AoS3 - The points discussion

[Acrozatarim]

9 minutes ago, Fred1245 said:

Between core rules and barely getting touched, Lumineth seem almost unstoppable. 

The Lumineth points rises place them firmly in the third of armies who saw the greatest increase. They're no Tzeentch or DoK, sure, but 18 factions saw lower price rises than them and only 5 saw more.

I know everyone obsesses over Sentinels but Lumineth are going to have a lot fewer points left for those Sentinels after covering everything else.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 minute ago, Acrozatarim said:

The Lumineth points rises place them firmly in the third of armies who saw the greatest increase. They're no Tzeentch or DoK, sure, but 18 factions saw lower price rises than them and only 5 saw more.

I know everyone obsesses over Sentinels but Lumineth are going to have a lot fewer points left for those Sentinels after covering everything else.

Can you share the source of your data?

[Acrozatarim]

2 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Can you share the source of your data?

Sure. Someone made a spreadsheet here: GHB 2021 changes - Google Sheets and there's a post on the Disciples of Tzeentch FB group where someone's taken the stats here and put them in order by faction from least to most.

[Feii]

New KoS point cost Blaze it. 

[AaronWilson]

Seraphon point changes seem fair, think Engine of the gods being a hero + monster for only a tiny points increase is a big W, especially as summoning 10 saurus is more relavent now points have gone up. Basic slann at only 5 points increase seems absolutely golden as well. Sink chief on steg got a hefty increase but he is a hero and monster with good output, will be good to build some lizard lists with the new points.

Gotrek is looking absolutley mad good if his warscroll stays the same for reduced points. 

[HollowHills]

Idoneth Deepkin Analysis - Part One

Background 

Idoneth Deepkin are the second oldest battletome and one of the only 1.0 books still in play. Since their release they have consistently had a win ratio of greater than 60% and have been a regular fixture in competitive matched play.

Since Hedonites (v1) and FEC have fallen out of the meta Idoneth have lost their natural predators in the combat phase. This leaves the army as the only current force in age of sigmar that can rely on fight first to dominate the combat phase. Furthermore, Idoneth are extremely shooting resistant which has also assisted them in the current meta.

Following BR Morathi Idoneth have gained further strength due to the enhancements to the Allopex warscroll. These shark units have offered reliable shooting, good durability, combat effectiveness which scales well with buffs and a powerful counter to pile ins.

Currently Idoneth are considered an S Tier army with a win ratio often exceeding 70%.

Morrsarr Guard 195 Points up 25 points

Offensive eels are the iconic Idoneth unit and have been the backbone of competitive lists since their release. They are a unit with many strengths, high damage, high movement, good durability and easy access to buffs. Their only real weaknesses being a low model count and lackluster damage if they haven't charged.

The changes in AoS 3, such as unit champions being able to issue commands, and the overall smaller board size are likely to be beneficial to an already strong unit. For instance, a unit of Morrsarr guard fighting alongside an Eidolon of the Storm van easily reach 2s to hit and 2s to wound rerolling 1s of both. 

I believe three factors have contributed to their significant point increases.

1) The existing strength of this unit.

2) The general point increases associated with AoS 3.

3) The buff potential of new AoS 3 rules.

Regardless, Idoneth remain reliant on this incredibly potent unit and that is unlikely to change until a new battletome is released. 

Verdict - Justified Increase

 

 

Ishlaen Guard - 155 points up 15 points

Aka defense eels. A small unit of Ishlaen has been popular in recent Idoneth lists to help screen and absorb shooting due to their ability to ignore rend. 

It remains to be seen as to whether Ishlaen guard can reach a save of 2 plus in the new addition. They gain a save of 3 plus on the charge, but due to warscroll wording it is unclear if this is a modifier or a characteristic change. This seems unlikely, but if allowed could make Ishaen more viable.

The increase here seems to be due to standard AoS 3 changes.

Verdict - Justified Increase 

 

 

Akhelian Allopex- 125 points up 15 points

The Akhelian Allopex was extremely weak and overcosted at release. A fan favourite model that saw little play at the high end. However, following the release of Morathi the sharks got a new warscroll that significantly buffed their potential.

