AoS 3.0 Seraphon Discussion

[Boar]

11 hours ago, Tizianolol said:

-Guys about scar-vet on carno. Is better play him with spear or blade? As warscroll seems usless play him with blade bacuse you lose 1 damage more in charge, blade give no buffs, is there any faq?

 

- Another question : 4-8 engine ability can heal engine too? 

1. Spear is better as there was no FAQ on weapons. It is a bit strange, yes, maybe GW made mistake and later went oops.

2. Since Engine is within 12" of itself it heals too.

[AaronWilson]

How do you guys feel about the Seraphon changes? 

20 points for a salamander and 15 point increase on Solar Engine Bastiladons doesn't feel too impactful? May lose unit a of skinks from a list but feels like still in a very strong place, especially when Nagash / Archaon taking some hits. 

[Lord Krungharr]

I've been whooped several times by Seraphon, now I'm thinking about joining them!  Saw a deal on 3 oldazz metal Slann Mage Priests.  Can a legit deadly magic army be started with 3 of those?  My normal self would naturally go towards Thunder Lizard, but I have no other magic armies and I've heard Seraphon are formidable in that department; I'm assuming I'd have to get a Lord Kroak too?  Is it good to have a Skink on Magic Throne too besides just Slann?

Thanks for any ideas and list building suggestions 🦎

[Acid_Nine]

hope this isnt a thread necromancy...}

Is there any hope for a saurus heavy list?

 

[readercolin]

1 hour ago, Acid_Nine said:

hope this isnt a thread necromancy...}

Is there any hope for a saurus heavy list?

 

No.

Most saurus buffs are command abilities that happen in the combat phase.  To list them out:

Eternity Wardens give a unit +1 to hit with "Prime Guardian"
Oldbloods (foot or carnisaur) gives a unit +1 to hit with "Wrath of the Seraphon"
Scar Veterans (cold one or carnisaur) give exploding 6's with "Saurian Savagery"
Sunbloods give +1 to wound with "Scent of Weakness"

Finally, saurus get a 1 attack at 4+/3+ (and either -1 rend or 2" reach), and +1 attacks in units of 15+.  Guard get 2 attacks at 3+/3+/-1/1.  Knights get 2 attacks at either 3+/3+/-/1 or 4+/3+/-/1.

All of this together, and previously you could do "well" with saurus by stacking multiple +1 to hit, +1 to wound, and exploding 6's, though all of that was no-rend damage.  Come 3.0, and you can't stack +1 to hit multiple times, you have to choose either +1 to hit, +1 to wound, or exploding 6's, you can't have multiple instances, and save stacking means a lot of no-rend damage isn't particularly impactful.

Now, compare this to skinks.  Skinks can get +1 attacks from a skink chief as a command ability in the combat phase.  They get mortals on 6's to wound from the skink starpriest as a hero phase ability.  Skink Priests can use a CP for +1 to hit in the hero phase, as well as give a skink unit run + shoot/charge, and +1 to save.

So skinks can have more attacks, benefit more from CP's, and potentially deal mortal wounds (which negates their lack of rend).  Basically, I don't see any way that a saurus heavy list can perform without a new book because of how the buffs for them worked in 2.0, and now get in each other's way in 3.0.

If you want to run saurus casually, by all means, go for it.  A few saurus guard can be good in any list as bodyguards for your slaan.  But beyond that you likely won't see them competitively until their warscrolls get touched, or unless they lose so many points that you can just spam hundreds of them.

[Acid_Nine]

1 hour ago, readercolin said:

No.

-snip-

well, that kills my enthusiasm! not going to lie, saurus's are the main draw for me.

How about the leaders? is there a way to make it work for the leaders like the oldblood or scar vet on carnosaur?

[readercolin]

37 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

well, that kills my enthusiasm! not going to lie, saurus's are the main draw for me.

How about the leaders? is there a way to make it work for the leaders like the oldblood or scar vet on carnosaur?

The problem with Carnosaurs is rend, and swinginess.

The clawed forelimbs start at 2 attacks with a 3+/3+/-/2 profile.  This is... fine... but not really inspiring.  However, the kicker is the massive Jaws, which is 3 attacks at a 4+/3+/-1/* (starting at 5).  Sure, if everything goes through, the carnosaur is dealing 19 damage before any rider gets into this.

But then you look at the numbers, and you see that the carnosaur has an AVERAGE of 6.78 damage before saves.  Throw him at a 3+ save?  Average of 3 damage.  But lets take an old blood.  For 270 points you are getting an average of 11.78 damage before saves on a 12 wound monster with a 4+ save.  That same 3+ save is now taking 5.6 damage on average.  The scar vet is basically the same thing, but he's dishing out ~4 damage to that 3+ save, but at least you are only spending 215 points on him.

