Cities of Sigmar in AoS 3

[readercolin]

11 hours ago, Zeblasky said:

But the biggest advice I've missed is that you could really use Emerald Lifeswarm (or any other Endless Spell) in your  army. While Hurricanum is by no means tanky, it's still a 11 wounds 4+ save wizard, that you you can keep away from harm. And due to the new rules and your army, it can summon any endless spell with a +3 bonus to cast, making Emerald Swarm very reliable. And if you really want to maximise healing, you can dispell in your next hero phase with Annointed to summon it again for the 2d3 heals in that turn (Emerald Lifeswarm heals both when it sets up and when it moves).

Big clarifier on this, due to rule 19.3.3, you cannot cast an endless spell that was removed from play on the same turn.

This isn't the end of the world though, because you can still get 1d3 on cast, 1d3 on movement in your hero phase, and 1d3 on movement in your opponent's hero phase (unless they dispell it)

[BabaYaga667]

4 hours ago, Eldarain said:

@BabaYaga667 The restriction is listed in the Artifact list at the top.

Now I see it. Thanks for the info! That's a bit of a bummer but I'm still not turned off from using the city

 

[zilberfrid]

5 hours ago, Zeblasky said:

Good for a foot Sorceress, but does not help much with Dragon Sorceress to be relevant. She weakens her mount with 5+ save, herself does 1 no rend damage on average, and even with Flaming weapons casted on her dragons Claws (yea, she can do that, as you can buff mounts with spells and abilities) she's simply doing around the same damage as dreadlord with Lance. Or you can cast Mystic shield on her to get her to a 4+save, when all Dreadlords (besides Living City ones) will be at 3+ by default due to Shield. But in both cases what's the point of using her Sacrifice and spell on herself (which can still fail) to still be quite weaker than Dreadlord? If she had 4+ save and 2 casts or just was ~70 points cheaper, then she could be viable, but right now it's much better to take Dreadlord and Sorceress on foot, so you'd have both the competent fighter and a good mage instead of an expensive target.

And the fact that FAQ placed her 5 points more expensive than Dreadlord without any changes to her Warscroll is the biggest joke of all here. She's weaker as a combatant, much more fragile, and her magic support is not even close to being able to compensate for that in any way.

Even with that, she's still better than the battlemage on griffin, but I misread and though footseress was also in the mix.

[Howdyhedberg]

20 hours ago, BabaYaga667 said:

You can put an extra artifact on a Collegiate Arcane or Freegiuld hero. I don't see anything restricting other heroes from taking an artifact. 
 

"You can choose 1 extra SETTLER’S GAIN FREEGUILD HERO or SETTLER’S GAIN COLLEGIATE ARCANE HERO to have an artefact of power in a Settler’s Gain army. In addition, you can add 1 to casting rolls for SETTLER’S GAIN COLLEGIATE ARCANE WIZARDS." 

At least that's how I am interpreting it.

Isn't ydrasta unique/named character and thereby can't carry artifacts? Or have they changed that in AoS 3?

Edited July 6, 2021 by Howdyhedberg

[BabaYaga667]

6 minutes ago, Howdyhedberg said:

Isn't ydrasta unique/named character and thereby can't carry artifacts? Or have they changed that in AoS 3?

I don't think she can. I have gotten 2 answers on the subject. Answer 1 is that this issue will be addressed in the next FAQ so she can currently take artifacts but not for long. The second answer is a straight up no she cannot take artifacts. Names/Unique characters can't take artifacts. I was confused because there was nothing on her warscroll that said she was a named character and usually with named characters it will say that in their description. For example if you look at Archaon's warscroll under the description it says "Archaon is a named character that is a single model. He is armed with the Slayer of Kings." It does not say this anywhere on Yndrasta's warscroll that she is a named character (unless I missed something) but I'm just gonna assume she is a named character at this point. 

[Zeblasky]

11 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

Even with that, she's still better than the battlemage on griffin, but I misread and though footseress was also in the mix.

Weell, not so sure about that. A funny thing here is that Battlemage on Griffon on average does more damage that Sorceress on a dragon in combat (so without Breath attack in consideration), and versus 6+ save he does veeeery slightly more damage than both Dreadlord and General on Griffon as well x) And he's 275 points now, and gets his +1 to cast constantly, so I'd guess for now he is better that Sorceress x)

A counter argument could be made that Sorceress is actually more useful due to having 2 CAs, one of them being unique. Both of them could be used to great effect on Black Guard, so if you have 20 or 30 of them, Sorceres on a dragon could be a good supporting pick for them. But that's pretty much it.

