AoS3 - The points discussion

[RuneBrush]

Rumour thread was getting chock-a-bloc with talks about points, so here's a thread to discuss them.

Ground rules as ever:

• Everything has been increased in points pretty much across the board
• We've not played a game yet, some point increases may actually not be as bad as we think
• If you wish to rant and rage, please do it somewhere else
• Many of us suspect that there will be some FAQ & errata coming alongside the new books
• The sky is not falling

Edited June 18, 2021 by RuneBrush
Added some extra points

[Mattrulesok]

My condolences to Slaanesh

[Enoby]

I think everyone knows my opinion by now, but I'll say it one more time on the correct thread

Thank you @Feorag for compiling this table:

As everyone can see, Slaanesh got a pretty high points increase, especially on the KoS and Shalaxi. I may be wrong here, but from what I've seen Slaanesh has had the highest increase throughout the GHB.

And if Slaanesh was tearing up the meta, this would be understandable. 

However, as some may already know, Slaanesh's points were a hotly contested topic. In fact, in a survey of over 300 players (not just Slaanesh players), 79% of respondents said they believed a significant number of units were overcosted. This survey was sent by numerous people to the rules team, with one person getting a response saying they'd pass it on to the lead designers.

If you'd like to know more about the results of the survey, please find it here:

 

In addition, throughout all tournaments posted on by the AoS shorts Twitter, only a single Slaanesh list has placed within the top 5. 

With both the community and the tournaments saying that Slaanesh was a bit too weak at the moment, and a large community push to make GW aware of people's feelings, I can say I'm thoroughly disappointed that not only has Slaanesh been nerfed by the GHB, but it was the most nerfed army.

I won't post a collection of the comments found about the subject across various sites. I will however say that they are 90% negative and 10% trying to cope with it and see a silver lining (which is commendable).

Yeah, it's easy to say "well everyone got an increase so there's no reason that Slaanesh is special in that regard", but I hope the points above help to contextualise people's disappointment. 

It's not that we were nerfed, it's that we were the most nerfed army points wise despite not doing well in tournaments and a previous large community backlash. It seems incredibly out of touch. 

I will try some games to test if it's as bad as I think it is, but I have already played some AoS 3 games (with AoS 2 points) and I can say that while Slaanesh was buffed, they were not OP - in fact, they felt about right for their old points (which, as discussed, were overwhelmingly thought of as too high).   

[Chikout]

It unfortunately seems to be rather easy to pick and loser. It's much harder to pick a winner. A lot of the top armies got pretty big points hikes. Some armies like Nurgle and FEC got quite a light touch. Interesting times. 

[Acrozatarim]

So, looking at the tables someone compiled, Slaanesh had an average % increase of just under 15%. Tzeentch had an average % increase of just under 27%.

This doesn't really ameliorate the Slaanesh position much, though. Tzeentch was in a stronger place than Slaanesh prior to the points costs, and the only other two armies hit at the same sort of level were Daughters of Khaine (just over 20%) and Seraphon (just over 14%). Most of the rest were in the 5-10% cost increase bracket, with a few going below that (particularly Death factions).

So Slaanesh may have not been hit the hardest, but they're third in the rankings of who got the most price increases, which seems pretty excessive.

 

Interestingly, to swing on a tangent, although Sentinels are the white whale of many folks and only went up by 10 points, Lumineth overall got a pretty meaningful price increase and clocked in at an average of just under 10% price increase, meaning they didn't get off as lightly as that modest Sentinel rise might indicate. Most factions in the game had a more modest price increase than them.

[a74xhx]

No forgeworld? No Legends? No Brettonia / Tomb Kings?

[Drezden]

1 hour ago, Enoby said:

I think everyone knows my opinion by now, but I'll say it one more time on the correct thread

Thank you @Feorag for compiling this table:

As everyone can see, Slaanesh got a pretty high points increase, especially on the KoS and Shalaxi. I may be wrong here, but from what I've seen Slaanesh has had the highest increase throughout the GHB.

And if Slaanesh was tearing up the meta, this would be understandable. 

However, as some may already know, Slaanesh's points were a hotly contested topic. In fact, in a survey of over 300 players (not just Slaanesh players), 79% of respondents said they believed a significant number of units were overcosted. This survey was sent by numerous people to the rules team, with one person getting a response saying they'd pass it on to the lead designers.

If you'd like to know more about the results of the survey, please find it here:

 

In addition, throughout all tournaments posted on by the AoS shorts Twitter, only a single Slaanesh list has placed within the top 5. 