However, on the bright side, when it comes time to start buffing, you have all out attack, the old blood's command ability, a scar veterans command ability, a sunbloods command ability, AND an eternity wardens command ability, for 3 instances of +1 to hit, 1 of +1 to wound, and 1 of exploding 6's, so at least you'll be able to buff everythings attack profile (somehow).  Thunder lizard also gives you an extra bite attack, sacred asterisms can give 1 hero +1 attacks, and I'm sure that there's more that I'm missing as far as buff abilities.

Basically though, it boils down that the swinginess of their attack profile and their lack of rend puts them in a poor position in the current meta.  If the meta changes, and we move away from save stacking, this might change.  If your local meta is a lot of nurgle and just putting wounds on the board, carnosaurs might be able to do some work.  Etherial Nighthaunt takes off?  Rend -1 is equal to rend -5, so you are doing fine there.  Your meta is going to zombietown and everyone is bringing 120 zombies + some other stuff?  Sure, carnosaurs may have a place.  Heavy armor targets?  Ehh... leave your carnosaurs at home and bring something that can do mortal wounds.

Overall, if you are ok with the fact that they are likely underpowered, and you are playing casually, you can probably run a few carnosaurs.  Go all in on that thunder lizard list with 4 carnosaurs and 3 stegadons and some other stuff.  Will it be good?  Nope.  Will it be fun?  Yup.  Pull out your inner child and go "dinosaurs RAWR".

[Acid_Nine]

19 minutes ago, readercolin said:

The problem with Carnosaurs is rend, and swinginess.

The clawed forelimbs start at 2 attacks with a 3+/3+/-/2 profile.  This is... fine... but not really inspiring.  However, the kicker is the massive Jaws, which is 3 attacks at a 4+/3+/-1/* (starting at 5).  Sure, if everything goes through, the carnosaur is dealing 19 damage before any rider gets into this.

But then you look at the numbers, and you see that the carnosaur has an AVERAGE of 6.78 damage before saves.  Throw him at a 3+ save?  Average of 3 damage.  But lets take an old blood.  For 270 points you are getting an average of 11.78 damage before saves on a 12 wound monster with a 4+ save.  That same 3+ save is now taking 5.6 damage on average.  The scar vet is basically the same thing, but he's dishing out ~4 damage to that 3+ save, but at least you are only spending 215 points on him.

However, on the bright side, when it comes time to start buffing, you have all out attack, the old blood's command ability, a scar veterans command ability, a sunbloods command ability, AND an eternity wardens command ability, for 3 instances of +1 to hit, 1 of +1 to wound, and 1 of exploding 6's, so at least you'll be able to buff everythings attack profile (somehow).  Thunder lizard also gives you an extra bite attack, sacred asterisms can give 1 hero +1 attacks, and I'm sure that there's more that I'm missing as far as buff abilities.

Basically though, it boils down that the swinginess of their attack profile and their lack of rend puts them in a poor position in the current meta.  If the meta changes, and we move away from save stacking, this might change.  If your local meta is a lot of nurgle and just putting wounds on the board, carnosaurs might be able to do some work.  Etherial Nighthaunt takes off?  Rend -1 is equal to rend -5, so you are doing fine there.  Your meta is going to zombietown and everyone is bringing 120 zombies + some other stuff?  Sure, carnosaurs may have a place.  Heavy armor targets?  Ehh... leave your carnosaurs at home and bring something that can do mortal wounds.

Overall, if you are ok with the fact that they are likely underpowered, and you are playing casually, you can probably run a few carnosaurs.  Go all in on that thunder lizard list with 4 carnosaurs and 3 stegadons and some other stuff.  Will it be good?  Nope.  Will it be fun?  Yup.  Pull out your inner child and go "dinosaurs RAWR".

Yea, then a ladder league wouldn’t be the best place to try this out. It’s a real shame, because I am starting a Kings of War salamander army, so I was hoping to double dip with a big Saurus force since that’s most of the models I am bringing. I think I’ll stick with my idoneth for this kinda stuff then, cause eels pretty much do everything I want saurs to do anyways.

 

still, it’s a damn shame that skinks seem to be the eternal victors of lizardmen.

[Lord Krungharr]

Looking at 2 or 3 old cheap Slann Starmasters and a metal Lord Kroak.....is a Starborne floating magic space-frog heavy army viable?  Cuz it sure seems pretty darn cool!  Not really sure what else I would need in a Seraphon army starting with those pieces.  Do they still summon stuff these days?  

I also have the 2 different start collecting kits a guy might trade to me for random stuff I have.  That's got Terradons, Skinks, Bastiladon, then a Carnosaurus, Saurus Warriors and Knights I think.  Is that a full army there?

