AoS 3 - how does your army fare?

[Reuben Parker]

14 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Any idea why people would say this is the case? I thought S2D could be taken because it gained the keyword from the Warscroll, unless there's now an additional restriction?

Well the new AoS3 factions section says you only get allegiance abilities if all your units are picked from the same pitched battle profile excluding allies. So currently StD units get the Khorne keyword which satisfied AoS2 but for AoS3 they will need to be under Khorne pitched battle profile list. 

[Maddpainting]

10 hours ago, Vaporlocke said:

Started at the bottom... And we haven't moved since 6th ed fantasy. 

We were top army for months after our 2.0 book came out then spiked again pre CP nerf, we were nerf not once but 3 times b.c of a few units (Mostly Tzeentch units) and Summoning lists. 

I went again the top player and team with BoC during those times at Majors with a large showing of BoC players. So while we are down as of right now, just a few minor tweaks can put us back on top. We are equal to Deepkin in speed, have lots of throw away units unlike Deepkin and other armies a like, a better endless spell (If we can get it off lol), access to cheap fly monsters, and weirdly we have a lot of buffs, they are just hard to get them off. We do have some of the worst warscrolls sure, but like I said, any good minor change can unbalance us as we have seen in the past a couple times now. BoC is hard to balance when you can make a glass cannon army charge turn 1. I've been playing beastmen/BoC sense they were with Hordes/Champions of chaos (I still have my really old chaos warriors, they ones that look like they are squatting lol), BoC is in a hugely better place than all of fantasy IMO, and for the most part outside of 1/3 of the warscrolls are just bad, Monsters has no real support, at least Brayherd and Warherd are playable and winable, you just need to be happy with losing 90% of your army to do so while only killing 40-50% of theirs lol.


With that said, how are BoC in 3.0 pre FAQs?

Over all they lost Marks which a lot of players love, some units no longer get their full buffs b.c they can not be reinforced to gain them, 50/90mm based with a 1" each units really suck to even reinforce them at all, but we have cheap Monsters, great at MSU, get take Core battalions for days. So this is going to effect different player differently, some it completely destroyed their armies, others like me are fine. 

Cons

• Reinforcements limit hurts us, some units wanted to be larger to gain buffs, Raiders can't even double reinforce to gain their horde buff anymore.
• No more Battalions, BoC was a book completely built around always taking one, IDK any player that would never take a Battalion, the book was purposed for them. Very sad to see them go
• Marks are now gone, something all BoC players has been asking for a general rule to be marked instead of a Battalion, hopefully this will be FAQed
• Coherency hits everyone and BoC too. We relied on Bestigor, Bullgors, and Enlighten for our damage, Bestigors worked in MSU b.c of Gavespawn, Bullgors or Enlighten could be 6 mans and still work and Gavespawn helped too. But Bestigors are 32mm with 1", Bullgors are 50mm with 1", and Enlighten are 40mm with 1" and a 2" though they are more costly so lose 1/2 the attacks is a big deal.
• Most of our shields are modifiers, while I believe they still stack until the roll (os +2 to save still works against rend 1 or higher) it does mean that no Rend is a nerf to our saves. Gors were only taken to charge units with no Rend, or take a charge while in cover with shields. This is the same for Centigors, Bullgors, etc.. shields are just not worth it anymore for the most part (like i said I believe they still work on rend)
• Buff stacking hurt everyone for sure, sadly BoC was only staying b.c of the buff stacking. While most armies are hurt by this so many armies are not that we could compete with them before, we might not be able to anymore now.
• Can not reliable do 1 drops anymore. BoC loved their 1 or 2 drop armies. Sad to see them go.
• While Monsters did get a buff, Ghorgon, Cygor, Giant, Chimera, and even the new Jabberscythe still isn't worth their points. They themselves just don't do enough and 1 of them getting 1 free abilities per turn isn't enough even ALL monsters gets that, so while all monsters got equally better, that just means ours are still bad.

