Cities of Sigmar in AoS 3

[flamingwalnut]

Not sure why people think the Dawnbringer Crusades are going to erase Cities of Sigmar. They come from Cities to make more Cities. It's an expansion and also a MAJOR way to cement the common Cities into lore.

And it also helps to explain the dwarf book, too. We don't have a major city in Chamon. But Grungni is building something IN Chamon. So it stands fo reason that that becomes a new city with a HEAVY duardin focus, maybe even putting in something like KOs Barak Thryng to include all Duardin.

I would almost bet my army that there will be another Cities of Simar book (MAYBE with a name change) and it'll have the additional Cities in as well; Lethis, Excelsis, Settler's Gain, Misthaven, Grungni's Karak. Hell, maybe even Har Kuron as Morathi is still a "lesser of two evils" to Sigmar.

I do agree, unsouping armies is a big deal and can and will ****** people off. But they have no reason to actually do so! Sure, Nighthaunt got finally removed from Soulblight, but that was ONE small piece and already had a book to go to. They also can still ally. 

Maybe I am wrong, but while I do believe the rumors to have truth to them (united duardin, kurnothi, shadow elves) I think they will either work with Cities or be SUPER different.

[Ciliegioinfiore]

Guys what do you think about gotrek’s point reduction? Any suggestions for a 1000 points list based on him?

[SentinelGuy]

2 hours ago, Ciliegioinfiore said:

Guys what do you think about gotrek’s point reduction? Any suggestions for a 1000 points list based on him?

I've not fielded him myself (I have a weird aversion to expensive heroes that I just can't shake), but I think having emerald lifeswarm nearby makes him rock solid, and it's now even easier to cast in a CoS list thanks to the errata. You'll want some cheap chaff like aetherlings, dreadspears, corsairs or freeguild with shields, and some fast moving objective grabbers and counter punchers like wild riders or shadow warriors. Get some solid ranged units in there - irondrakes or sisters of the watch with a supporting hero.

Edited July 4, 2021 by SentinelGuy

[BabaYaga667]

Not sure if this is the right place to post about this (I'm new to the website and this is my first post lol) but I wanted some feedback on a Settlers Gain list I have been working on for 3.0. I have been playing Living City and I really want some Lumineth in my army and this was the best way I could think to do it. Here is the list. 

Annointed (General) 
    Command Trait: Strategic Mastermind 

Yndrasta, the Celestial Spear 
  Artifact: Blade of Leaping Bronze 

Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Mage 
  Artifact: Silver Plated Wand 

10x Phoenix Guard (Battleline) 
10x Phoenix Guard (Battleline) 
10x Phoenix Guard (Battleline) 
10x Sisters of the Watch 
10x Vanari Auralan Sentinels 
10x Vanari Auralan Sentinels 
10x Judicators 

 

Total 1995/2000 

 

The strategy behind the army is to use the Celestial Hurricanum to buff the sentinels and the Judicators giving them all plus 1 to hit. Using the 24" and 30" ranges on the Sentials and Judicators should be able to provide decent missile support to the Melee troops. The Sisters are incredibly deadly when they don't move shooting 21 shots and doing mortal wounds on 6's. I can't find anywhere that says Yndrasta is a named character so I equpped her with an artifact that will give her 2 extra attacks on her main melee weapon. The Hurricanum will also be able to cast 2 spells and have plus 2 to all casting rolls. It will also give the sentinels plus one to cast their power of hysh spells. The Phoenix Guard are great in combat as they have a 4 up ward and also do 21 attacks in one unit. Yndrasta also makes it to where they wont have to take battle shock while in 12 " range of her..

 

 

[Zeblasky]

So, while we wait for FAQ on overwatch, it seems that due to 6.1 rule and warscrolls precedence over core rules, by RAW Sisters and Handgunners can Unleash Hell every time anyone charges near them. While it's unclear, if you can use actual UH CA only before the first overwatch gets triggered or at any time, I've decided to do some theorycrafting just for fun.

Enter 3.0 Handgunners. For the cost their damage is quite low (Irondrakes do ~30% more damage base and can be buffed much better), so their viability boils down to 2 strategies - MSU units with Long Rifles acting as pseudo Sentinels and blocks of 30 roleplaying as Prussian Musketeers. Let's try the latter and see what we can do.