[Derek]

@Lord Krungharr so you’d need the new kroak,  he’s visibly taller than the older one and is on a bigger base,   Spell casting heavy starborne lists work but you run into the issue of running out of spells.  And starborne seraphon do summon but it’s not open to spamming like the old book.    I haven’t played 2 slaan and kroak before because it isn’t really necessary but I bet it’ll work to some degree.

 

 @Acid_Nine  saurus work,  let me preface this with they don’t do ****** all for damage,   They’re tarpits in thunderlizards.    The carnosaurs are to me like a skaven clanrat when they pop off and all the damage goes through it’s an amazing feeling, but most of the time they’re unimpressive.    I’m not sure what gw pictures when they look at saurus because they are very much outclassed by the skink portion of the battletome.   I own 120 saurus warriors and 30 saurus guard and 24 saurus knights trust me I want it to work but man oh man they just die and hit like a noodle definitely fun to just see the waves of dinosaurs on the table but not for a competitive event.   
 

I say play rule of cool and have fun,   Because it’s a great feeling seeing your not skink units  rush across the table with 3d6 charges and a mortal in addition on a 6 to wound with exploding 6’s,  will it work all the time? Nope but man when it does it looks cool as hell.  

[Lord Krungharr]

3 hours ago, Derek said:

@Lord Krungharr so you’d need the new kroak,  he’s visibly taller than the older one and is on a bigger base,   Spell casting heavy starborne lists work but you run into the issue of running out of spells.  And starborne seraphon do summon but it’s not open to spamming like the old book.    I haven’t played 2 slaan and kroak before because it isn’t really necessary but I bet it’ll work to some degree.

Running out of spells is not a problem that I've ever run into before!  That would be a reason to actually use some Endless Spells perhaps?  I have the Umbral Spell Portal and Emerald Lifeswarm.  Not sure what other ones are good these days....

 

[Derek]

I’d be careful with the endless spells depending on how popular that new thing from thondia will be.  But you honestly don’t need the spell portal.  A slaan/lord kroak can cast through the skink starpriest or skink starseer.  Now it’s getting you an extra 12 inches of distance between the slaan/kroak and the skink but sometimes that’s all you need.   Give it a shot and see how everything plays.  Seraphon is a lot of fun just be ready for the constant raving that seraphon is busted,  when their rules really haven’t changed since late 2nd edition and the bastiladon that everyone complains about was cheaper and way more abusive last edition. 
 

im by no means a all star player or somebody who can show you stats of tournament placing and all that but I do believe that it’s the players driving the lists not the units that take them to their 5-0 win rate.   I own 10k of seraphon and I think I’m a relatively good player in my local area but I struggle with understanding how the winning lists are winning and nobody has been able to explain it well enough that it’s crystal clear what is making the humble bastiladon so busted when nothing on its warscroll has changed for 2 years except the points 

[Lord Krungharr]

I can see now there are many many ways to play the Seraphon, which is fun!  Nice little combo teams to use too.  I was looking at the Ark of Sotek Bastiladon, and wow is that cheap compared to the Solar Jewel Blaster, but I see why.  But then with a Skink Priest (not the Starpriest) it could be doing quite a bit of MW at full health with 18 attacks from the snakes.  Worth some magnetization and experiments I think.  

Kroxigors guarding a Bastiladon would get +1 to hit from being near a SKINK unit.  Though I'll have little Skinks all over the place as I found 50 of the little old bow versions for really cheap.  Easily mounted with a lizard shield of green stuff I think.  They could do quite a few MW in a block of 30 and the Skink Priest ability right?  They'd be getting 60 Boltspitter shots? (even though mine will be Bow-spitter shots).  And a Starpriest can make the run and shoot.  Not bad at all.

I have a Realmshaper Engine on hold at my FLGS.  Taking some previous advice here for the LOS blocking and garrisoning ability.  Think I might have to make a Starseer Skink and an Oracle on Troglodon, just wish the latter had some more dino-worthy melee stats.

Comparing Dracothion's Tail to just plain Starborne, doesn't seem to be a major advantage to either one does there?  Starborne have the teleport per turn anyways, so would we really need the deepstriking?  The Godbeast Pendant is pretty good though.  Hmmm.  Slann are delicate aren't they.

[Derek]

So your kroxigors will only get the bonus to hit being near an actual skink unit,  aka the warscroll called skinks.   The ark of sotek bastiladon has been gaining traction in the competitive scene as a cheap 1+ save monster. Your skink priest is the one that gives out +1 to hit and the possibility of run and shoot and charge.   The starpriest gives units 6’s to wound are a mortal in addition,  you throw that with hand of glory and the skink priest +1 to hit command ability and the ability to run and shoot with skinks who would yes get 60 shots in a block of 30, hitting on 4’s wounding on 5’s rerolling 1’s and 6’s to wound are mortals in addition,  you put out a ****** ton of damage that way,  and dracothians tail’s deep strike ability has more use than you think once you see how you can manipulate it, with being able to drop almost your entire army all around the board depending on how you built your list,   I like thunderlizards with my 30 block of skinks and everything else because that -1 damage is worth it’s weight in gold but all the sub factions except koatls claw have a use.  Experiment and enjoy your army.  

