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AoS3 - The points discussion


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19 minutes ago, Dankboss said:

I've told my Slaanesh friend he can use the old points, since they were clearly already pointed for AoS 3.0. No point letting GW get away with everything. It's use old points or shelve them.

I honestly think baring some miraculous FAQ save next week or whenever they come out, the best option for slaanesh players is to shelve them until christmas at which point one would presume they get at least modestly salvaged.  If its your only army and you aren't competitive, yeah just using old points is probably best bet.

I bought like 2500pts (about 2000pts in any sane world) of slaanesh stuff when the new book came out just out of love for the models, found out rules sucked, still tried to push through, started building slickblades and gave up on the entire project after 4 because it was literally the most painful model building experience I've ever had and killed the last shred of enthusiasm I had left.  Unopened boxes sitting on my shelf ever since waiting to be Ebayed, now I won't be able to give them away haha.

Edited by tripchimeras
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2 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

Someone seriously sat down and decided that Sentinels should only be +10 pts, while Saurus warriors should be +15 pts and Dragon Ogors should be +20 pts, I don't even know how we can measure anything else based on this information as coming from a reasonable place.

Either those FAQs will contain a LOT of information, or this is all completely bonkers land. Looking at the 40k FAQs and our latest FAQs I think holding out hope that these release day FAQs will be anything but a bare minimum, is just a setup for disappointment.

Saurus aren't bad. Every Seraphon subfaction is good when you compare it to other things. Idk buffed up saurus warriors with heal/returning models etc. could be really good in AoS 3.0 

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18 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Semi tempted to go back to the days of AoS 0 and write our own points :P

could you just rewrite the battletome and warscrolls instead? Thanks haha

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29 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Semi tempted to go back to the days of AoS 0 and write our own points :P

Simpler fix that I genuinely think works and is easy to execute: just introduce a handicap. Bad army gets a few more points to play with to level the field. Doesn't fix the underlying problem but saves you a wackton of work and maybe you can enjoy a game with a severe imbalance between the armies.

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I hope they change the warscroll so shields set a new characteristic.

 

Just a thought though since savage orruks would then basically be the kruleboyz Battleline, did gw ever put that much thought in army balance? Savage orruks would objectively be better since they can get more attacks, bravery and a charge bonus. So the main difference would be allegiance and buffs from synergies. Did GW ever put a 50pt price tag on something like that?

 

I'm curious about this so I reposted it from the bonesplitterz thread.

Edited by AlmGandix3
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This is very interesting. Courtesy of the BoC WhatsApp group via twitter.20210618_223856.jpg.3f896150103105fcfa12f6940df0edf6.jpg

Sons of Behemat definitely seem to be the big winners. Most of the top armies got hit pretty hard. KO escaped but the triumphs change is a pretty big nerf for them. Alongside Slaanesh, Khorne, Sylvaneth and  Beasts of Chaos stand out as getting bigger increases than they needed. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Battlesmith went down 15pts despite being auto-include in every Fyreslayer list. Considering 'Totems' received a buff in the core rules, this one's really bizarre. All I can think is GW have too many of the models gathering dust in the warehouse

As fyreslayer i can tell you that battlesmith have went down because we have many options to get +1 save(and now with the ca more even) but with the new cap to only +1 save the battlesmith have lost MANY of his use.

Why spend points in a model that need be a range and alive to give +1 save if i can only use every turn the new ca and give to my best unit this same +1 save with no counterplay .

 

Btw im mad with new points,not for the increases,but for how the best units of every tome got better but the worst units got weaker.

 

Ko: ironclad got almost 0% increase

Tzenth:horrors buffer 5points!!!!!

Lumineths:sentinels only a minor 10 points(as 7%)

Slaves:archaon only a 5% nerf

 

These are only some examples but then we have as some bad units got the oposite:

Gyrobombers:15 increase(20%)

Darkshards:15 increase(15% ,more than brothers elfs sentinels because darkshards ard better than sentinels......)

Slanesh:many examples but the best are slangors that are veeeery bad but got bigger increase than all the examples in good units

Sylvaneths the worst army of the game,durthu-40 points nerfs,13% or so when archaon who is the best behemot of the game got only 5%.....

And every tome have the same situation,bad units got big increases but good unit god small increases,DONT MAKE SENSE

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2 hours ago, UnholyRevenant said:

A lot of the time Sentinels were used as battleine, and they are conditionally unlocked by needing another unit first which also went up in cost. As did a lot of the other units including support pieces, yes they can just take 20 as a standard unit if they want, but that's 300 for 20, or 450 if battleline. I honestly dont think they will be that much of a problem anymore. If my opponent wants to dump that many points into them and plan a strategy around unleash hell, then go for it.