Pros

• Cheap flying Monster, the Cockatrice is cheap, has the Monster Keyword, can fly. Really easy to take multiples to disrupt the opponent and they were already fine to take.
• While we were hit, we can still do MSU just fine, 3 mans of Bullgors, Enlighten, MSU bestigors can still do something. BoC can still take cheap Doombulls as well. 
• Dragon Ogres counts as 2 models how, meaning a 3 man will outnumber most other 3 mans and 5 mans as DO are 5 wounds. Having a pre-game movements and minor healing, they might be a solid pick for a chaff objective unit, basically an option other than a bunch of Ungors that dies twice as fast and are less damage. Not really viable to take a lot but 1 utility unit. 
• Shaggoth got a big buff as he is a Hero and a Monster, with a Pregame move, some healer for himself already, able to cast a spell too that actually has some good spells (Just hope you don't fight Teclis or Kroat) the Traits and Relics he can take you can make him a monster beat stick hero or a much more tanky one, he also buffs DO's a bit, so him with a DO body guard unit might be much more viable and plays the missions well.
• Grashrak Fellhoof can now be taken in Core Battalions (He could not be taken in Warscroll Battalions). This is a big buff as he has a great spell and is perfect for using on the Herdstone.
• Pred Spells are better and we have one of the best in the game, it might be worth taking a Tzaangor Shaman to ensure it goes off now. Fight first with MW's is a huge buff when it can't backfire on you lol. Just hope you don't fight Teclis or Kroat.
• We have super cheap units and even 1 off models to charge in and eat up Unleash Hell command ability, from Razorgors, to Chariots, and much more.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Maddpainting

[Kadeton]

I mean... GW is aware that people run the various Chaos factions together in mono-god lists. It seems a bit silly to expect that they will completely annihilate that playstyle just because of the wording of a rule when we don't even know what the tables look like, or what exceptions have been made.

Similarly though, it seems a bit early to comment on how any faction is shaping up competitively in the new edition (with the possible exceptions of Slaanesh and Gravelords) since we don't know the points yet. My favourite army is doing great on the rules front, but they could end up being totally OP or absolute garbage depending on how the points shake out.

[AaronWilson]

Seraphon - think will be fine

Ironjawz - think will be fine

Tzeentch - think will be fine

think I'll be fine 

[Grimrock]

53 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said:

Well the new AoS3 factions section says you only get allegiance abilities if all your units are picked from the same pitched battle profile excluding allies. So currently StD units get the Khorne keyword which satisfied AoS2 but for AoS3 they will need to be under Khorne pitched battle profile list. 

The thing that makes me unsure is that currently battletomes themselves dictate that their allegiance runs off the keyword. Heck all of the chaos tomes still have tables for artefacts/spells/whatever that are specifically there for marked StD units. For example khorne has command traits for daemons, bloodbound, and khorne mortals. Since battletomes are supposed to override core rules, and considering the precedent of the whole history of AoS working that way, there's still an argument to be made to allow marked units in the god specific armies. I think GW is definitely going to have to FAQ it.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

39 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

I mean... GW is aware that people run the various Chaos factions together in mono-god lists. It seems a bit silly to expect that they will completely annihilate that playstyle just because of the wording of a rule when we don't even know what the tables look like, or what exceptions have been made.

This is what I think, too.

I wonder about the reason for the change from determining a faction by keywords vs. by pitched battle tables, but whatever it may be: I would be surprised if GW just made this change and let it break everything they set up before without saying a word about it.

[Enoby]

I'd be pretty sad if they got rid of all S2D from marked god battletomes. 

They're not even really good in Slaanesh (though I know they're better in other armies), but there's been a lot of conversion work put in by the community on these armies. It would be a bit of a slap in the face if GW just took it away.

It wouldn't surprise me though. In fact, I'm almost expecting it for the same reason they got rid of battalions. One of the big difficulties in balancing is with Slaves to Darkness units; I'd wager one of the reasons S2D warscrolls are a bit bland (besides marauders for some reason) is because they have to be careful about balancing them. Give them too many warscroll buffs and suddenly they're being better used in another book. Personally I think this should be fixed by better S2D allegiance abilities, but regardless, it wouldn't surprise me if they took a hardline stance on "matched play = balance" and removed the ability to merge S2D into other god armies because it's a potential source of unbalance.

