - they're fast enough on own.

I'm more inclined into using Shadow Warriors, but you know. This does threaten objectives on charge and can force shooty armies into seriously sub-optimal target selection. Priest itself has more value in AoS3 now with extra prayers available to them all and other priest specific stuff - as he has/had super low combat value (those fish of his do eat things at 18" range heh). No idea, would need to hear it from some ID player that used this.

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2 hours ago, Sapca said:

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads//ENG_Isharann_Soulscryer.pdf

 

Isharann Soulscryer. Priest, 140 points.

Instead of setting up this unit on the battlefeld, you can place it to one side and say that it is set up travelling the ethersea. Up to 2 (Idoneth Deepkin) units can join this model in this way....
 

Add up to 260 points with it and you have allies filled (at 2k). This could be 10 or 20 thralls that actually have good damage profile (3/3+/3+/-1/1 vs 1 wound models // 2/3+/3+/-1/2 vs 4 wound). Or 3x Mossar Guard that likely hits the hardest. But not sure if you want to teleport Mossar - they're fast enough on own.

I'm more inclined into using Shadow Warriors, but you know. This does threaten objectives on charge and can force shooty armies into seriously sub-optimal target selection. Priest itself has more value in AoS3 now with extra prayers available to them all and other priest specific stuff - as he has/had super low combat value (those fish of his do eat things at 18" range heh). No idea, would need to hear it from some ID player that used this.

Priests have less value because they have half the prayers they used to and invocations can be unbound.

Again, it's not a great sign that the DoK discussion is mostly revolving around how much better idoneth and CoS units are then ours.

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4 hours ago, Fred1245 said:

Priests have less value because they have half the prayers they used to and invocations can be unbound.

Again, it's not a great sign that the DoK discussion is mostly revolving around how much better idoneth and CoS units are then ours.

Why don't you just go play another army than be a Eeyore around here?

Or you know, Adapt?

Edited by Chumphammer
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2 hours ago, Fred1245 said:

Priests have less value because they have half the prayers they used to and invocations can be unbound.

Again, it's not a great sign that the DoK discussion is mostly revolving around how much better idoneth and CoS units are then ours.

Yes, yes. We got shafted a bit on Priest side. Just like Khorne did where they could bloodboil you for d6 mortals for days...

But then... Our Avatar has quite unique +1 to rolls now (not sure if any other faction has easy access to it). So our prayers just got way more reliable. It has cost tho, 135. But then Avatar was never weak option anyway.

And all prayers are down to 3+ answer (2+ for us, cough) which just ups the power of them. Pendant is still there for one priest to chant 2x if you want. And circlet is still there for reroll. AND you can actually afford extra artifacts. It was kinda hard in AoS2 (had to take battalion, and there were 2 that were ok) and then you picked ShadowStone for mindrazor ;) I definitely had games with 3-4 priests in game and only thing running was Witchbrew... as chanting was failing.

In HagNarr Avatar train you almost can't fail that sacrament (need to roll 2x 1) now.

Even with loss of extra prayer... I actually believe we came up ahead.

--

Heart of Furry can't get unbound. As it only lasts during combat phase, then it's removed. Check new warscroll.

You roll a dice on summon, 1-5 reduces damage by 1. 6 also adds +1 attack in 12" range.

The Bad: It doesn't last trough enemy turn in any case now and doesn't protect on counter attack.

The Good: +1 attacks potential in area.

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4 minutes ago, Sapca said:

 

Heart of Furry can't get unbound. As it only lasts during combat phase, then it's removed. Check new warscroll.

You roll a dice on summon, 1-5 reduces damage by 1. 6 also adds +1 attack in 12" range.

The Bad: It doesn't last trough enemy turn in any case now and doesn't protect on counter attack.

The Good: +1 attacks potential in area.

Roll at the start of each combat phase

Only leaves on a 6. on a 1-5 it stays. It can be banished by a priest, but they need to roll over the casting value, so need a 5+, as well as losing their prayer cast next cast

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So this is something I am thinking about taking. What are some thoughts on tweaking it.

 

Morathi Khaine 660

Ironscale Medusa 115

Bloodwrack 120

10 Stalkers 340

10 Blood Sisters 280

20 Sisters of Slaughter 270

5 Heartrenders 95

Bloodwrack Viper 95

Total 1975 points 

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7 hours ago, KhorgusCool said:

So this is something I am thinking about taking. What are some thoughts on tweaking it.