 

To be honest i think they only got more effective by comparison.  All out defence is way less usefull against them.  And Characters seem more importent then ever. So a unit that can just kill support herro's in a single turn or a combat hero in 2 turns. Seems verry much worth it.  They don't care about your armour and they don't care about if you are hiding.  

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A few winners and losers, but I think when people remember that most things went up, its relatively balanced. Yes, Slaanesh were hit harder, but I think it will all even out after people see the new meta. Likely a lot more monsters and less infantry, and armies that can do that well will be stronger. 

I can already see some interesting combinations. For example, knights of the empty throne seem interesting, as does legion of chaos ascendant. Belakor going down will be taken everywhere, both as strong model himself, but also to shut down the monsters people are now taking more of. Although maybe with more MSU he will be worse? Interesting to see.

Funnily, I see the ones complaining the most are the ones who started with the strongest army. I for example, won't miss endless eel spam out of IDK. So thats nice. 

Biggest winners I can see-

KO- still lots of guns, only expected points increases, never really wanted big units anyway. 

Skaven- While its true, they lose quite a lot in terms of coherency and reinforcement points, hiding weapons teams in clanrats is BONKERS good. I think this just hasn't been appreciated yet. This isn't really a 3rd ed thing though, more because of broken realms kragnos

Kragnos- Down points, useable in a lot of lists, benefiting from both monster and hero abilities and importantly, counting for 5 on objectives all make him way more interesting.

Legion of the First Prince- More command points help, and a list based around monsters will do especially well. Also, belakor

Slaves to Darkness- A reasonable number of cheap monster-heroes coupled with expected point changes. Built in rerolls go much futher when you have easy access to +1 save and +1 to hit. Also Belakor

Seraphon- I think we'll just see a lot of cheap pawn type units to take objectives like terradons or 10 man skinks, followed up by a lot of dinosaurs. Slaan are still great. Lists will look different, but no less deadly. 

Soulblight gravelords- Lots of monster-heroes and lots of 3+ saves. Blood knights are amazing now that they can definitely retreat and charge. They already felt strong with AOS2 points, but with everyone else going up 10% they are even better positioned. Lists will focus on blood knights, vengori lords. Also manfred remains brokenly good, and is even better with free built in healing. You need to do 4 wounds to him per turn OUTSIDE OF COMBAT (since he can always flee for free) to even hurt him at all, with easy access to a 2+ save and counting for 5 on objectives. Will be stupid. 

Cities of Sigmar- lots of reasonable shooting, monsters actually got slightly cheaper (although they were mostly bad before). I'm sure there is something here although I'm not clever enough to figure out on my own. 

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14 minutes ago, Chikout said:

This is very interesting. Courtesy of the BoC WhatsApp group via twitter.20210618_223856.jpg.3f896150103105fcfa12f6940df0edf6.jpg

Sons of Behemat definitely seem to be the big winners. Most of the top armies got hit pretty hard. KO escaped but the triumphs change is a pretty big nerf for them. Alongside Slaanesh, Khorne, Sylvaneth and  Beasts of Chaos stand out as getting bigger increases than they needed. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Imagine raising post of Hedonites as much as DoK, Disciples, Seraphon. Must have missed the memo about them being a top tier army. 

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3 minutes ago, Doko said:

 

Slaves:archaon only a 5% nerf

This needs to be taken into context, as this is clearly a knee ****** reaction to Archaons cost in the context of the current rules. Archaon in a StD army was never a problem already, he was never used like that in any competitive environment.

The way Archaon was used was mostly with Khorne and Tzeentch and stacking a lot of buffs and commands.

You need to take everything into account to know why especially the Khorne build has been completely deleted basically. The major advantage there was buff stacking, Bloodthirster giving 6" pilein command and Reapers of vengeance giving fight twice. 

Now 6" pile in and fight twice is removed right there, as they are both used in the combat phase, so only 1 can be used. Warshrines were used to cast warscroll prayers AND khorne prayers while also casting judgements, now they will only be able to cast 1 prayer in total, so a major nerf. 

I would expect to see more changes having impact, but the Khorne build is basically gone so that leaves Tzeentch, however Tzeentch had a lot of the largest point increases all in all, so it will be an even tighter fit than it already is. Arhcaon is also now a part of the S2D faction, so he will be included in the new coalition rules, which are somewhat poorly defined in what we have seen in the GHB21 book, which might get clarified further in the FAQ.

TLDR: Archaon in khorne no longer competitive at all. Archaon in S2D was never competitive to begin with. Tzeentch overall got many pts increases and might get coalition based changes.

