Cities of Sigmar in AoS 3

[Zeblasky]

Just had this idea in New Rules thread: take 10-15 Pistoliers (battleline in Tempest Eye), find a weak enough unit, shoot it, charge it, shoot again, finish it off, then Unleash Hell when you get charged in turn. That's 3 shooting attacks within a battle round, and without any buffs or debuffs from a 15 man unit that's potentially 30 -1 rend damage for 315 points. And you still have a decent melee profile here. A specific, but quite strong setup for sure.

[loky100]

I played 3rd Ed today with my living cities army.

Can say our monster hero's are really good. I had both the Black Dragon and Frostheart Phoenix, I gave the Dreadlord on Black Dragon the 5+ ward artifact.

 

They didn't die either by giving them a heal each hero phase and the living city wide heal just kept them up.

Seems like Cities of Sigmar are in a really good place.

Here was my list.

Warlord Battalion
Ironbreakers x 1 115 HR

General Runelord 100
Druid of the Ever Spring Circle - Iron Oak Skin

Frostheart Pheonix 315
Arcane tome - Flaming Weapon

Celestial Hurricanum 280
Life surge

Irondrakes 160
Irondrakes 160

Dreadlord on dragon 290 -
Amulet of destiny - 5+ ward

Concussors 235
Prime 325

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

17 hours ago, Hoseman said:

With the rumours of new Imperium minis. Maybe a dwarf union. And nothing for the elves... will we be getting a new book? What will the plans of GW for cities? 

I have been thinking about this, too.

The biggest rumours about new factions we have right now are Dawnbringer Crusades, mixed dwarves and Kurnothi. All of them seem naturally positioned to take a big chunk out of Cities of Sigmar: Humans for Dawnbringers, Dispossessed for mixed dwarves, Wanderers for Kurnothi. That leaves only Phoenix Temple and Darkling Covens/Scourge Privateers in Cities. The old Dark Elf stuff might join up with Malerion when he finally enters the scene, and Phoenix Temple can probably just vanish into the aether at that point.

I think this would be a sad development. Cities has some compelling fluff and it's nice that there is a "soupy" faction in the game that allows you to pull from a lot of places. Realistically, even if GW wants to spin out the Cities subfacitons into larger factions, they will not take away your ability to play them as Cities in this edition. That's what happened for LoN/Nighthaunt/OBR at least: The units that eventually went to different factions were playable all the way until Soulblight Gravelords became a real tome. I think we can expect a similar treatment for Cities if GW plans to separate out all the subfactions again.

I have to say, though, I think the decision to first soup everything together and then unsoup if again a few years later would be a bit questionable. Unsouping factions is way worse than souping them, because it leaves people with unplayable armies. So maybe GW will actually keep Cities around as a faction for a while, kind of to be the replacement for Grand Alliance: Order in a way, since Grand Alliance armies no longer exist. I could see that happening, especially since we now get different points for the same unit in different factions by default, so it's easier to balance.

EDIT:

Apparently, a few Cities are mentioned in the new core rule book, with new art:

To me that indicates that

• there are plans to keep Cities of Sigmar around for the time being.
• GW wants to have a city for every realm: Excelsis for Ghur, Lethis for Shyish, Misthavn for Ulgu, Settler's Gain for Hysh and all the other for Ghyran and Aqshy. Since Azyr is not a real option right now, only Chamon is missing.

That looks like an expansion of Cities overall rather than a sign that the faction will go away.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Doko]

I think we wont loose anithing and these supposed new soup tomes wont have our units as main units.

Our units gonna be only as stormcast to us, the rule of 1 of each 4 can be dispossesed in dwarf soup tome per example

[zilberfrid]

13 minutes ago, Doko said:

I think we wont loose anithing and these supposed new soup tomes wont have our units as main units.

Our units gonna be only as stormcast to us, the rule of 1 of each 4 can be dispossesed in dwarf soup tome per example

There are very few units that have keywords of multiple battletomes in them, so I wouldn't be sure.