By the way, Dreadlord with shield and Lance on a charge still does slightly more damage than General on a Griffon with either Lance or Sword. Add Dreadlord breath attack into equation, and on average he will do more damage per round. Hovewer, General damage is quite more reliable without those 3 D6 attacks.
 

Edited July 6, 2021 by Zeblasky

[zilberfrid]

23 minutes ago, Zeblasky said:

Weell, not so sure about that. A funny thing here is that Battlemage on Griffon on average does more damage that Sorceress on a dragon in combat (so without Breath attack in consideration), and versus 6+ save he does veeeery slightly more damage than both Dreadlord and General on Griffon as well x) And he's 275 points now, and gets his +1 to cast constantly, so I'd guess for now he is better that Sorceress x)

A counter argument could be made that Sorceress is actually more useful due to having 2 CAs, one of them being unique. Both of them could be used to great effect on Black Guard, so if you have 20 or 30 of them, Sorceres on a dragon could be a good supporting pick for them. But that's pretty much it.

By the way, Dreadlord with shield and Lance on a charge still does slightly more damage than General on a Griffon with either Lance or Sword. Add Dreadlord breath attack into equation, and on average he will do more damage per round. Hovewer, General damage is quite more reliable without those 3 D6 attacks.
 

Oh, a guaranteed +1 to cast does make a difference.

Perhaps the double head will have a use other than giving Demis a different head in the future!

For both comparisons, the most important thing is that the Griffin is much more majestic than the toothy lizard.

[Zeblasky]

10 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Oh, a guaranteed +1 to cast does make a difference.

Perhaps the double head will have a use other than giving Demis a different head in the future!

For both comparisons, the most important thing is that the Griffin is much more majestic than the toothy lizard.

Well, don't forget, that when a new battlepack with a different realm will come, this bonus will once again be conditional, heh.

And yes, sadly you are right. There are no truly great dragons in AoS at this moment. When GW will finally make some good dragons, that I will like, my vallet will become one with the void though.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Zeblasky

[Howdyhedberg]

2 hours ago, BabaYaga667 said:

I don't think she can. I have gotten 2 answers on the subject. Answer 1 is that this issue will be addressed in the next FAQ so she can currently take artifacts but not for long. The second answer is a straight up no she cannot take artifacts. Names/Unique characters can't take artifacts. I was confused because there was nothing on her warscroll that said she was a named character and usually with named characters it will say that in their description. For example if you look at Archaon's warscroll under the description it says "Archaon is a named character that is a single model. He is armed with the Slayer of Kings." It does not say this anywhere on Yndrasta's warscroll that she is a named character (unless I missed something) but I'm just gonna assume she is a named character at this point. 

I see! Sounds like the loremaster in the Lumineth range. In the new ghb they removed the"unique" part, but in the FAQ they still have the part that the model is unique.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

14 hours ago, BabaYaga667 said:

I don't think she can. I have gotten 2 answers on the subject. Answer 1 is that this issue will be addressed in the next FAQ so she can currently take artifacts but not for long. The second answer is a straight up no she cannot take artifacts.

 

11 hours ago, Howdyhedberg said:

I see! Sounds like the loremaster in the Lumineth range. In the new ghb they removed the"unique" part, but in the FAQ they still have the part that the model is unique.

Her warscroll might not have her as "Unique", but the most recent pitched battle points charts in the GHB 2021 do make it clear that she is. Since that's the most recent publication, she is unique and can't take artefacts for the time being (as she probably should have been in the first place).

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

14 hours ago, Zeblasky said:

Weell, not so sure about that. A funny thing here is that Battlemage on Griffon on average does more damage that Sorceress on a dragon in combat (so without Breath attack in consideration), and versus 6+ save he does veeeery slightly more damage than both Dreadlord and General on Griffon as well x) And he's 275 points now, and gets his +1 to cast constantly, so I'd guess for now he is better that Sorceress x)

I guess if the Battlemage on Griffon is ever going to be good, it's right now while we are on the Ghur GHB, but I am still kind of not loving him.

I would say the Griffon-Mage competes with the Hurricanum and Freeguild General on Griffon for a spot in your list. The Hurricanum is competes with it for the role of a +1 to cast Collegiate Arcane wizard, but it has a better save, a good shooting attack and really good buffs. The General on Griffon competes with it for the role of melee monster, but has a better save and does more damage.

Wildform is a good spell to have, but I feel like most of the time a Battlemage on Foot can deliver that adequately. I think I would just not feel especially good paying 160 points more for the Griffon mount, since the main benefits it provides are an OK melee profile and mobility, and I don't really think I want to get into melee with a 5+ save monster that only does OK damage.

[Zeblasky]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I guess if the Battlemage on Griffon is ever going to be good, it's right now while we are on the Ghur GHB, but I am still kind of not loving him.