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Idoneth Deepkin Analysis Part 2

Leviadon - 380 points up 40

The leviadon is another unit that saw almost no play following the initial faction launch. However, a new warscroll plus the addition of mount traits dramatically increased the viability of the turtle.

The leviadon brings excellent shooting, moderate combat damage, a very high save and a large plus 1 to save aura. Unfortunately, both the save and damage deteriorate quite quickly once the leviadon starts taking wounds.

Although many would see an area of affect save bonus as an incredible buff, arguably this is of limited impact in an Idoneth force.

The forgotten nightmares battle trait makes Idoneth highly resistant to shooting, high tide ensures combat dominance without reply and movement enables the Idoneth to control the battlefield without needing to survive enemy damage. 

Secondly, taking a single monster unit over more eels further weakens the ability to play objectives in a low model count army.

For that reason the Leviadon has not seen widespread play at the top tables.

Regarding the point increases it seems likely the new monster bonus effects have played a role in pushing up costs. It remains to be seen how useful these abilities will prove. 

The viability of monster units may also depend on how many anti monster units see play in the meta.For instance, both Kragnos and Yndrasta both have very powerful anti monster abilities.

Overall the Leviadon is likely to be a less attractive pick.

Verdict - Unjustified increase

 

Eidolon of the Sea - 355 points  up 25

Both Eidolons saw changes as part of Morathi, sadly this has had little impact on the eidolon of the sea.

This unit suffers from several compounding issues, some of which are specific to Idoneth but others reflective of the wider meta. 

Firstly, the Idoneth spell lore is largely lacking in either potent buffs or damage. Steed of Tides offers certain utility, but is often redundant given the high movement of most Idoneth units.

Secondly, although the Eidolon has a potent spell for reducing enemy hit the range is so low that this is rarely useful.

Thirdly, the presence of three extremely strong magic armies in the current meta means the risk of having your magic shutdown is high.

Lastly, this Eidolon offers little utility or damage with a lackluster bravery buff and low damage when compared to the storm Eidolon.

The Eidolon of the Sea was an unattractive choice previously and despite the addition of universal spells is likely to remain so. This point increase is perhaps the most egregious of the Idoneth range.

Verdict - Unjustified Increase

 

Ishlaen Heroes - Increases of 5 to 10 points each

The small Ishlaen heroes all saw minor point increases which are unlikely to impact the meta.

The Soulrender is focused on supporting Namarti units. As both type of Nemarti see little to no play in the meta the Soulrender has equally seen no play. No point change was likely to impact this.

Lotann is a named character designed to buff Nemarti units. Unfortunately for him not only are Nemarti extremely poor units, but his buffs are also obtained from other sources within the battletome. This has made Lotann redundant since the release of the army. No point cost could ever make Lotann viable.

The Tidecaster is a basic wizard similar to other foot wizards. Her casting does little to nothing for the army, but she has previously seen some play with a so called "reverse tide" build focused on a turn 2 high tide. Again this point increase is unlikely to change anything.

Finally the Soulscryer. This is a key hero in most Idoneth lists enabling both deepstrike and a significant bonus to charges. The power of these buffs are such that the Soulscryer will continue to see play in many lists. It is possible that the smaller board size combined with point increases may encourage some players to do away with the Soulscryer. 

Verdict - Unjustified Increases 

 

Nemarti Reavers - 115 points down 5

Reavers are an archer unit that provide neither high damage nor long range. Their shooting, even at the best profile, provides less reliable damage than that from an Allopex harpoon. Plus they cannot provide anywhere near the same level of combat support.

If shooting is required then either an Allopex unit or allied units from elsewhere are likely to be more desirable.

This unit has seen little play and this very minor change is unlikely to impact that.

Verdict - Irrelevant Decrease 

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31 minutes ago, Chikout said:

This is very interesting. Courtesy of the BoC WhatsApp group via twitter.

Thanks for sharing, and I do think its very interesting.  But it DEFINITELY does not tell the story in terms of relative power shifts.  As others have mentioned earlier the specific units effected, and overall context of what people will be taking matters much more.  Like DoK is a great example where you see a 20% increase in point cost and at first glance it looks like they got crushed.  Then you look at practically what their new lists are going to look like and its like "oh, this is very nearly the same".  They didn't get hit very hard at all in reality I think.  But then Tzeench DID actually get hit hard.  My point is just, its all very interesting, but we definitely shouldn't place a large amount of importance on these top line stats.

 

PS. not saying you specifically think that.  Just feel its important that this stuff gets put into context.  So my response isn't meant to be directly directed at you haha.