Save	Handgunners attack without moving or double overwatch	Handgunners double overwatch with Hurricanum	Handgunners shooting with General CA	Handgunners double overwatch with General CA	Handgunners double overwatch with General and Hurricanum
2+	4.59	6.89	5.74	8.61	11.48
3+	6.89	10.33	8.61	12.92	17.22
4+	9.19	13.78	11.48	17.22	22.96
5+	11.48	17.22	14.35	21.53	28.7
6+	13.78	20.67	17.22	25.83	34.44
-	13.78	20.67	17.22	25.83	34.44

First is simply how much damage Handgunners can do with a single unbuffed volley while standing still. Their double overwatch on 5+/3+ does the same damage as a single 3+/3+, so for a price of a single CP you can basically shoot another volley at approaching enemy. Solid, but not that impressive.

Second example is when Handgunners are supported with Hurricanum. First of all, Handgunners only lose +1 to hit when moving, so Hurricanum support gives them complete freedom of movement (unless they face debuffs to hit of course), which is quite important for them. Second, their double overwatch starts hitting on 4+, giving them much more damage output when charged.

Third and fourth examples are when Handgunners get supported with a General CA. For it they need to stay still all the time, so you either have to stay in your deployment zone or you can activate this strategy only turn 2. But for support resources invested it's the cheapest one, only 100 points and 1 CP. But if your Freeguild General get sniped, this strategy falls apart at your next Hero Phase. And investing in the backup General feels a bit too much.

Now the last variant is the max possible stacking of to hit and to wound buffs for Handgunners close range overwatch. You get 330 points of support units near, you keep them still, you spend a CP on a General CA, and now every volley of them hits like in a third example, on a 3+/2+. And, considering that you hit everyone who's charging you every time they charge... well, it's would be an almost unbreakable caste. 

So, in my mind, the most optimal strategy would be to run 2x30 Handgunners with Hurricanum or General. First variant is very mobile, while second yields higher reward for less cost, if you manage to pull it off in time. Stacking them both yields much greater reward in overwatch department, but at the same time, it would be a immobile blob of 960 poins in the middle of the table. And yes, this is hard counter charge strategy, any decent shooting versus them, and Handgunners will start to drop like flies.

P.S. While all this is quite overpowered right now, I fear that Handgunners will become completely obsolete if their Warscroll overwatch will be limited to 1 per turn together with Unleash hell. They are extremely reliant on it. And, well, if GW fixes their overwatch to work almost as it used to, all this math and theorycrafting will be quite relevant.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Zeblasky

[Zeblasky]

3 hours ago, BabaYaga667 said:

Not sure if this is the right place to post about this (I'm new to the website and this is my first post lol) but I wanted some feedback on a Settlers Gain list I have been working on for 3.0. I have been playing Living City and I really want some Lumineth in my army and this was the best way I could think to do it. Here is the list. 

Annointed (General) 
    Command Trait: Strategic Mastermind 

Yndrasta, the Celestial Spear 
  Artifact: Blade of Leaping Bronze 

Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Mage 
  Artifact: Silver Plated Wand 

10x Phoenix Guard (Battleline) 
10x Phoenix Guard (Battleline) 
10x Phoenix Guard (Battleline) 
10x Sisters of the Watch 
10x Vanari Auralan Sentinels 
10x Vanari Auralan Sentinels 
10x Judicators 

 

Total 1995/2000 

 

The strategy behind the army is to use the Celestial Hurricanum to buff the sentinels and the Judicators giving them all plus 1 to hit. Using the 24" and 30" ranges on the Sentials and Judicators should be able to provide decent missile support to the Melee troops. The Sisters are incredibly deadly when they don't move shooting 21 shots and doing mortal wounds on 6's. I can't find anywhere that says Yndrasta is a named character so I equpped her with an artifact that will give her 2 extra attacks on her main melee weapon. The Hurricanum will also be able to cast 2 spells and have plus 2 to all casting rolls. It will also give the sentinels plus one to cast their power of hysh spells. The Phoenix Guard are great in combat as they have a 4 up ward and also do 21 attacks in one unit. Yndrasta also makes it to where they wont have to take battle shock while in 12 " range of her..
 

Ahah, the part about Yndrasta not being a named character is funny, but it will be fixed in the next FAQ most likely. Using Hurricanum as a casting buff piece for Lumineth units would be quite a smart idea, but it buffs casting only for Collegiate Arcane Wizards. However Hurricanum itself gets +2 to casts here, so giving it a wand is a good idea. As the build itself... well, you do have a bit of everything and an aura of +1 to hit, which will be crucial for missile pieces. That aura has quite a small radious however, and you do want Hurricanum to be in range for shooting and casting.

Don't forget that now you can add some core or battlepack batalions in your build for free and get some nice bonuses from them.