 

Morathi Khaine 660

Ironscale Medusa 115

Bloodwrack 120

10 Stalkers 340

10 Blood Sisters 280

20 Sisters of Slaughter 270

5 Heartrenders 95

Bloodwrack Viper 95

Total 1975 points 

What Sect are you planning to go with?

And I assume you want the Ironscale to make your Snakeladies Battleline. But wouldn't you also want a Hag Queen or Slaughterqueen to buff your Sisters of Slaughter?

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Honestly I am new to DOK. I have only played Khorne in AOS since AOS became a thing. I don’t know my way around the army well yet and haven’t played yet. I bought some unbuilt stuff for a good price and am finishing painting it up. Trying to figure out competitive ways to play in AOS 3 which I guess everyone else is too.

The iron scale is to make snakes battleline 

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I guess it's hard to give advice on competetive lists at the moment, since everybody still needs to figure out 3.0. That being said, there is still a lot of talk about Morathi and 15 Blood Stalkers, but as discussed 1 or 2 pages earlier this setup might be to expensive to be the way to go. I think it will be dependent on the meta if 15 Blood Stalkers will be good.

Looking at your list, I think you are doing fine for a first shot. A few notes:

  1. At the moment you are not fielding a priest. This means you are missing out on our great prayers as well as the chance to unbind invocations. I would remove the Melusai Ironscale for a Hag Queen. Your list also includes a Bloodwrack Medusa so Blood Stalkers and Blood Sisters are battleline anyways. This means all the Ironscale will do is allowing your Blood Sisters to run and charge, which is an awesome ability, but not worth missing out on prayers in my opinion.
  2. You could think about replacing your Khinerai Heartrenders with Khainite Shadowstalkers. Both fulfill a similar role on the battlefield, but I feel like Shadowstalkers are more versatile while also being more resilient.
  3. If you are in a meta where it's hard to get the Bloodwrack Viper off you could also replace it with another Hag Queen. With the changes suggested above this would bring you to exactly 2000 points. Another possibility would be to keep the Heartrenders and replace the Viper with Shadowstalkers or upping your Sisters of Slaugher to 30 girls.

Your list, even with the suggested changes, could be played as Battle Regiment + Warlord/Command Entourage depending on wether you value lower drops or 1 CP more, which is a good start I guess.

 

EDIT: Nevermind. It is a Bloodwrack Medusa not a Bloodwrack Shrine so Warlord/Command Entourage cant be used 😔

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So, not sure if this is the best place to ask this but here I go!

I kinda want to make a serpentine avatar of khaine. How would y’all suggest I do the kitbash? The only way I can think of is sticking his body on the Shadow Queen’s tail. Can anyone think of any other ways to pull this off? I know her base is bigger than his but they look about the same general size, I think with a bit of work it can be fit together and secured onto a properly sized base. I’d like to stick to GW product mostly, in case I ever find myself in an opportunity to go to a tourney with it. 
 

or should I just hold out hope that they’ll release a new Avatar of Morathi-Khaine type model?

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2 hours ago, Fyrm said:

So, not sure if this is the best place to ask this but here I go!

I kinda want to make a serpentine avatar of khaine. How would y’all suggest I do the kitbash? The only way I can think of is sticking his body on the Shadow Queen’s tail. Can anyone think of any other ways to pull this off? I know her base is bigger than his but they look about the same general size, I think with a bit of work it can be fit together and secured onto a properly sized base. I’d like to stick to GW product mostly, in case I ever find myself in an opportunity to go to a tourney with it. 
 

or should I just hold out hope that they’ll release a new Avatar of Morathi-Khaine type model?

lol funny you mention this

I am about to try one with the upper half of an cauldron avatar (arms in different positions) with the Lower half of the shadowqueen. bits are on the way from a friend and will post how it goes

The base might be bigger, but the snake part goes up a pilar so could be made smaller with some green stuff for a tip

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Short BattleReport

Played first AoS3 game, decided on keeping it smaller-shorter and maybe have more than one.

DoK vs SlavestoDarkness - 1k - 3rd battleplan in new minibook (attacker/defender/vantage point).

DoK List
HagNarr, Pillars of Belief

Hag on Cauldron (arcane tome, steed & sacrament)
* does arcane tome enable taking lore/universal spell? usually abilities like that limited it to Arcane+Mystic. We both had it so we said fuckit and wait for FAQ.