The Dwarf soup faction seems like the perfect place for Disposessed, because, well, that's what they were longing for.

[Zeblasky]

7 hours ago, loky100 said:

I played 3rd Ed today with my living cities army.

Can say our monster hero's are really good. I had both the Black Dragon and Frostheart Phoenix, I gave the Dreadlord on Black Dragon the 5+ ward artifact.

 

 

Can't believe I was so stupid to miss this universal artefact. Spear of the Hunt is good, but +5 ward in LC is way better. Thanks for the idea, my dreadlord will be running it as well from now own!

[SentinelGuy]

14 hours ago, Zeblasky said:

Just had this idea in New Rules thread: take 10-15 Pistoliers (battleline in Tempest Eye), find a weak enough unit, shoot it, charge it, shoot again, finish it off, then Unleash Hell when you get charged in turn. That's 3 shooting attacks within a battle round, and without any buffs or debuffs from a 15 man unit that's potentially 30 -1 rend damage for 315 points. And you still have a decent melee profile here. A specific, but quite strong setup for sure.

I could see 10 working, but 15 may be a bit unwieldy if people are using more terrain.

If you did it in Hammerhal you could charge twice!

Edited June 28, 2021 by SentinelGuy

[readercolin]

Speaking as someone who was halfway done making an Order Draconis army (with kitbashes for the knights) before it got axed, and is now making a Cities force based around a Phoenix Temple core, I'm really leery of this talk about un-souping the cities.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind if the cities got re-worked so various units worked a bit better together.  However, the idea that people are thinking about pulling units out of the cities to form new factions is supremely annoying, as that would be the second army that I built that was broken by GW (not counting what happened to my high elves and wood elves from WHFB and the move to AoS).  If there is a new "Dawnbringer Crusades" book, I would rather it be its own thing, or an extension of the Cities that still keeps all of its units.

As for this talk of bringing the various dwarfs out of the cities, I wouldn't object if this new dwarf tome worked more like Belakor's army from the Wrath of the Everchosen book (which can include any daemon units).  Having an army that can bring in Dispossessed, Fyreslayers, and Kharadron Overlords with its own set of rules could be fun and interesting.  However, I would hate for it to become a soup tome that eliminates the Dispossessed from the cities and shoves Fyreslayers and KO into one book that eliminates their own army lore.

[Eldarain]

As a collector of a very eclectic city the rumors are offputting for sure. I'm just hoping there's a Soulblight type book that works as a pseudo replacement the way it did for LoN.

[Zeblasky]

1 hour ago, SentinelGuy said:

 

If you did it in Hammerhal you could charge twice!

Hammerhal CA only gives you an option to fight twice with melee weapons in Combat phase, not shoot and fight.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Zeblasky

[SentinelGuy]

2 hours ago, Zeblasky said:

Hammerhal CA only gives you an option to fight twice with melee weapons in Combat phase, not shoot and fight.

Doh! That'll teach me to check the book first.

[The Red King]

There are some hints of dwarves soup in the latest soulbound book. It also mentioned dawnbringer crusades so it's pretty up to date.

 

 

[readercolin]

FAQ's are now out.

Instead of just losing an ability entirely with no more empowered spells, Cities now casts endless spells with a +1 to their cast.  So at least we got some compensation.

Handgunners/Sisters now get to use unleash hell without a command point being issued or spent.  Maybe someone else can answer the question of whether or not this means multiple units can unleash hell or not because the command isn't issued, or what happens if you issue the unleash hell command and then another unit charges a unit of handgunners.  I'm not 100% certain.

It isn't exactly clear how the various cities (Tempest eye, living city, etc) are affected by the coalition rules.  Yes, there is still the 1/4 units can be from the other faction as part of the coalition rules, but what isn't clear is whether or not this means you can do something like 2/4 cities, 1/4 stormcast, 1/4 KO, or if the coalition rules are limiting you to 1/4 non-cities units period.  That being said, there is a very solid nerf in that the coalition units can't be generals, so I can no longer have a stormcast hero leading a bunch of cities dudes.