[flamingwalnut]

10 hours ago, Ciliegioinfiore said:

Guys what do you think about gotrek’s point reduction? Any suggestions for a 1000 points list based on him?

Honestly, he seems sooo much better, but he still has his weaknesses. 1000 points is still a low game to have him, as he will need support and still can only cover so much ground... 

Emerald Lifeswarm being able to be controlled and moving more is AMAZING for him. We still have the Ghur Battlemage to give bonuses to run and charge.

On the other hand, Cogs no longer buffs his regular movement and he still costs a LOT. I think he is really worth it, but still needs to be built around and needs to supplement a force instead of be the only hammer in it, so bigger points are better, IMO. 

[BabaYaga667]

2 hours ago, Zeblasky said:

Ahah, the part about Yndrasta not being a named character is funny, but it will be fixed in the next FAQ most likely. Using Hurricanum as a casting buff piece for Lumineth units would be quite a smart idea, but it buffs casting only for Collegiate Arcane Wizards. However Hurricanum itself gets +2 to casts here, so giving it a wand is a good idea. As the build itself... well, you do have a bit of everything and an aura of +1 to hit, which will be crucial for missile pieces. That aura has quite a small radious however, and you do want Hurricanum to be in range for shooting and casting.

Don't forget that now you can add some core or battlepack batalions in your build for free and get some nice bonuses from them.

Thanks for the tips! And I will use some core battalions for further boosting the army. I just wanted to make sure it was a viable list. I am also sad that it is likely that Yndrasta won't be able to have 2 more attacks. She would incredibly deadly with that. 

[insomniaftw]

Yndrasta can't take an artifact in Settler's gain. All of the artifacts are labeled Collegiate Arcane Heroes only. Sorry to be the artifact bearer of bad news. 

Or did that get fixed somewhere?

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

7 hours ago, Zeblasky said:

So, while we wait for FAQ on overwatch, it seems that due to 6.1 rule and warscrolls precedence over core rules, by RAW Sisters and Handgunners can Unleash Hell every time anyone charges near them.

I like your analysis, but I really don't think we really get around the combination of these two rules:

Quote

FAQ Stand and Shoot:

‘If an enemy unit finishes a charge move within 3" of this unit, this unit can receive the Unleash Hell command without the command being issued and without a command point being spent.’

Core rules Command Abilities:

A model cannot issue more than 1 command in the same phase and a unit cannot receive more than 1
command in the same phase.

Even with the reasoning that the FAQ is more specific and therefor should take precedence, I think it would have to say something along the lines of "This unit can receive the Unleash Hell command even if it already received other commands in this phase" for there to really be a case.

Personally, until there is clarification from GW, I will play the "medium strength" version of Stand and Shoot, where Handgunners get to overwatch for free, but another unit also gets to overwatch if you pay a command point. I think that's probably the most powerful version of the rule that I can get my friends to go along with, haha.

[Bozly]

Hey whats been the current tournament list for cities? Is it still a phoenix guard anchor with 30 irondrake bridge?

[Marcvs]

13 hours ago, Zeblasky said:

So, while we wait for FAQ on overwatch, it seems that due to 6.1 rule and warscrolls precedence over core rules, by RAW Sisters and Handgunners can Unleash Hell every time anyone charges near them. While it's unclear, if you can use actual UH CA only before the first overwatch gets triggered or at any time, I've decided to do some theorycrafting just for fun

Just as an heads up: before anyone builds a list / buys models on the basis of this interpretation, they should take a look at the discussion in the other topic to appreciate how this is far from clear cut.

 

 

[Zeblasky]

9 hours ago, BabaYaga667 said:

Thanks for the tips! And I will use some core battalions for further boosting the army. I just wanted to make sure it was a viable list. I am also sad that it is likely that Yndrasta won't be able to have 2 more attacks. She would incredibly deadly with that. 

Well, Yndrasta is still incredibly undercosted. But not because of her damage, Dreadlord on a dragon does around the same damage as her (more with a good breath attack), but because of her utility. She's tanky, gives battleshock immunity, debuffs Monsters and heals Stormcast. By the way, I'd say that pairing her up with a frontline unit of Stormcast or two would be quite decent as well.

By the way, if you as you can easily take up to 3 artefacts here (1 generic, 2 from Settles Gain, if you take a right core batalion), you could really use Amulet of Destiny with a General on a Griffon or a Dreadlord. Having a single good monster with 5+ ward could be nice with new Rampages.