I would say the Griffon-Mage competes with the Hurricanum and Freeguild General on Griffon for a spot in your list. The Hurricanum is competes with it for the role of a +1 to cast Collegiate Arcane wizard, but it has a better save, a good shooting attack and really good buffs. The General on Griffon competes with it for the role of melee monster, but has a better save and does more damage.

Wildform is a good spell to have, but I feel like most of the time a Battlemage on Foot can deliver that adequately. I think I would just not feel especially good paying 160 points more for the Griffon mount, since the main benefits it provides are an OK melee profile and mobility, and I don't really think I want to get into melee with a 5+ save monster that only does OK damage.

No-no, we were not talking about their actual viability. We were talking about which of the 2 worst units in the book is better x) And Battlemage actually does almost the same or even slightly better damage that General.

Just for reference, Dreadlord with Lance on charge, General with Sword (Lance on charge for him gives .22 more damage versus 2+ save, so sword is gerenally better).

 

Save	Sorceress	Dreadlord	Battlemage	General
2+	3.7	4.85	3.78	4.22
3+	5.28	6.69	5.67	6.04
4+	6.85	8.53	7.56	7.85
5+	8.43	10.38	9.44	9.67
6+	9.28	11.04	11.33	10.89
-	9.46	11.04	11.33	10.89

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Zeblasky

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, Zeblasky said:

No-no, we were not talking about their actual viability. We were talking about which of the 2 worst units in the book is better x) And Battlemage actually does almost the same or even slightly better damage that General.

Just for reference, Dreadlord with Lance on charge, General with Sword (Lance on charge for him gives .22 more damage versus 2+ save, so sword is gerenally better).

 

Save	Sorceress	Dreadlord	Battlemage	General
2+	3.7	4.85	3.78	4.22
3+	5.28	6.69	5.67	6.04
4+	6.85	8.53	7.56	7.85
5+	8.43	10.38	9.44	9.67
6+	9.28	11.04	11.33	10.89
-	9.46	11.04	11.33	10.89

 

I get slightly different numbers on the Battlemage:

Save	griffon mage	general
2+	3.33	4.22
3+	5	6.04
4+	6.67	7.85
5+	8.33	9.67
6+	10	10.89
-	10	10.89

Not that it matters that much. The reason why I think the General is the better melee monster is that his character weapons (as opposed to the mount weapons) are better and he benefits more from artefacts and command traits. Like in Hammerhal, where he can take the Saint's Blade, one of several helpful command traits and possibly pile in and attack twice from the command ability. And he can be on a 3+ save while doing it, as opposed to the 5+ save of the Battlemage.

The General is no Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon, that's for sure, but then again he's 120 points cheaper, so I guess that's fair. He can definitely do work in certain armies, even if he's generally not the first choice for a monster.

[Zeblasky]

9 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I get slightly different numbers on the Battlemage:

Save	griffon mage	general
2+	3.33	4.22
3+	5	6.04
4+	6.67	7.85
5+	8.33	9.67
6+	10	10.89
-	10	10.89

Battlemage has exploding attacks on his Twin Beaks and it does noticeably help him. Too bad you can't help him with some rerolls now.

 

But yes, General is simply a much better fighter, so just taking him and a foot mage is quite preferable. Just like with Dreadlord amd Sorceress.

 

[SentinelGuy]

Interesting numbers.

If you had to pick a city, spell/s and artefact to make the most of the battlemage on griffon, which would you choose?

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

42 minutes ago, SentinelGuy said:

Interesting numbers.

If you had to pick a city, spell/s and artefact to make the most of the battlemage on griffon, which would you choose?

He can get +1 to cast from allegiance abilities and an extra cast from an artefact in Settler's gain, although I suppose you can get the extra cast in any city now from the Arcane Tome generic artefact.

You could also lean into the meme status of the Battlemage and give him Raging Outburst and the Blade of Leaping Bronze in the same city for +2 attacks and +1 to hit and wound with his wizard bonk. Sure, it also leaves him at -1 to saves, but that's not important, right?

[SentinelGuy]

4 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

He can get +1 to cast from allegiance abilities and an extra cast from an artefact in Settler's gain, although I suppose you can get the extra cast in any city now from the Arcane Tome generic artefact.

You could also lean into the meme status of the Battlemage and give him Raging Outburst and the Blade of Leaping Bronze in the same city for +2 attacks and +1 to hit and wound with his wizard bonk. Sure, it also leaves him at -1 to saves, but that's not important, right?

I quite like that. I wonder if you could sort of use him as a super assassin because nobody expects him to be any good. Give him the flaming weapon spell, take something else to act as the distraction and then turn him lose. I suppose it could work if you had another threat on the table that couldn't be ignored.