[Doko]

No longer 3 shootings handgunners\sisters,no other shooting unit can come close to lord sentinels plz

Also bye bye durthu being general and now he lost the living city +1 save and +1 wound

[Thundercake]

anyone put any thought towards running units of 2 gyrocopters since they are elite now, they can issue unleash hell, all out attack, or redeploy to themselves?

[readercolin]

12 minutes ago, Thundercake said:

anyone put any thought towards running units of 2 gyrocopters since they are elite now, they can issue unleash hell, all out attack, or redeploy to themselves?

It is a neat trick, and if Horde armies become a thing in my local meta I'll probably consider it.  However, at 75 points per (or 150 points for a pair), I would be a little concerned that it would be a waste of command points.  It does pay off more if you are playing a city that can get a lot of command points though (ex. hammerhall).

[SentinelGuy]

4 hours ago, readercolin said:

FAQ's are now out.

Instead of just losing an ability entirely with no more empowered spells, Cities now casts endless spells with a +1 to their cast.  So at least we got some compensation.

Handgunners/Sisters now get to use unleash hell without a command point being issued or spent.  Maybe someone else can answer the question of whether or not this means multiple units can unleash hell or not because the command isn't issued, or what happens if you issue the unleash hell command and then another unit charges a unit of handgunners.  I'm not 100% certain.

It isn't exactly clear how the various cities (Tempest eye, living city, etc) are affected by the coalition rules.  Yes, there is still the 1/4 units can be from the other faction as part of the coalition rules, but what isn't clear is whether or not this means you can do something like 2/4 cities, 1/4 stormcast, 1/4 KO, or if the coalition rules are limiting you to 1/4 non-cities units period.  That being said, there is a very solid nerf in that the coalition units can't be generals, so I can no longer have a stormcast hero leading a bunch of cities dudes.

Not being able to use Stormcast or Sylvaneth as general is a bit of a blow. I've just converted up a new thunderwolf riding elf lord which I was going to use as a Celestant on dracoth. Looks like I'll have to use something else as a general now

Funnily enough coalition units can't be general, but can be bodyguard or advisor for the extra CPs!

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

15 hours ago, readercolin said:

Handgunners/Sisters now get to use unleash hell without a command point being issued or spent.  Maybe someone else can answer the question of whether or not this means multiple units can unleash hell or not because the command isn't issued, or what happens if you issue the unleash hell command and then another unit charges a unit of handgunners.  I'm not 100% certain.

It's unclear right now, but I can see it play out in 3 ways:

• The Handgunners' ability lets them receive an extra Unleash Hell command in addition to the free one they get.

I find this pretty unlikely because it seems to go directly against the rules: The Stand and Shoot ability explicitly says that Handgunners receive an Unleash Hell command without it being issued, and the core rules make it clear that a unit can't receive more than one command in the same phase.

• The Handgunners don't get to double Unleash, but another unit gets to potentially Unleash in addition to the Handgunners.

This seems somewhat probable and potentially quite strong. You could potentially combo a free Handgunners Unleash with a regular Unleash and even a third one from the Grand Battery battalion (which should work the same way). 2x20 Handgunners double unleashing seems pretty decent still. But we need clarification on whether getting the effect of a command ability in this way counts as using it, because using the same command twice in the same phase is forbidden by the core rules.

• The Handgunners get to Unleash Hell for free, but then nobody else gets to do it.

That would basically just make their ability a free, purpose-bound command point if they get charged and would just be a downgrade compared to how Stand and Shoot worked before. So let's hope this is not the intended new rule.

 

[Zeblasky]

5 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

• The Handgunners get to Unleash Hell for free, but then nobody else gets to do it.

That would basically just make their ability a free, purpose-bound command point if they get charged and would just be a downgrade compared to how Stand and Shoot worked before. So let's hope this is not the intended new rule.