With both the community and the tournaments saying that Slaanesh was a bit too weak at the moment, and a large community push to make GW aware of people's feelings, I can say I'm thoroughly disappointed that not only has Slaanesh been nerfed by the GHB, but it was the most nerfed army.

I won't post a collection of the comments found about the subject across various sites. I will however say that they are 90% negative and 10% trying to cope with it and see a silver lining (which is commendable).

Yeah, it's easy to say "well everyone got an increase so there's no reason that Slaanesh is special in that regard", but I hope the points above help to contextualise people's disappointment. 

It's not that we were nerfed, it's that we were the most nerfed army points wise despite not doing well in tournaments and a previous large community backlash. It seems incredibly out of touch. 

I will try some games to test if it's as bad as I think it is, but I have already played some AoS 3 games (with AoS 2 points) and I can say that while Slaanesh was buffed, they were not OP - in fact, they felt about right for their old points (which, as discussed, were overwhelmingly thought of as too high).   

 

[Enoby]

2 minutes ago, Drezden said:

 

Funnily enough, I used to play Mortals of Khorne - nearly put me off AoS for good

[Malakithe]

A lot of the increases across the board dont make sense. Some factions got decimated while other are workable. Some might even be ok/good.

I dont know what to do about my poor Fyreslayers while KO is actually in a decent position. All of Chaos got hammered though. Kinda scratching my head with my Mawtribes now but I think I can make a workable Underguts list.

The overall loss of battalions plus the points hikes have me lost overall with list building as there is no theme or direction to go. 

[MitGas]

1 hour ago, Acrozatarim said:

Tzeentch had an average % increase of just under 27%.

😱

Well,at least it's some kind of change...😅  I'll fly myself out the door now.

Edited June 18, 2021 by MitGas

[Acrozatarim]

Yeah, Exalted Flamers alone went up 40% (!).

It's worth noting that Endless Spells do push the extremes a bit further here with the average change calculations, since a lot of them shot up in points by leaps and bounds.

[feadair]

Overall, the increases remind me of the ones we saw at the start of WH 40k 9e, discussed in depth here https://www.goonhammer.com/the-9th-edition-munitorum-field-manual-points-review/.  TL;DR: Most of the adjustments were driven by a somewhat consistent algorithm, but there were also a number of targeted nerfs or buffs that did not always find the right mark.

[stratigo]

Average point increases are less important then point increases on units that were actually playable. Like, in actuality, slaangors could go to 10000000 points a model and it doesn't really matter because slaangors were already so bad no one was bothering. The issue with slaanesh is that the points hikes seem targeted at their playable units to make them less playable.

 

As for tzeentch, just think about how annoying 30 pink horrors are going to be. 

[MitGas]

2 minutes ago, Acrozatarim said:

Yeah, Exalted Flamers alone went up 40% (!).

It's worth noting that Endless Spells do push the extremes a bit further here with the average change calculations, since a lot of them shot up in points by leaps and bounds.

Well, with the new shackles in front of my flamers and a trusty Fatemaster by their side it's gonna be a disgusting situation to deal with still for many armies. 😎

What I actually "worry" about the most is how expensive our casters are. Tzeentch below 2k points was IMO never anywhere near his potential in AoS 2 if you wanted to field a couple of cool units and not just 5 random clowns doing magics with a couple of Horrors annoying everyone who wants to beat those nerds up, so with the higher point costs now and nerfs, the army will have to cut some significant corners.  But that is down to our group often playing in teams though (like 2x1250 points e.g. where you simply can't have many casters and units which castrates Tzeentch).

Nerfs are fine but ideally I'd like to remain at a somewhat decent spot with an army below 2k points. But I know that this isn't exactly what they balance around...

[Mordeus]

Seeing as I skipped 2nd Ed none of these changes shock me 😁

[Golub87]

2 minutes ago, stratigo said:

Average point increases are less important then point increases on units that were actually playable. Like, in actuality, slaangors could go to 10000000 points a model and it doesn't really matter because slaangors were already so bad no one was bothering. The issue with slaanesh is that the points hikes seem targeted at their playable units to make them less playable.

This is very important to note.

I was already quite frustrated with the way the game is designed, but I talked myself into giving 3.0 a chance. It has some good points.

But then, not just that my Slaanesh force was hit with these points hikes but I also lost the ability to bring in S2D as battleline. Technically I am able to field a legal army with the models I own solely thanks to Daemonettes. 3x10 for 420 pts.