It does really suck for those who bought and converted Archaon for their specific god army and don't enjoy the playstyle of base S2D...     

[MitGas]

But outside of Archaon and/or using a LOT of S2D units, one should be able to use some without problems as simple allies. I don't see how I couldn't field the Sorcerer Lord on Manticore for example.

I know, some lists/armies want/need way more than a unit or two and obviously I'd rather see no changes in that regards too but if it means that S2D units get better warscrolls overall (and who knows, maybe some Tzeentch mortals in return...anyone from GW here? Stop making me spam my biggest wish for AoS 💙), it might be an upgrade in the end.

I believe that they'll find a way to include at least Archaon, kinda like they did with Gotrek and Mega-Gargants. 

Regarding this thread which is a joy to read, I thought about the single Tzeentchian unit that actually benefits the most: Screamers! 😎 Still gotta read the rules in detail though and apparently there's going to be new warscrolls and point costs for everything in the GHB, so a lot could change in regards to which units are viable and which aren't.

[Keilerei]

IDK -  Pretty good I guess. Sadly Namarti will still not be very viable. But everything else is super fine. Sharks beeing monsters and having access to their rampage stuff ist neat. Maybe you could argue their damage output will be less effektive, due to coherency and not beeing able to stack Volti buff (which was braindead anyway) but eels are still good in smaller units. But I dont play them a lot.

Orruk Warclans - "What have they done to my boys?" joke aside, it feels like we were hit pretty hard. Our base size and short attack range on our normal infantry (e.g. Ardboys and non-spear Orruks) can be a problem, as well as reinforcement rules makes it even harder to consider taking them. Your are also not able to stack buffs on maybe your big block of spearboys anymore having them on a 5+ all the time, does not make them attractive. We are also losing our Mighty Destroyer spam, which hurts a lot. And lastly, we lose all of our battalions, no Gorefist, no Kunnin Rukk and no Ironfist.... But Mawkrusha got better, should they stay at their current points, they are excellent, and maybe Brutes will be supperior to Ardboys, finally!

[Frowny]

Ogors- Gluttons are hurt by both the reinforcement range and big bases + coherency. Ironguts do OK. The big monsters and especially the frostlord on stonehorn benefit a lot. We used to have basically no useful command abilities, but now have several, and also gain both heroic and monstrous actions. The whole faction is hurt by everyone else gaining extra objectives for monsters and multiwound units. No longer will be undisputed kings of objectives. 4 wound gluttons counting as 2 is barely an improvement over regular lists with 5 wound models counting as 2.....

Cities of Sigmar Pistoliers-I played tempest eye with the battalion and mass pistoliers for retreat+shoot+charge. Loss of battalions hurt this a ton, as this was a key part of it. The coherency rules also hurt them, since even though with their guns they will still do most of their damage, a lot of pistoliers utility was in tagging multiple units on corners to pin things, which they can't do. . Note that I think in general CoS did well, just my specific build seems basically dead. Sad because I just spent a lot of time painting them all nicely. I might try it to see if the new command abilities give it some legs, but seems likely to be dead on arrival

Sylvaneth- Still likely terrible, but mostly because the allegiance ability is still basically useless. In terms of actual changes, they may fare OK. The new command abilities are ages better than what we already had, so thats good. I think treelords, treelord ancients, durthu and drycha all get a buff as monster-heroes. Dryads do OK with their 2 inch reach, and kurnoths are fine in 3's or 6's with scythes, so should be fine. + 1 to save on them is excellent with the built in rerolls too. Still limited by their terrible allegiance and suballegience abilities, but at least I'm somewhat optimistic about how the actual book will go. New lists will likely be MSU tree reveants backed by hero monsters and kurnoth hunters.