They now have access to reliable shooting with rend, good for sniping heroes and combat damage close to that of Morrsarr which is not dependent on charging. Importantly they also have access to a shooting attack which if it hits (does not need to wound) prevents a unit from piling in. This provides Idoneth with a counter to horde style units which they may struggle with due to a small model count. It also allows the Idoneth to enter combat outside of their turn 3 advantage.

One key change outside of the point increase is the reduction in maximum unit size from 3 to 2, due to the new reinforcement rules. This prevents them from benefiting as well from command abilities, such as the previously strong Lord of Tides ability which enabled large attack increases on the potent jaw attack.

The point changes here are relatively minor and in line with similar general increases within other armies. However, the general changes in AoS 3 also make Allopex units less attractive. It is likely there will still be a place for an Allopex or two due to the sheer utility of preventing pile ins. 

Verdict - Justified Increase

 

Volturnos - 260 points down 10

Volturnos has achieved popularity over the standard Akhelian King due to his command ability affecting up to 3 units rather than 1. This enables Idoneth to further stack turn 3 power by buffing multiple units with extra attacks.

Prior to AoS 3 it was common to use multiple command points to give several units plus 2, 3 or even 4 attacks each. This combined with fight first often meant the Idoneth could table an opponent in a single round of combat, or develop a lead so significant the opponent would concede.

As this strategy will no longer be viable due to the new command point rule of one Volturnos has lost some of his power. 

Despite this it is necessary to take either Volturnos or an Akhelian King as general to unlock eels as battleline. As Volturnos command ability remains significantly better and he is magic resistant he likely remains the choice pick. 

Verdict - Irrelevant Decrease 

 

 

[Scurvydog]

Someone seriously sat down and decided that Sentinels should only be +10 pts, while Saurus warriors should be +15 pts and Dragon Ogors should be +20 pts, I don't even know how we can measure anything else based on this information as coming from a reasonable place.

Either those FAQs will contain a LOT of information, or this is all completely bonkers land. Looking at the 40k FAQs and our latest FAQs I think holding out hope that these release day FAQs will be anything but a bare minimum, is just a setup for disappointment.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Scurvydog

[Yes-yes warpstone]

Well, skink 75 pints for 10, clanrats 130 point for 20 (65 for 10). The 2 units have the same profile except skink has more bravery and shoot. LOL.

[stratigo]

58 minutes ago, Fred1245 said:

Between core rules and barely getting touched, Lumineth seem almost unstoppable. 

Lumineth are roughly as good as they used to be.

 

 

Seraphon are goinbg to be sitting at the top for some time still

[stratigo]

46 minutes ago, Acrozatarim said:

The Lumineth points rises place them firmly in the third of armies who saw the greatest increase. They're no Tzeentch or DoK, sure, but 18 factions saw lower price rises than them and only 5 saw more.

I know everyone obsesses over Sentinels but Lumineth are going to have a lot fewer points left for those Sentinels after covering everything else.

Again, this really only matters for units that would be taken competetively anyways.

 

Teclis i think is the biggest example of relevant points increases, but the new edition seems almost catered around him, so he deserved it.

[wayniac]

As par for the course seems like the adjustments are haphazard and random with little or no justification or reasoning, like they were ran through a random number generator.  Slaanesh got absolutely decimated and I feel like this is where GW's lack of transparency in design choices is going to be a huge issue, because something like this really warrants something from the designer on just why they felt like it was necessary.

Lumineth, which was already super strong to the point of being broken, seems to have come out without much damage while Slaanesh which had issues was gutted for no reason and kicked to the bottom.  Makes no sense how or why these changes were done, and with what reasoning behind it.

Edited June 18, 2021 by wayniac

[Erdemo86]

Also no one talks about sentinels got buffed!! You can now play a unit of 30, before Max size was 20… 🥲

Edited June 18, 2021 by Erdemo86

[UnholyRevenant]

A lot of the time Sentinels were used as battleine, and they are conditionally unlocked by needing another unit first which also went up in cost. As did a lot of the other units including support pieces, yes they can just take 20 as a standard unit if they want, but that's 300 for 20, or 450 if battleline. I honestly dont think they will be that much of a problem anymore. If my opponent wants to dump that many points into them and plan a strategy around unleash hell, then go for it.