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Those change tables are ireelevant since none cares about x metal hero noone knows that exist going down in points. Like seraphons, havent endless spells, hage like 10+ small heros since is a fsntasy army with lot of heros, that most if them are totally useless and of course didnt got nerfed so much.

 

But if u see the real numbers every playable seraphon unit got nerfed by 15-30% with 2 or 3 exceptions that only got around 10%. So in general i would say they were nerfed by 15-20% in general

 

Same with idoneth, noone cares about bald dudes and little heros, they were useless and keep being useless, only playable units are turtle,shark,eels. So in reality idk got nerfed by around 15%.

 

Im not sure about others armys but im sure not everyone got hit hard on his playable units. Like slanesh criying about slangors when they were allready useless so who cares if they are nerfed 5 or 300%. Only playable units points are important

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3 minutes ago, Kitsumy said:

Im not sure about others armys but im sure not everyone got hit hard on his playable units. Like slanesh criying about slangors when they were allready useless so who cares if they are nerfed 5 or 300%. Only playable units points are important

If it were only Slaangors, I think people would have assumed it was a cheeky joke from GW :P

The probablem is that nearly all of Slaanesh was hit hard, good and bad, despite Slaanesh being a mid tier army it was nerfed like a top tier one.

The reason Slaangors get mentioned so much is because they're so unbelievably bad it's kind of hilarious someone thought they needed a points increase.

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Just now, Kitsumy said:

Im not sure about others armys but im sure not everyone got hit hard on his playable units. Like slanesh criying about slangors when they were allready useless so who cares if they are nerfed 5 or 300%. Only playable units points are important

Slaangors only demonstrate the absurdity of what was done.

If you want to look at only playable Slaanesh units, be my guest. KoS 340 to 420, Glutos 400 to 475, Blissbarb Archers 160 to 180, Slickblade Seekers 200 to 230, Blissbarb Seekers 180 to 220, Contorted Epitome 210 to 255...

We also lost Battlelines from S2D (which were also nerfed, Marauders for a reason, Warriros for no reason at all).

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1 hour ago, HollowHills said:

Idoneth Deepkin Analysis Part 2

Leviadon - 380 points up 40

The leviadon is another unit that saw almost no play following the initial faction launch. However, a new warscroll plus the addition of mount traits dramatically increased the viability of the turtle.

The leviadon brings excellent shooting, moderate combat damage, a very high save and a large plus 1 to save aura. Unfortunately, both the save and damage deteriorate quite quickly once the leviadon starts taking wounds.

Although many would see an area of affect save bonus as an incredible buff, arguably this is of limited impact in an Idoneth force.

The forgotten nightmares battle trait makes Idoneth highly resistant to shooting, high tide ensures combat dominance without reply and movement enables the Idoneth to control the battlefield without needing to survive enemy damage. 

Secondly, taking a single monster unit over more eels further weakens the ability to play objectives in a low model count army.

For that reason the Leviadon has not seen widespread play at the top tables.

Regarding the point increases it seems likely the new monster bonus effects have played a role in pushing up costs. It remains to be seen how useful these abilities will prove. 

The viability of monster units may also depend on how many anti monster units see play in the meta.For instance, both Kragnos and Yndrasta both have very powerful anti monster abilities.

Overall the Leviadon is likely to be a less attractive pick.

Verdict - Unjustified increase

 

Eidolon of the Sea - 355 points  up 25

Both Eidolons saw changes as part of Morathi, sadly this has had little impact on the eidolon of the sea.

This unit suffers from several compounding issues, some of which are specific to Idoneth but others reflective of the wider meta. 

Firstly, the Idoneth spell lore is largely lacking in either potent buffs or damage. Steed of Tides offers certain utility, but is often redundant given the high movement of most Idoneth units.

Secondly, although the Eidolon has a potent spell for reducing enemy hit the range is so low that this is rarely useful.

Thirdly, the presence of three extremely strong magic armies in the current meta means the risk of having your magic shutdown is high.

Lastly, this Eidolon offers little utility or damage with a lackluster bravery buff and low damage when compared to the storm Eidolon.

The Eidolon of the Sea was an unattractive choice previously and despite the addition of universal spells is likely to remain so. This point increase is perhaps the most egregious of the Idoneth range.

Verdict - Unjustified Increase

 

Ishlaen Heroes - Increases of 5 to 10 points each

The small Ishlaen heroes all saw minor point increases which are unlikely to impact the meta.

The Soulrender is focused on supporting Namarti units. As both type of Nemarti see little to no play in the meta the Soulrender has equally seen no play. No point change was likely to impact this.