Nighthaunt- Ahh how the lowest got even lower. An army reliant on blocks of infantry on 32 mm bases or bigger are just hit so hard- reinforcement points mean you can't take more than a few actual units, and coherency means they will never fight anything anyway. Most lists took what would now be 8-10 reinforcement points worth of units. No worthwhile monsters, and even the heroes are pretty bad in melee so don't benefit much from heroic actions. Nothing can use the +1 save. They have needed a rewrite for a while, but this just seals it. Clearly bigtime losers to an already losing faction.

 

Honestly not too pleased overall. CoS pistoliers is likely killed before I can really play it in person. Ogors seems likely to will reward the thing that was already good (ogor monsters) without adding diversity (better gluttons) but are at least playble, Sylvaneth might see new life but are still limited by terrible allegiance abilities that just don't make them feel like they play like sylvaneth, and nighthaunt then a dead horse that is further pummeled into a bloody mulch. I might turn the pistoliers into soulblight blood knights since all of my pistoliers are converted brettonian knights anyway. 

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, AaronWilson said:

Seraphon - think will be fine

Ironjawz - think will be fine

Tzeentch - think will be fine

think I'll be fine 

Skaven- I think I now have the chance to beat all of those armies:

yes-yes fear-fear the sixty man unit of clanrats.

and I will fear-fear- your possible unkillable (for now and as long as you have cp) pink horrors blocks of 30.

[Popisdead]

16 hours ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

Beasts of Chaos have always been bad. It's our thing. The editions may roll on but we're an unchanging constant, with a legacy of suckage that hearkens back to the World-That-Was.

The unsung, uncelebrated servants of Chaos.

This is depressingly true.  In the stories BoC have been the fodder that dies in droves and doesn't really matter since they are just there to be narrative.  In terms of lore matching game play GW has made sure the army matched this for the 18 years I've played them.

[readercolin]

So to look at the armies that I have:

Cities of Sigmar.  This one is a real mixed bag.  Winners are things like the hallowheart wizard spam lists, and it is a lot easier to get endless spells going now.  Lists built around some of the big monsters are also winners (phoenix's, dragons, griffons).  Additionally, the fact that many other lists required building around battalions and cities didn't really have any good ones is a bonus for the cities, as it levels the playing field a little bit.  That being said - there are some clear losers as well.  Anyone who was running 40 blocks of freeguild guard are going to be sad (and freeguild guard in general are just sad as well due to the limits on +hit buffs), and handgunners are going to be sad able to make use of the Freeguild General's bonus to hit.  I am also curious how they are going to rule on the Scourgerunner Chariot, because they ruled it doesn't get its leader bonus unless it is in units of 3 now, and now you can take 2 units of 3 in your whole army if you give up on all other reinforced units.  Overall, cities as a whole will probably be fine, but individual people's builds are probably shot now.

Stormcast Eternals.  Another mixed bag.  On the upside, new units, and everyone else losing battalions (while stormcast battalions... were rather poor) helps even the playing field.  Stormcast also generally liked to be taken as MSU anyways as well.  However, there are a number of downsides as well.  The two competitive lists are broken (starcast and shootcast).  Shootcast is broken because you can no longer take blocks of 9 vanguard raptors, and splitting them into 2 units doesn't help either as you can't issue the shoot command in the hero phase twice.  Starcast is broken because a big part of its appeal was being able to shove a bunch of +save bonuses on a stardrake so that it lives long enough to affect the table, and now it can't get more than +1.  For more general units, Evocators (foot and kitty riders) are now sad about the coherency changes, and Desolaters need a whole new warscroll as they got bonuses for how many models were in the unit... and they now can't take more than 4 models.  However, with the new models coming and a new chamber opened, at least stormcast are going to get a new book soon, so everything should work out in the end.