In the end I feel somewhat relieved - I don't have to give 3.0 a chance after all and I have a firm and objective reason why I will not play it. No need to play a game with 3x10 daemonnettes as battleline and definitely no reason to fork out $$$ for new battlelines. I can't play, even if I wanted to.

[Acrozatarim]

I think the biggest winners of the points changes are definitely the Sons of Behemat. They didn't experience a meaningful points rise so can still fit the three megas + mancrushers list into 2k, and now have the opportunity to build a four megas list.

Soulblight obviously did pretty damn well out of it too.

Slaves to Darkness got away with very limited price rises, but the drop in Marauder unit size probably hurts.

Ossiarchs made off with very minor average points increases overall. They'll need an FAQ to fix their wonky rules interactions with 3.0 but if they do get that, they'll be in a strong position.

Flesh-Eaters and Cities of Sigmar were also beneficiaries with only minor average points increases.

[Golub87]

Just now, Acrozatarim said:

Slaves to Darkness got away with very limited price rises, but the drop in Marauder unit size probably hurts.

Marauders needed a nerf.

Chaos Warriors, an iconic unit that needed a boost also crumbles under new points and unit sizes. Best way to take them was 5 man for a very affordable but almost useless battleline or in 15 man unit for a pricey but resilient anvil. Now you can only take them in 10s or 20s (for a whooping 400 pts). Also they are not batteline for gods.

[Rors]

Where are people accessing the new points costs?

[sorokyl]

 

3 minutes ago, Acrozatarim said:

I think the biggest winners of the points changes are definitely the Sons of Behemat. They didn't experience a meaningful points rise so can still fit the three megas + mancrushers list into 2k, and now have the opportunity to build a four megas list.

Yes! Finally I can play warhammer with a single sculpt!  (God they really need some more mega-gargant kits.. I just am too much of a hobbiest to paint the same $200 kit multiple times)

[pnkdth]

41 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

A lot of the increases across the board dont make sense. Some factions got decimated while other are workable. Some might even be ok/good.

I dont know what to do about my poor Fyreslayers while KO is actually in a decent position. All of Chaos got hammered though. Kinda scratching my head with my Mawtribes now but I think I can make a workable Underguts list.

The overall loss of battalions plus the points hikes have me lost overall with list building as there is no theme or direction to go. 

We're essentially in a position where we are going to have to find "the new normal." At first list-building is going to feel off but I am fairly certain it will soon be business as usual. Especially as more realise it isn't just their faction who's struggling to find their new identity or style.

[Fred1245]

2 hours ago, Chikout said:

It unfortunately seems to be rather easy to pick and loser. It's much harder to pick a winner. A lot of the top armies got pretty big points hikes. Some armies like Nurgle and FEC got quite a light touch. Interesting times. 

Between core rules and barely getting touched, Lumineth seem almost unstoppable. 

[Fred1245]

1 hour ago, a74xhx said:

No forgeworld? No Legends? No Brettonia / Tomb Kings?

These are points changes. The whole point of legends was to never update any of those again.

[Chikout]

6 minutes ago, Fred1245 said:

Between core rules and barely getting touched, Lumineth seem almost unstoppable. 

What are you talking about? Teclis went up 80 points. Wardens went up a lot. The fox went up a lot. The wind chargers went up a lot. Lumineth were pretty much the only faction (except Slaanesh) to see increases across the board on an army that was already pretty elite. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Chikout

[RuneBrush]

27 minutes ago, Golub87 said:

This is very important to note.

I was already quite frustrated with the way the game is designed, but I talked myself into giving 3.0 a chance. It has some good points.

But then, not just that my Slaanesh force was hit with these points hikes but I also lost the ability to bring in S2D as battleline. Technically I am able to field a legal army with the models I own solely thanks to Daemonettes. 3x10 for 420 pts.

In the end I feel somewhat relieved - I don't have to give 3.0 a chance after all and I have a firm and objective reason why I will not play it. No need to play a game with 3x10 daemonnettes as battleline and definitely no reason to fork out $$$ for new battlelines. I can't play, even if I wanted to.

I'd perhaps suggest waiting for any accompanying FAQ's that will inevitably come out rather than deciding not to play AoS3 based on half the information.

 

2 hours ago, a74xhx said:

No forgeworld? No Legends? No Brettonia / Tomb Kings?

There may be a monsterous arcanum update coming along and possibly a legends at some point.  One big issue with people doing reveals of preview copies is that they only have a portion of what's going to be released.