 

[stratigo]

3 minutes ago, UnholyRevenant said:

A lot of the time Sentinels were used as battleine, and they are conditionally unlocked by needing another unit first which also went up in cost. As did a lot of the other units including support pieces, yes they can just take 20 as a standard unit if they want, but that's 300 for 20, or 450 if battleline. I honestly dont think they will be that much of a problem anymore. If my opponent wants to dump that many points into them and plan a strategy around unleash hell, then go for it.

 

I don't think the top lumineth lists are going to change that much. That means a couple big blocks of sentinels, teclis, character support, and as few wardens as you can get away with.

[Clan's Cynic]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record...

Fyreslayer points are a weird one. It felt like GW didn't really know what they wanted to do with them, as a swing too hard in either direction could've drastically altered their meta. There's a few things that standout as a bit odd, but the pluses and minuses I'd say even out to the point that any overall increase is far smaller than most other armies.

• Lords of the Lodge Battalion was basically an auto-include, so that's 150pts saved.
• Battlesmith went down 15pts despite being auto-include in every Fyreslayer list. Considering 'Totems' received a buff in the core rules, this one's really bizarre. All I can think is GW have too many of the models gathering dust in the warehouse.
• Magmadroths received what seems to be an obligatory Monster Tax, but just about everybody else was slapped with that as well so it's whatever. Time to start banking Ur-Gold in the Aetheric Void.
• Vulkites going up by 20pts was the other weird one. They're not bad, but they're not Hearthguard Berzerker good and competitively were largely taken because "even for a tourney list I'm not spending £400 just on HGB." All I can think is they were increased for a Battleline Tax, but the writer forgot that a Runefather General makes the HBG into Battleline too.
• Hearthguard went up by 5pts and despite Lords of the Lodge hurting their competitiveness pretty badly they're still a very strong unit, the strongest in the army at that with things like Hermdar's Command Ability still around. 
• Auric Hearthguard going up by 5pts wasn't a massive increase, but considering they cost the same as the HGB despite being an objective worse unit this was an odd one when minor points increases/decreases have occurred elsewhere (Runemaster going down by 5pts most notably). Not enough of an increase to matter on the whole, but still a bit of an "Eh?" moment.
• Endless Spells Invocations are another headscratcher. Whilst these seem to have skyrocketed up in cost across the whole game, the Runic Fyrewall going up by 20pts wasn't a huge shock considering it was practically an auto-include. The Molten Infernoth going up to 75pts when it was already our worst Invocation at 50pts is weirder when you notice the Flame-Spitter remained at 60.

Everything else was pretty minor in terms of increases and decreases and unless you were spamming Vulkites, probably isn't going to change up lists very much; Hearthguard are still our best unit to spam, albeit limited to 15 maximum, Vulkites are still "not bad, not great", nothing about the Heroes really changed beyond none having any excuse to not include a Battlesmith now (which they didn't already). Hermdar is still the best Lodge.

 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Clan's Cynic

[UnholyRevenant]

13 minutes ago, stratigo said:

I don't think the top lumineth lists are going to change that much. That means a couple big blocks of sentinels, teclis, character support, and as few wardens as you can get away with.

As with anything we will have to see how this edition shakes out as well as what the tourney meta shapes itself into, but in this humble gamers opinion, I dont think it will be as bad as everyone is making out. 

[stratigo]

40 minutes ago, UnholyRevenant said:

As with anything we will have to see how this edition shakes out as well as what the tourney meta shapes itself into, but in this humble gamers opinion, I dont think it will be as bad as everyone is making out. 

teclis remains a nexus of bad feels literally existing to tell your opponent "no you can't do that"

[Golub87]

2 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

I'd perhaps suggest waiting for any accompanying FAQ's that will inevitably come out rather than deciding not to play AoS3 based on half the information.

OK, serious questions: Do you expect that GW will reverse their ruling on using S2D units as battlelines in god armies? Do you expect that they will reverse Slaanesh points back to 2.0?