Slaves to Darkness.  These guys were hit hard.  A lot of the power of slaves was worked into being able to drop in battalions and use them in other god armies.  For the other God armies, I have a feeling that something will happen to allow them to continue to be used in their armies (it was like half their gimmic anyways).  For the battalions, well, good luck.  For more individual units, Chaos Warriors are hit hard by this change, as they really wanted to be run in big blocks but are now hamstrung by both coherency rules AND reinforcement rules.  Knights are now unplayable in blocks of 10 (not that they were particularly playable before either).  However, now you can run a block of 60 marauders, which should be hilarious to see sometime.  As for the monsters, not many of StD's monsters were particularly playable in the first place, but maybe now you'll see more manticores running about.  However, the biggest benefit for StD is the new surplus of command points - they used to be a CP starved list that really wanted to use a ton, and now they are going to get double to triple the CP's, which is going to drastically improve their play patterns.

Moving on to armies that I have collected pieces of (primarily to include with my cities):

Sylvaneth.  As long as the breaking terrain features leaves the trees still as wyldwoods to benefit from unit warscroll abilities, sylvaneth seem to be coming out ahead with these changes.  Yes, you can no longer dryad spam, but that wasn't that great a list in the first place anyways.  But bringing some treelords/durthu/allarielle/drycha there are some significant benefits from the new hero/monster tables.  Kurnoth Hunters aren't huge fans of the coherency changes, but at least they only really got taken in blocks of 6 with scythes, which had 2" reach anyways.  However, none of this really helps as far as bringing them in as allies of the cities, because a lot of their features still require wyldwoods anyways.

Kharadron Overlords.  Boats are still good, and the army was frequently taken as MSU anyways.  The reinforcement points aren't a huge impact, as you generally were still building around being able to put units on boats in the first place.  However, losing their battalions does suck, and the lack of monsters in the army is doing them no favors either.  The smaller board sizes also mean less room to run around.  As far as allies for the cities, bringing a boat or two can still be quite good for Tempest eye anyways, especially if you keep the boats near a hurricanum.  The rest of the units kind of suffer as allies though, and you would probably be better to take cities units instead.

Lumineth Realm Lords.  Were you taking an army spamming archers/spearmen with a few hero's?  Yeah, the reinforcement points are going to get you.  Were you bringing Teclis and his pals?  Great, your army is fine.  For the most part, Lumineth suffer from the reinforcement points changes, and that is about it.  Everything else they are either fine with, or it doesn't really affect them.  As far as bringing them as allies in the cities, well, you can no longer bring a block of 30 archers.  For every other unit that you would consider bringing though, you are coming out about the same or ahead though.

[Sonnenspeer]

1 hour ago, Keilerei said:

IDK -  Pretty good I guess. Sadly Namarti will still not be very viable. But everything else is super fine. Sharks beeing monsters and having access to their rampage stuff ist neat. Maybe you could argue their damage output will be less effektive, due to coherency and not beeing able to stack Volti buff (which was braindead anyway) but eels are still good in smaller units. But I dont play them a lot.

With  BR Morathi Allopexes lost the monsters keyword.

Impact on the turtle cover aura is something that hurts a little. But to be honest it was just too powerful after the Warscroll change. 

 

[Koala]

Hmmm... Let me see

 

Tzeentch: still too strong. 

BoC: was considered quite weak, got hit hard by the changes. What else is new?

StD: still weird. But i am sure something something powercombo will turn up. The army has so many mismatched rules and units, this is bound to Happen.

Slaanesh: hmmmm .. 

I do not know. The rules are fine but the new battletome famously had almost everything too expensive. Also fine, i guess?

 

 

 

 

[feadair]

12 hours ago, readercolin said:

Stormcast Eternals.  Another mixed bag.  On the upside, new units, and everyone else losing battalions (while stormcast battalions... were rather poor) helps even the playing field.  Stormcast also generally liked to be taken as MSU anyways as well.  However, there are a number of downsides as well.  The two competitive lists are broken (starcast and shootcast).  Shootcast is broken because you can no longer take blocks of 9 vanguard raptors, and splitting them into 2 units doesn't help either as you can't issue the shoot command in the hero phase twice.  Starcast is broken because a big part of its appeal was being able to shove a bunch of +save bonuses on a stardrake so that it lives long enough to affect the table, and now it can't get more than +1.  For more general units, Evocators (foot and kitty riders) are now sad about the coherency changes, and Desolaters need a whole new warscroll as they got bonuses for how many models were in the unit... and they now can't take more than 4 models.  However, with the new models coming and a new chamber opened, at least stormcast are going to get a new book soon, so everything should work out in the end.