Hag - Crimson Rejuvenation

Slaughter Queen (Ulfiri) - Heal

Avatar

2x 10 Witch Elves

1x 5 Warlocks

My plan was.... slam Cauldron+Avatar in as fast as possible, pray and heal them while rest deals with objectives....

---

StD
Chaos Lord on Karkadrak
Chaos Sorcerer Lord
1x 10
Chaos Warriors
2x 5
Chaos Knights
1x
Mindstealer Sphiranx
Flaming Skull


---
Turn 1.
StD Player gave me priority.

I picked "Take 2 objectives" strategy.
I deployed in weird way, had Avatar out of Cauldrons range for +1 prayer. But terrain didn't really allow it and I wanted strong(er) presence on my right side.
Failed Sacrament prayer (rolled 1), laughed about it as I replaced Iron Circled with Tome just before battle.
Failed Steed of Shadows (unbound). Mystic shielded the cauldron with warlocks.
Animated Avatar on foot manually. Got witchbrew up on 1 unit of WE's. Healed cauldron with Hag...
And just went forward. 10 WE's on right objective along with avatar and SQ. 10 WE's in middle right next to cauldron and Hag bit behind. Cauldron in middle was blocking nice chunk of area towards mid objective with help of terrain.
Took left objective with long congo line of warlocks (first one on objective, last one almost near middle just behind cauldron).
And.... prepared myself to get charged. I kinda saw 1 unit of knights and chaos lord on cauldron, but it didn't happen.

5 easy points

Opponent did his things. Got unbound.
He moved Sphiranx and Warriors toward rights (avatar, sq, 10 witches).
Moved chaos lord and unit of knights near mid-right. Sorcerer behind that.
Ran second unit of knights on my weak objective(1 warlock) and took it over.
Called reinforcements of table which managed 9" charge in my right (witchbrewed) WE's on objective. Killed 1... and got sliced back with 6/9 of them dealing 8 damage, reducing his unit to 2. Inspired them to lock my WE's there at least.

3 points (1 for objective, 2 for completing strategy - take over specific objective)
-----
Turn 2.
I win the roll. And this was really bad for StD player as I had everything in move-charge ranges.

I fail sacrament (roll 1), loads of lols around this. But my avatars are animated anyway.
SQ dance of deaths, Hag heals that 1 damage, 2 witchbrews fail, cauldron rolls 3 on casting metamorphosis (arcane tome*), warlocks get their doombolt unbound.

2 avatars shoot at Warriors. Doing nothing vs total defense.
Avatar on foot+SQ charge Sphiranx but don't pull warriors.
Cauldron slams into chaos lord (2mw) and manages to tag one knight into combat (which we didn't see immediately, redeploy would be likely excellent here)
Middle WE's run and charge left knights. Warlocks go help and move-easy charge into same knights to pincer them.

I go first with warlocks (not waniting to loose 1m to keep bonus, and rest of things look like they can take it) which with all out attack kills 2 knights in total defense.
Chaos lord flails about and gets nearly all attacks trough. I had no idea he has so many. But.... total defense cauldron and my above average rolls save nearly everything resulting in 3 damage on cauldron.
WE's akwardly pile on knights and kill 2 (3 dmg*)
Sphiranx ticlkes SQ with 1 wound
I attack with Cauldron (I didn't notice I tagged one knight) and delete chaos lord just barely. Avatars sword and reroll 1 hit doing work. SQ deletes Sphiranx basically on her own (7w) with avatar swinging in. And for two reinforcements go somewhere between surrounded by WEs

3 objective points, 2 strategy (take over objective), 1 kill monster (11 total)

StD player is looking at 5 knights locked with cauldron.

1 Knight in middle of warlocks and WE group

10 Warriors a spitting distance to avatar/SQ

He runs warriors around towards Middle / Right (has nice way into middle objective with just Hag there, or bit harder on Right with 9 WEs still standing).
Retreats knights in position for T3 charge
Retreats single knight to prevent WE's pile around to objective and calls for 2nd reinforcements (golems) that make 9' charge onto left objective with warlocks.
Golems wound a warlock, warlocks flail about and remove ~2 models.