[Boar]

6 hours ago, Derek said:

So your kroxigors will only get the bonus to hit being near an actual skink unit,  aka the warscroll called skinks

No, it is "any SKINK unit" on Krox ability so it absolutely works by keyword. And there is no "Skink" warscroll it is "Skinks" so it would not work like you describe even if it was not Keyword.

[Derek]

I’m pretty sure their intention was the skinks warscroll.  Just like in fangs of sotek where everyone thought it was everything with the skink keyword but it’s just the skinks/chameleon skinks warscroll.  But hey 

[Derek]

I am more than happy to be wrong,  I own 6 of them and they never see the table because they are over priced and have little interaction with the book because they lack any keywords beyond seraphon 

[Boar]

48 minutes ago, Derek said:

I’m pretty sure their intention was the skinks warscroll.  Just like in fangs of sotek where everyone thought it was everything with the skink keyword but it’s just the skinks/chameleon skinks warscroll.

Well it's quite clearly written in book that it's unit of skinks (chameleons are keworded tough) when it comes to Fangs of Sotek . Problem is with people skimming rules and not actually reading what is written. Of course me included many, many times. Ha!

[Derek]

100%,   But if I’m wrong cool.  Still wish kroxigor were worth a look.  In the modern mortal wound shooting meta they just don’t accomplish anything 

[Derek]

Anyone on here able to explain why suddenly the bastiladon is one of the most busted models in the game?   His profile hasn’t changed from when the book dropped in 2020 except for the fact that it suffers from rend now instead of being unrendable for the first 3 wounds.  Everyone in my play group keeps telling me seraphon are op but I look at match ups against dragons and nurgle fly spam and I don’t see a path to victory.  

[Lord Krungharr]

I've faced a few Bastiladons and they're tough and can do some major pain with shooting, but not sure why people think they're super OP.  I mean 1s still fail on their saves, make them roll enough and they bracket.  Can't wait to summon one!

Definitely will have to compare the Coalesced effects though, I agree that -1 to damage is super good.  That makes 2/3 of the megagargants hit half as hard.

[Derek]

Sure.  But everywhere I turn with content creators and locally.  Seraphon are the top army.  But nobody really says why.  Their book hasn’t really changed from second edition except kroak.  And not being able to use essentially an entire sub faction due to the changes in 3rd edition.  Like what makes them a top army,  they don’t do ranged mortals the way other armies do and they lack any real ward save except as coalesced and only within your territory.  I have fun with the army and all and I have won games but I can’t find the path to victory against armies like dragons and nurgle.  

[Lord Krungharr]

Picked up a group of 6 really really really old metal Kroxigors.  Love those old models!  Wondering about moonhammers (this group I got has 2).  At 4 attacks with the regular clubs, are Moonhammers even necessary?  I mean can they get too many more enemy models within 2" anyways?  I'm thinking probably just call everything normal clubs.

[Skreech Verminking]

6 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Picked up a group of 6 really really really old metal Kroxigors.  Love those old models!  Wondering about moonhammers (this group I got has 2).  At 4 attacks with the regular clubs, are Moonhammers even necessary?  I mean can they get too many more enemy models within 2" anyways?  I'm thinking probably just call everything normal clubs.

Currently I believe they aren’t very useful.

should hordes come back I could see the moonhammer being a great addition.

in a best case scenario that hammer will be swinging with about 10-15 attacks against 25mm base sized hordes of rats/ goblins and so on

[Lord Krungharr]

I think I've gathered enough models to start fielding Seraphon after having stayed in the Living City for a few tournaments.  Just have to base them properly but I think I'll want to make some custom Aztec/Mayan looking stony bases for my spaceFrogs and other lizardfolk.

I got a ziggurat; is it good to garrison that with a Slaan or Kroak, or better for an Astrolith Bearer to provide a bigger bubble of ward save?

I'm going for Dracothion's Tail to begin, and have a Bastiladon and EoTG as well.  Haven't glued the Solar Engine or Ark on there yet....the Ark just seems terrible, like really bad, even for cheaper points.  The extra VP for killing the Solar Engine seems like a fair trade, or is there some viability for the Ark of Sotek I'm missing?  Just checking.

I also have 4 old OLD metal Flesh Hounds that really look reptilian, so those will be my Salamanders.  Better to start them on the table or should I summon them with my massive quantities of summoning points that I'll be generating?