I play Anvilstrike and agree that Vanguard Raptors maxing at 6 is very rough. A tiny nitpick though: I do not think Evocators (either on foot or on Dracolines) will care much. The grandstaves have a 2 inch reach, which will fix the issue completely for foot Evocators and render it pretty trivial for those on Dracolines. 

[Skreech Verminking]

Well about the skaven.

Although already mentioning how amazing these edition could be for them, it might all depend on the min. Size for all of the unit in that faction.

clanrats are currently at a unit min. Soze of 20, alwping the skaven to field them at units of 60 (although only twice).

should the min. Size be reduced to 10, this could become a huge nerf for them.

halve of their allegiance would be instantly useless.

considering that they really need more then 30 models, to be able to at least get the buff for 1-2 turns.

it would aslo just hamper with the horde fluff of the skaven.

being able to only take 2 inits of 30 clanrats, would basically mean the loss of every horde army, which would be extremely sad.

So here is me hoping that all horde units on the skaven army, that being sold as units of 20 in shop, will get an increase by ten models in their min. Size,

yet, I would really like it, if Stormvermin and plague monks, can only be taken in max. Units of 40, since from a fluff perspective, they are less numerous then their fellow clan buddies, yet more hordy then most other elite or basic troop choices of other factions.

 

[overtninja]

My CoS Living City force looks like it's getting some leg-ups with the decreased unit sizes overall, the additional command points to use, and the MSU style I tend to favor with the army. Also, the new edition being based largely in Ghur is great because that's where I've based my Wanderers anyway! I look forward to having my Rangers be great monster hunters.

Also, the smaller board might actually help me out, since ambushing from the sides of a smaller board is overall stronger! So good stuff there, also. Also, I really like the new Core Battalions, it means I'll be able to reap maximum benefit from having so many drops by fielding multiple battalions with special abilities and other such!

My Sylvaneth are gonna have a field day because I play Dreadwood monster mash and my list seems to be in line with how GW seems to want you to build lists - big monsters, smaller groups of elites and core units. It's gonna be fun, and since I was a smarty and built 6 Scythe Kurnoth, I don't even have to change that! Also, looking forward to using the new Wyldwood rules and improved Alarielle, who won't see play below 1500 (edit: at 740 she's just under the limit, so I might end up wrapping some lists around her!) but should be great fun to play with!

I haven't even build my Lumineth yet but they seem like they'll be just fine for the new edition, given they were written with 3.0 in mind. I'm looking forward to building lists and building them up (though I need to buy thesecond round of models anyway).

In all, it's looking pretty good and I'm excited to play the new edition once my club opens up again!

Edited June 17, 2021 by overtninja

[SentinelGuy]

5 hours ago, overtninja said:

My CoS Living City force looks like it's getting some leg-ups with the decreased unit sizes overall, the additional command points to use, and the MSU style I tend to favor with the army. Also, the new edition being based largely in Ghur is great because that's where I've based my Wanderers anyway! I look forward to having my Rangers be great monster hunters.

Also, the smaller board might actually help me out, since ambushing from the sides of a smaller board is overall stronger! So good stuff there, also. Also, I really like the new Core Battalions, it means I'll be able to reap maximum benefit from having so many drops by fielding multiple battalions with special abilities and other such!

My Sylvaneth are gonna have a field day because I play Dreadwood monster mash and my list seems to be in line with how GW seems to want you to build lists - big monsters, smaller groups of elites and core units. It's gonna be fun, and since I was a smarty and built 6 Scythe Kurnoth, I don't even have to change that! Also, looking forward to using the new Wyldwood rules and improved Alarielle, who won't see play below 1500 (edit: at 740 she's just under the limit, so I might end up wrapping some lists around her!) but should be great fun to play with!