 

[Zeblasky]

7 hours ago, SentinelGuy said:

Interesting numbers.

If you had to pick a city, spell/s and artefact to make the most of the battlemage on griffon, which would you choose?

Well, if you want the most out of him, it's definetly Settler's gain, as Neil said. But if I had a freedom to do it and wanted to go full on scary meme...

Settler's Gain, a blob of 2 Battlemages on a Griffon, Hurricanum with Mage, Luminark with mage. 2x275+280+275=1005 points already. Some cheap chaff at front around Battlemages would be nice as well though, like 1x30 Freeguild with Sword and Shields OR you can go for something more expensive, up to you really. Both artefacts for Battlemages are Silver-plated Wand and generic Arcane Tome. What do you get out for your blob of that setup?
1) Everyone has 6+ ward and +1 to hit.
2) +1 to unbind rolls for 4 Wizards.
3) +2 to casts for Hurricanum and Luminark, +3 to cast for Battlemages on Griffons, +4 if you summon Endless spells.
4) Your battlemages can cast twice.

The big problem here though is that, unlike Hallowheart, Settler's Gain spell lore is pretty weak (and a healing spell would have been great for such a strategy) . Good thing than Battlemages on Griffons have 4 spells by default AND you can bring endless spells as well! And you will want to bring endless spells here. When 2 of your relatively tanky wizards have 2 casts each with +4 for ES summoning (I know that they can summon ES only once per phase, it just meas that they can still cast a spell with a +3 after), it's a crime not to bring Emerald Lifeswarm and some other ES. Honestly, with such a setup even 3 ES could be quite good here.

Is it an effective strategy overall? Well, probably not... But it does make Battlemages to actually look scary and effective x)

Edited July 7, 2021 by Zeblasky

[Lord of the Isle]

I’m really tempted by Mage on Griffon in Excelsis with lovely retro amber spells...

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, Lord of the Isle said:

I’m really tempted by Mage on Griffon in Excelsis with lovely retro amber spells...

The double Amber Spear combo!

[SentinelGuy]

You can't use both amber spears (or any spells with the same name). It's in one of the errata documents.

[Thugmullet]

12 hours ago, SentinelGuy said:

You can't use both amber spears (or any spells with the same name). It's in one of the errata documents.

Technically their not the same spell. One is Amber Spear and the other is The Amber Spear. It's a little rules laywery I admit but still correct I believe.

I personally will only run him in Hallowheart. Reason being I'd rather spend points elsewhere if he's not going to be a double caster AND he only has a  5 up save. Hallowheart he can get double cast and 5+*ward no probs. Unlock the core rules spells and then he's got a little bit more damage as well. Under this condition I think he's worth it. Anything less then I think 275 points can be spent better elsewhere.

[SentinelGuy]

4 hours ago, Thugmullet said:

Technically their not the same spell. One is Amber Spear and the other is The Amber Spear. It's a little rules laywery I admit but still correct I believe.

I personally will only run him in Hallowheart. Reason being I'd rather spend points elsewhere if he's not going to be a double caster AND he only has a  5 up save. Hallowheart he can get double cast and 5+*ward no probs. Unlock the core rules spells and then he's got a little bit more damage as well. Under this condition I think he's worth it. Anything less then I think 275 points can be spent better elsewhere.

The fact that there are now 2 Amber Spear spells makes me question how much the person who worked on Excelsis actually plays CoS. It was a great opportunity to introduce a combat boosting buff spell and they totally dropped the ball and gave us a weaker version of what we already had (and which wasn't used because it's pretty bad to begin with).

Why couldn't we have something like this? -

The Bear's Anger, cast on 7+, target self only, adds 2 attacks to chosen weapon (mounts unaffected).

 

 

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

8 minutes ago, SentinelGuy said:

The fact that there are now 2 Amber Spear spells makes me question how much the person who worked on Excelsis actually plays CoS. It was a great opportunity to introduce a combat boosting buff spell and they totally dropped the ball and gave us a weaker version of what we already had (and which wasn't used because it's pretty bad to begin with).

Why couldn't we have something like this? -

The Bear's Anger, cast on 7+, target self only, adds 2 attacks to chosen weapon (mounts unaffected).

Maybe they just forgot that the Battlemage on Griffon existed. I certainly have in the past.

[Doko]

All our behemots are jokes and i dont think gonna be used in any competitive list.

In 3.0 bring weaks behemots that only gonna give extra points to the rival is stupid.

In a meta where there are behemots as idoneths turtle,morathi,cows,archaon,gordrak,fec behemots and a big etc........if we bring our weaks behemots is giving extra points free to our rival for killing behemots.

Without these new rules that give extra points for killing behemots,i would see any use for any of our behemots,but rigth now dont make sense.