1 objective, 0 strategies (4 points total)

Turn3
We both roll 6, but StD has priority. I remove middle objective.
He charges 5 knights into left WE's and deletes them (I rolled 2 on redeploy, partially blocking his following charge so he could not get fully on objective) he scores his strategy (kill Battleline)
Warriors go for WE's and manage 10" charge and fail to kill any thing with 3 attackers. Get 2 warriros killed back failing to take objective.
Warlocks try allout offense and really deal some decend damage, but one to few and objective stays on StD side.

(1 objective, 2 strategy - 7 total)
-
I slam full health Cauldron (heroic recovery) into 5 knight unit, but with pile in it reaches objectve. (I succeded sacrament, failed casting steed...)
Avatar+SQ into warriors
Remaining warlocks just pile in nicer. Hag runs and gets in range of left objective also.

Not sure what gets to be most effective. 3 damage avatar slams on knights, SQ spinning for 9! damage on warriors (1 out of 2 combats she has with dance) but I easily wipe everything except lone Chaos Sorcerer still in the back.

2 objectives, 2 strategy(kill BL) (15 total)
---
We end the game.

Takeaways:

General:

Strategies are major victory condition now and greatly influence what you do. Really liking it.

Command Point usage made game bit reactive and not slow. We even had cases where we burned 1-2 CP as there was nothing to use it on. In 2K game I'm sure it would be otherwise around, I would really like 1 extra there. Going second having +1 CP is nice balancing act (not enough to offset getting charged with any kind of charge bonuses, but nice).

T3 Objective removal will be major where available.

Coherency is small issue for WE's, but not massive. I was always able to fit 6-7/10 WE's into combat even from awkward  charge-pilein. Opponent had major issues with those 10 warriors on 32 bases. Fit like 5-6 max on second pilein...

DoK:

Didn't get single doombolt off :)

Didn't get single spell with Arcane Tome off :) - again question. Does arcane tome give you also ability to pick Lore / cast Metamorphosis (a Monster Cauldron... khm).?
I didn't need Crimson Rejuvenation or Heal. Heroic recovery would handle it. In 1k at least. SQ and Hag were looking for things to do...

Iron Circlet stays in in HagNarr :D
Hag Narr feels better than ever before. Having those reroll 1s earlier is massive. WE's with allout offense get to be 3x 2+/3+/-/1, reroll 1 hit on Turn2! It's insane. No to mention avatar or even surprisingly warlocks with 2/3/3/-1/1.

Curse could work with WE's in a massively good way against armies with better saves. The amount of hit 6's I had...

Getting into faces of units that have charge bonuses is massive. Opponent could move better here, but I guess it's hard vs DoK with the speed we have. Just slam whatever you have vs -2 rend chargers if possible.

Cauldron, while at 0 wounds in end.... I think it should crumble with some effort even in 1K. For 2K games I'm thinking Blessing of Khaine will really be needed, that bloodshield is must and even on smaller board I was out of range few times.

DoK is still paper thin faction. But I didn't miss bucklers much (usually play SoS/wbucklers) as total defense+bloodshield cover rend1 same as Bucklers+Shield did previously. Still, will likely fall back to bucklers for unit that doesn't go with cauldron.

I'm also just convinced even more that units with massive attack numbers and no rend are actually better now when +1 save is max no matter on source. When you drop 10-12 dice into opponents hand and say... no rend, damage1 and source is 6-7 witch elfs worth 60 points and watch things get removed. This happened 3 times in this game. Draichi Ganeth might actually be good. Mindrazor... maybe if we get +2 caster someday.

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On 7/15/2021 at 9:20 PM, Fyrm said:

So, not sure if this is the best place to ask this but here I go!

I kinda want to make a serpentine avatar of khaine. How would y’all suggest I do the kitbash? The only way I can think of is sticking his body on the Shadow Queen’s tail. Can anyone think of any other ways to pull this off? I know her base is bigger than his but they look about the same general size, I think with a bit of work it can be fit together and secured onto a properly sized base. I’d like to stick to GW product mostly, in case I ever find myself in an opportunity to go to a tourney with it. 
 

or should I just hold out hope that they’ll release a new Avatar of Morathi-Khaine type model?

I wouldn't count on them releasing a new Avatar model anytime soon and by soon I mean something akin to a decade. 