Lotann is a named character designed to buff Nemarti units. Unfortunately for him not only are Nemarti extremely poor units, but his buffs are also obtained from other sources within the battletome. This has made Lotann redundant since the release of the army. No point cost could ever make Lotann viable.

The Tidecaster is a basic wizard similar to other foot wizards. Her casting does little to nothing for the army, but she has previously seen some play with a so called "reverse tide" build focused on a turn 2 high tide. Again this point increase is unlikely to change anything.

Finally the Soulscryer. This is a key hero in most Idoneth lists enabling both deepstrike and a significant bonus to charges. The power of these buffs are such that the Soulscryer will continue to see play in many lists. It is possible that the smaller board size combined with point increases may encourage some players to do away with the Soulscryer. 

Verdict - Unjustified Increases 

 

Nemarti Reavers - 115 points down 5

Reavers are an archer unit that provide neither high damage nor long range. Their shooting, even at the best profile, provides less reliable damage than that from an Allopex harpoon. Plus they cannot provide anywhere near the same level of combat support.

If shooting is required then either an Allopex unit or allied units from elsewhere are likely to be more desirable.

This unit has seen little play and this very minor change is unlikely to impact that.

Verdict - Irrelevant Decrease 

I mean, this feels mostly like "I, an IDK player, think all the points changes are too high!"

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Can someone explain to me why warp lightning vortex went up 10pts and the other 2 skaven spells by 45 and 40??

Bell of doom and Vermintide both arent very good spells... even at old points.

Warlp lighning vortex broke the game for a while at 100pts before it got erretad with less range.

To pay 90pts for warp lightning vortex and 85pts for Bell, 80pts for vermintide seems mind blowingly bizare to be frank???

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2 hours ago, Golub87 said:

Aside from point cost nerfs, my model collection is literally unplayable in my chosen allegiance. My battlelines are no longer legal.

This is where I’m at too. It’s not like I’m so mad I’m quitting AoS but my Khorne army with heavy S2D elements is no longer a legal army and given that all my stuff has been nerfed I’m just not really excited to go buy more stuff to make my army which is now comparatively worse into a playable list again.  
 

I’m probably waiting for a new slaves or Khorne Battletome before really thinking about playing AoS in all likelihood and that’s likely a ways away still

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10 minutes ago, Dressedspring1 said:

This is where I’m at too. It’s not like I’m so mad I’m quitting AoS but my Khorne army with heavy S2D elements is no longer a legal army and given that all my stuff has been nerfed I’m just not really excited to go buy more stuff to make my army which is now comparatively worse into a playable list again.  
 

I’m probably waiting for a new slaves or Khorne Battletome before really thinking about playing AoS in all likelihood and that’s likely a ways away still

Chaos overall got hit hard

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Observations

Points increases are across the board so every army has to make some hard choices about what to field. I have fewer models, so do you. I wish i could still fit everything in but I cant so I will move on or play at 2,500.

Some of my units got wrecked. (Looking at you stormfiends). If I choose to take them they now have to be the main focus of my army rather than one of two or three. I do not like this but it is not game breaking.

Some armies were obviously changed with new books in mind. I dont use them but have heard multiple BOC rumours for example so perhaps there is a sunny upland for them to graze coming. 

The game is a different game. I have watched a few batreps and what is completely obvious when dice start rolling is that to value a unit now you have to look at it differently. The avalanche of CP, heroic actons and new generic abilities coupled with new ways of scoring mean it is a much bigger change than just points. The battleplans are worth a proper review.

List building got harder, more complex and more tactical. (I like this). 

I can choose opportunities in game to score that suit both my army and position in the game. That is drastically different so I need to assess my units with this in mind. Watching batreps, more than 50% of points are from strategies and round tactics. 

There are still a number of issues for certain units that points dont fix. They have badly designed warscrolls and need a change to lift or lower them. GW need to get that right or people will have entirely justifiable gripes.

 

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48 minutes ago, Dracan said:

Can someone explain to me why warp lightning vortex went up 10pts and the other 2 skaven spells by 45 and 40??

Bell of doom and Vermintide both arent very good spells... even at old points.

Warlp lighning vortex broke the game for a while at 100pts before it got erretad with less range.

To pay 90pts for warp lightning vortex and 85pts for Bell, 80pts for vermintide seems mind blowingly bizare to be frank???

they seem to have generally point increase to Faction endless spell to all be around the 80-100pt area for some reason.

not sure if it because endless spell got buff to work in every hero phase so damage is technically double but i believe not all the faction endless spell are predetory or work in the hero phase unless they plan to massive rewrite too them

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