But the biggest advice I've missed is that you could really use Emerald Lifeswarm (or any other Endless Spell) in your  army. While Hurricanum is by no means tanky, it's still a 11 wounds 4+ save wizard, that you you can keep away from harm. And due to the new rules and your army, it can summon any endless spell with a +3 bonus to cast, making Emerald Swarm very reliable. And if you really want to maximise healing, you can dispell in your next hero phase with Annointed to summon it again for the 2d3 heals in that turn (Emerald Lifeswarm heals both when it sets up and when it moves).

 

 

1 hour ago, Marcvs said:

Just as an heads up: before anyone builds a list / buys models on the basis of this interpretation, they should take a look at the discussion in the other topic to appreciate how this is far from clear cut.

Yep. It's contoversial feature and FAQ will undoutebly change this situation somewhat soon. But, knowing GW, you'll still have enough time to abuse a tournament or two with it x)

[Doko]

I dont think you can abuse tournament with it,because every tournament gonna rule it as unleash hell done when u use the sisters or gunners so you wont can get two.

I know it is stupid and a huge unnecesary nerf,but as it is written 

[Hoseman]

Hi all. I wanted to make a nice elf cities army. I know that dispossessed, free people, gyrobombers and luminark are "top tier" so as hallowheart but as I said I want to focus on elfs. I don't have apps and don't know how to calculate % so I wanted to ask what are the best units on each function.

 I know phoenix guard are so good but leaving them out this are my thoughts:

 - Leaders. Nomad prince I think its OK, sorcerer normal, scourge bad, dragonlord medium to bad, dragon sorcerer don't know. Anointed cool. Phoenix cool support

 - lines. Eternal guard good. Bleakswords, dreadspears bad. 

 - elite. Black guard cool, executioners medium, wildwood rangers medium. 

- fast. Nothing good, drakespawn knights maybe good, sisters of the thorn cool supports.

- ranged. Shadow warriors cool, sisters of the watch medium cool. 

 Am I missing something? Am I correct?? What do you think of elfs for competitive or at least semi-competitive?  

 

[zilberfrid]

10 minutes ago, Hoseman said:

Hi all. I wanted to make a nice elf cities army. I know that dispossessed, free people, gyrobombers and luminark are "top tier" so as hallowheart but as I said I want to focus on elfs. I don't have apps and don't know how to calculate % so I wanted to ask what are the best units on each function.

 I know phoenix guard are so good but leaving them out this are my thoughts:

 - Leaders. Nomad prince I think its OK, sorcerer normal, scourge bad, dragonlord medium to bad, dragon sorcerer don't know. Anointed cool. Phoenix cool support

 - lines. Eternal guard good. Bleakswords, dreadspears bad. 

 - elite. Black guard cool, executioners medium, wildwood rangers medium. 

- fast. Nothing good, drakespawn knights maybe good, sisters of the thorn cool supports.

- ranged. Shadow warriors cool, sisters of the watch medium cool. 

 Am I missing something? Am I correct?? What do you think of elfs for competitive or at least semi-competitive?  

 

In the mortal wounds meta, especially considering how they are not hindered by a double line, Phoenix Guard are your elves in the Elite department. They are both defensively and offensively good. Bleakswords are chaff, but relatively quick, and can be munch for Sorceress as well.

Sisters of the Watch are good ranged options. Have been, will be. Shadow warriors are more specialized, but can be very good in some situations.

If you bring a Sorceress, bring her a snack. Preferably a cheap one, Dreadspears, Bleakswords or Darkshards.

Dark Riders are not bad, save 4 cav with very good speed and some range, though Drakespawn look better and are tankier, Sisters of the Thorn are 10 wound fast unbind or dispellers with some extra utility.

 

[SentinelGuy]

To be honest, most of the bad units are only terrible some of the time.

Dreadspears and corsairs are excellent chaff units for a very low cost. They're faster than Freeguild and comparable in price. Eternal guard are the best non-elite line infantry, but that comes at a premium price and their buffs require them to stand still. With the objective game being so important now and the cost of everything going up, I think eternals are probably too expensive for such a static unit. 

You're forgetting wild riders, the best cavalry in the book. Small footprint, hit hard and move like lighting. They're fragile, but also super cheap. These guys are a total sleeper unit in 3rd edition.

Even the hated Fleetmaster gets some love in this edition. He's still about as much use as a wet blanket in combat, but he has the ability to take the arcane tome artefact, which makes him potentially our cheapest and toughest elf wizard. If you have limited points available, need an extra leader, and have an artefact slot free, he's the best we have. The 3+ save against shooting makes him more resilient than anything else in that points range.

Scourge runner chariots - cheap blocker, useful to fill out battalions, fast objective grabber.