I haven't even build my Lumineth yet but they seem like they'll be just fine for the new edition, given they were written with 3.0 in mind. I'm looking forward to building lists and building them up (though I need to buy thesecond round of models anyway).

In all, it's looking pretty good and I'm excited to play the new edition once my club opens up again!

Living City can only choose the life realm. I was having a talk with a mate earlier and we thought that only Excelsis will be able to use the battalions in the Generals Handbook as they are based in Ghur.  

Edited June 17, 2021 by SentinelGuy

[Chickenbits]

My 6 Stonehorns list will sadly have to ditch one of its huskards... but I get 40 gnoblars instead. So there's that.

[Doko]

Citys got random nerfs as 15 to darkshards or 15 togyrobomber that nobody never have used but the best unit of the tome was buffed(demigryps 5 points) but we lost one of our alegiances for no reason(empowered endless spells) i hope the faq fix it and give us a new alegiance

[Saturmorn Carvilli]

I did a quick list build for my S2D.  The points didn't really go up much for the things I use from the points as they are listed in my Battletome.  Foot Heroes went up 5, but I don't think the Karakadrak Lord returned to 250.  So in terms of points I don't have to remove anything.  However, with Chaos Warriors being bought in blocks of 10 instead of 5, I either have to go up to 20 or down to 10. Unless their re-roll saves applies all the time (and maybe even if does), I don't think 10 Warriors is going to cut it.  I found that those first 6 warriors with their re-roll save allows them to weather early game when everything is at full strength and really hit hard.  However, going with two groups of 20 means cutting back on my two groups of 10 (probably broken into MSU) Chaos Knights have to be trimmed back, or I can't take my Chaos Shrine. Twenty Warriors also means potentially a lot of lost damage generation.  Which my  army is already super low at creating.

I know I should try and keep the shrine over most everything else, at the same time that really throws off the symmetry of my army.  I know one of my opponents liked playing 2500 points in 2nd ed.  I might make my S2D my 2500 point army.

[Gailon]

Based on the internet every army is worse, so I guess mine is fine? 

I'm glad that the rules and points have brought some serious balance to Seraphon. Playing Seraphon in a friendly environment has been a bummer. I need to make a list that isn't overpowered, and when I win the question is "did I bring an OP list?" Now I feel like I will finally be able to craft the best list I can make and have a fun and competitive game. 

I'm bummed for saurus warriors though. They were already bad an neglected, even saurus lists played knights instead. So they decreased the unit size and increased the points by more than they increased skinks. the age of the carnosaur has arrived. 

[KrispyXIV]

4 minutes ago, Gailon said:

Based on the internet every army is worse, so I guess mine is fine? 

I'm glad that the rules and points have brought some serious balance to Seraphon. Playing Seraphon in a friendly environment has been a bummer. I need to make a list that isn't overpowered, and when I win the question is "did I bring an OP list?" Now I feel like I will finally be able to craft the best list I can make and have a fun and competitive game. 

I'm bummed for saurus warriors though. They were already bad an neglected, even saurus lists played knights instead. So they decreased the unit size and increased the points by more than they increased skinks. the age of the carnosaur has arrived. 

Same.  I haven't legitimately lost a game yet with Daughters in my playgroup, it will be nice to have to actually push in order to win.

I do wish that some units like Witches hadn't been hit so hard, for no apparent reason... but still, it will be good for my opponents to not feel like they're slogging uphill all game.

[Fred1245]

47 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

Same.  I haven't legitimately lost a game yet with Daughters in my playgroup, it will be nice to have to actually push in order to win.

I do wish that some units like Witches hadn't been hit so hard, for no apparent reason... but still, it will be good for my opponents to not feel like they're slogging uphill all game.

That's more a problem with your opponents than the army. DoK got hit almost as hard by their new book as Slaanesh did outside of Morathi and Blood Stalkers. If people are still struggling against the Blood Stalker, Blood Sister, Morathi, Screens combo everyone's been running since the Witch Brew nerf, that's on them.