I am genuinely asking because I do not see that happening so I do not see what is the point in waiting for the FAQ

[Golub87]

41 minutes ago, UnholyRevenant said:

I dont think it will be as bad as everyone is making out. 

Aside from point cost nerfs, my model collection is literally unplayable in my chosen allegiance. My battlelines are no longer legal.

[RuneBrush]

6 minutes ago, Golub87 said:

OK, serious questions: Do you expect that GW will reverse their ruling on using S2D units as battlelines in god armies? Do you expect that they will reverse Slaanesh points back to 2.0?

I am genuinely asking because I do not see that happening so I do not see what is the point in waiting for the FAQ

Honestly - I've not got a clue what's going to be in an FAQ.  I do know that it's not uncommon to see them clear up and resolve certain things though - certainly god marked units have been tackled like this in the past.  Is it only battleline that you've lost?

[Chikout]

18 minutes ago, Golub87 said:

OK, serious questions: Do you expect that GW will reverse their ruling on using S2D units as battlelines in god armies? Do you expect that they will reverse Slaanesh points back to 2.0?

I am genuinely asking because I do not see that happening so I do not see what is the point in waiting for the FAQ

Honestly I don't expect Hedonites to get any real attention until the next ghb. A year or so  to fix a problem is fairly typical for them. I'd love be to be proven wrong though. 

[Enoby]

1 minute ago, Chikout said:

Honestly I don't expect Hedonites to get any real attention until the next ghb. A year or so  to fix a problem is fairly typical for them. I'd love be to be proven wrong though. 

I'm hoping that we'll see something in December, but... well, I'm not holding on to hope for it

[tripchimeras]

I think with the slaanesh nerfs we should consider the very real possibility that the pt changes were locked in before the Slaanesh book even dropped.  Its well known that it had been sitting on a shelf for 6 months to a year when it got released, and in the back of my mind I just have this thought that whoever wrote it TRULY thought that the book was going to kick butt (Which is insane in itself), and when they decided on the point hikes they just thought the MSU meta would make this "powerful" book even better with summoning so they hiked the points even further for third.  Only for it to release right around the same time and find out, "oh ******, this book is terrible" too late to change the  GHB.   Only explanation that makes any sense to me.

For most of the rest, there were some good point changes, there were some bad point changes, and there were some wild point changes, but honestly for a new edition its pretty expected imo.  Its honestly pretty difficult to know out of the gate considering how many things went up, combined with all of the new rules, just how impactful they are.  My suspicion is that Cities, DoK (I know they had pt hikes but they still feel undercosted), LRL, S2D, and OBR all feel like pretty big winners with Cities and LRL especially feeling strong.  Can I just say that whoever made the decision to make Irondrakes conditional battleline with this new ruleset is literally insane...  

All that being said, its a brand new edition, and GW just does not put enough into QA/playtesting we all know this.  Like every new edition there are going to be 3-6 months of jankiness and weirdness until all faqs are released, we get a few new books under our belts, and the winter faqs come in to fix the rest of the unintended rules breakage they missed first go around.  Its going to be fine, and the great thing is that the base rules for this edition really do feel super solid, so after we all help GW do the QA they should have done from the start I think things will be looking better then 2nd.

Personally I'm super happy with Orruk Warclans and SoB.  They came out looking good.  I think the SoB hype is probably a little misplaced because shooting got stronger and gatebreakers getting more expensive DOES hurt.  But hey, thats not really what SoB was ever about, so the fact that we can take 4 model armies should rightfully be celebrated unequivocally regardless of the actual power level haha.  Warclans definitely feel super solid though.

[Dankboss]

I've told my Slaanesh friend he can use the old points, since they were clearly already pointed for AoS 3.0. No point letting GW get away with everything. It's use old points or shelve them.

[Enoby]

1 minute ago, Dankboss said:

I've told my Slaanesh friend he can use the old points, since they were clearly already pointed for AoS 3.0. No point letting GW get away with everything. It's use old points or shelve them.

Semi tempted to go back to the days of AoS 0 and write our own points