 

[SentinelGuy]

Another point on the Fleetmaster - he's at his best in Hallowheart with the access to 2 spells a turn, but don't disregard his use as a general's adjutant in other cities. His price makes him easy to squeeze in if you have a general on foot and need a cheap follower to help get CPs.

[Hoseman]

So lots of thanks @SentinelGuy and @zilberfrid I'm trying to make a list for a battle in a few days. I don't wanna use phoenix guard or abuse it cause its expensive and the battle is at 1500p (and my friend hates them ^^).

 So I will use your advices and make a list to try things. Wild riders, sisters of the watch, drakespawn knights... a fast army with some ranged to let's see what happens. I wanted to use monsters but maybe they don't fit. 

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Black Ark Fleetmaster (70)
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
Nomad Prince (110)
- General
Sorceress (95)

Battleline
10 x Wild Riders (240)
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Sisters of the Watch (180)
10 x Sisters of the Watch (180)
5 x Sisters of the Thorn (130)

Units
10 x Black Ark Corsairs (85)
- Vicious Blade & Repeater Handbow
10 x Drakespawn Knights (250)
- Reinforced x 1
2 x Scourgerunner Chariots (160)
- Reinforced x 1

Total: 1500 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 107
 

Edited July 5, 2021 by Hoseman

[zilberfrid]

One thing, your sorceress will go hungry. She needs Coven food for that sweet +2 to casting rolls.

I'm not sure how best to fix that, but possibly lose a Wild Riders for a unit of Darkshards

[BabaYaga667]

16 hours ago, insomniaftw said:

Yndrasta can't take an artifact in Settler's gain. All of the artifacts are labeled Collegiate Arcane Heroes only. Sorry to be the artifact bearer of bad news. 

Or did that get fixed somewhere?

You can put an extra artifact on a Collegiate Arcane or Freegiuld hero. I don't see anything restricting other heroes from taking an artifact. 
 

"You can choose 1 extra SETTLER’S GAIN FREEGUILD HERO or SETTLER’S GAIN COLLEGIATE ARCANE HERO to have an artefact of power in a Settler’s Gain army. In addition, you can add 1 to casting rolls for SETTLER’S GAIN COLLEGIATE ARCANE WIZARDS." 

At least that's how I am interpreting it. 

[Eldarain]

@BabaYaga667 The restriction is listed in the Artifact list at the top.

[Zeblasky]

4 hours ago, Hoseman said:

dragonlord medium to bad, dragon sorcerer don't know.

 

Dreadlord is actually good both in Living City with crossbow, and in other Cities with shield in general. Just give him Amulet of Destiny (a generic artefact, 5+ ward), and his 14 wounds become even better at taking damage. While Sorceress on a dragon is one of the worst units in Cities sadly, useful only in some quite specific setups. When you can take Annointed on Frost Phoenix and make him a Wizard with generic artefact, why even bother with Sorceress?

[zilberfrid]

7 minutes ago, Zeblasky said:

Dreadlord is actually good both in Living City with crossbow, and in other Cities with shield in general. Just give him Amulet of Destiny (a generic artefact, 5+ ward), and his 14 wounds become even better at taking damage. While Sorceress on a dragon is one of the worst units in Cities sadly, useful only in some quite specific setups. When you can take Annointed on Frost Phoenix and make him a Wizard with generic artefact, why even bother with Sorceress?

Sorceress gets easy access to +2 to casting. Which is pretty big.

[Zeblasky]

1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

Sorceress gets easy access to +2 to casting. Which is pretty big.

Good for a foot Sorceress, but does not help much with Dragon Sorceress to be relevant. She weakens her mount with 5+ save, herself does 1 no rend damage on average, and even with Flaming weapons casted on her dragons Claws (yea, she can do that, as you can buff mounts with spells and abilities) she's simply doing around the same damage as dreadlord with Lance. Or you can cast Mystic shield on her to get her to a 4+save, when all Dreadlords (besides Living City ones) will be at 3+ by default due to Shield. But in both cases what's the point of using her Sacrifice and spell on herself (which can still fail) to still be quite weaker than Dreadlord? If she had 4+ save and 2 casts or just was ~70 points cheaper, then she could be viable, but right now it's much better to take Dreadlord and Sorceress on foot, so you'd have both the competent fighter and a good mage instead of an expensive target.

And the fact that FAQ placed her 5 points more expensive than Dreadlord without any changes to her Warscroll is the biggest joke of all here. She's weaker as a combatant, much more fragile, and her magic support is not even close to being able to compensate for that in any way.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Zeblasky