The Cauldron/Bloodwrack set includes such vital pieces to all Daughters players (virtually all the heroines except Morathi and the Ironscale) that everyone buys at least one. And the scuplts still hold up very well. So there is neither need nor incentive for GW to do a new one.

But I love your idea. According to the tome Morathi is remaking Khaine statues in her own image, so using parts of her and/or the Shadow Queen would make sense.

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22 hours ago, Maogrim said:

I wouldn't count on them releasing a new Avatar model anytime soon and by soon I mean something akin to a decade. 

The Cauldron/Bloodwrack set includes such vital pieces to all Daughters players (virtually all the heroines except Morathi and the Ironscale) that everyone buys at least one. And the scuplts still hold up very well. So there is neither need nor incentive for GW to do a new one.

Well, the thought there wouldn’t be a new model for the Avatar of Khaine. But a whole new unit Avatar of Morathi-Khaine or even Avatar of Morathi? Maybe have it be like a caster version of the current one, gives a spell to animate and a bonus to casters around it [I’m imagining it will have to be on tail]. maybe instead of +1Ld, it can give some other minor defensive buff [maybe 6s to save reflect a mortal? That could be neat to spread across the army]? Idk, just think it’d be neat and fitting with that lore you mentioned. Maybe as part of souping us with Malarion’s elves if they end up doing that, to give the dedicated DoK players some new toys as well?

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The references to Morathi replacing icons to Khaine with her own likeness does leave a little wriggle room for a new Morathi-Avatar kit at some point, and certainly I'd love to see that!  But if I had to guess I'd say anything like that is more likely to take the form of faction terrain than anything, I don't think we're likely to see a full second DoK expansion range anytime soon.

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3 hours ago, Lucentia said:

The references to Morathi replacing icons to Khaine with her own likeness does leave a little wriggle room for a new Morathi-Avatar kit at some point, and certainly I'd love to see that!  But if I had to guess I'd say anything like that is more likely to take the form of faction terrain than anything, I don't think we're likely to see a full second DoK expansion range anytime soon.

Temple of Morathi-Khaine. - faction terrain, hollowed out Shadow Queen embracing altar supporting up to 42mm round model.

Adds prayer reroll 1 and spell cast +1 in 6-9"

Enables garison for 1 hero giving it +3-6" on prayer or spell range

Has Bloodshield (doesn't stack with cauldron) and only 6". Garisoned wizard 9", priest 12", morathi 18" range.

Garrisoned hero (priest) can attack with Animated Spear (3" range) instead own weapons.

Garrisoned wizard can attack with Animated Gaze (18") instead own weapons.

Garrisoned Morathi can move (slither?) the building 3-4" (no run, no teleports, no redeployments, no buffs) and attack with both Spear and Gaze instead own profile (cough, becomes Gotrek)
 

Can be turned to rubble with monsters (auch). Ahhh. Yea.

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2 hours ago, Sapca said:

Temple of Morathi-Khaine. - faction terrain, hollowed out Shadow Queen embracing altar supporting up to 42mm round model.

Adds prayer reroll 1 and spell cast +1 in 6-9"

Enables garison for 1 hero giving it +3-6" on prayer or spell range

Has Bloodshield (doesn't stack with cauldron) and only 6". Garisoned wizard 9", priest 12", morathi 18" range.

Garrisoned hero (priest) can attack with Animated Spear (3" range) instead own weapons.

Garrisoned wizard can attack with Animated Gaze (18") instead own weapons.

Garrisoned Morathi can move (slither?) the building 3-4" (no run, no teleports, no redeployments, no buffs) and attack with both Spear and Gaze instead own profile (cough, becomes Gotrek)
 

Can be turned to rubble with monsters (auch). Ahhh. Yea.

Oh, I love this idea!!! Giving us a Morathi mech! 
 

I think the Wizard attack shouldn’t be a ranged attack though, if you want the Morathi pilot to be analogous to Gotrek. Part of the reason that movement restriction is significant is because he’s stuck in melee. I’d say give wizards/Morathi a tail swipe. More fitting, given that it’ll be a Medusa. Or a hag with a book, which would get their choice of either I suppose? This also fixes that problem, of using the Arcane Tome to turn a priest into a wizard would get both the shooting and the melee. 
 

but ya, I’d be fine with us getting a faction terrain for our giant snek statue. Unfortunately I doubt we’ll be seeing a book for a while, but GW has thrown a bunch of weird pacing choices recently so who knows!

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