 

If you take the rules extremely RAW, this is the way to go. At the same time, this would be quite a big and an incredibly stupid nerf if this is the case. You get a universal ability, that you can use once, and your overwatch units can use it only once for free, instead of always having it no matter what AND without -1 to hit penalty. AND they are made more expensive at the same time. IF this the case, at the very least Handgunners and Sisters should cost 95 and 160 respectfully with such a huge nerf. They were heavily balanced around their overwatch after all.

As an owner of 40 commitioned painted Sisters of the Watch, I feel slightly depressed right now x)

Edited July 3, 2021 by Zeblasky

[SentinelGuy]

1 hour ago, Zeblasky said:

If you take the rules extremely RAW, this is the way to go. At the same time, this would be quite a big and an incredibly stupid nerf if this is the case. You get a universal ability, that you can use once, and your overwatch units can use it only once for free, instead of always having it no matter what AND without -1 to hit penalty. AND they are made more expensive at the same time. IF this the case, at the very least Handgunners and Sisters should cost 95 and 160 respectfully with such a huge nerf. They were heavily balanced around their overwatch after all.

As an owner of 40 commitioned painted Sisters of the Watch, I feel slightly depressed right now x)

This is how I'm reading it as well

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

5 hours ago, Zeblasky said:

If you take the rules extremely RAW, this is the way to go. At the same time, this would be quite a big and an incredibly stupid nerf if this is the case. You get a universal ability, that you can use once, and your overwatch units can use it only once for free, instead of always having it no matter what AND without -1 to hit penalty. AND they are made more expensive at the same time. IF this the case, at the very least Handgunners and Sisters should cost 95 and 160 respectfully with such a huge nerf. They were heavily balanced around their overwatch after all.

As an owner of 40 commitioned painted Sisters of the Watch, I feel slightly depressed right now x)

The problem is that the term "using a command" does not appear in mechanics bold in the core rules. I think there is a case to be made both for your reading and the one where other units still get to unleash hell in the same phase. Arguably, using a command ability means you go through the whole sequence of pay a point, issue the command, receive the command. Since Handgunners/Sisters/core battalions skip two of those steps, these cases would not qualify.

In my opinion, that would make the most sense from a design stand point, because otherwise these units and battalions are a lot less interesting.

[The Red King]

11 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

It's unclear right now, but I can see it play out in 3 ways:

• The Handgunners' ability lets them receive an extra Unleash Hell command in addition to the free one they get.

I find this pretty unlikely because it seems to go directly against the rules: The Stand and Shoot ability explicitly says that Handgunners receive an Unleash Hell command without it being issued, and the core rules make it clear that a unit can't receive more than one command in the same phase.

• The Handgunners don't get to double Unleash, but another unit gets to potentially Unleash in addition to the Handgunners.

This seems somewhat probable and potentially quite strong. You could potentially combo a free Handgunners Unleash with a regular Unleash and even a third one from the Grand Battery battalion (which should work the same way). 2x20 Handgunners double unleashing seems pretty decent still. But we need clarification on whether getting the effect of a command ability in this way counts as using it, because using the same command twice in the same phase is forbidden by the core rules.

• The Handgunners get to Unleash Hell for free, but then nobody else gets to do it.

That would basically just make their ability a free, purpose-bound command point if they get charged and would just be a downgrade compared to how Stand and Shoot worked before. So let's hope this is not the intended new rule.

 

To copy my post from the other thread.

 

So what about the little rule blurb at the top of page 61 in the GHB. "If the effect of an ability [loose until the last] contradicts a core rule [Cannot use the same command ability twice, a unit can not receive more than 1 command ability per phase], then the effect takes precedence."

 

Seems pretty clear to me that if you issue "real" unleash hell first then activate loose until the last then the effect of loose until the last will take precedence over the concerns of using/recieving multiple command abilities. It is not however clear to me that would work if you did it in the other order but I cant imagine why it wouldnt other than poor writing. 

[Zeblasky]

5 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

The problem is that the term "using a command" does not appear in mechanics bold in the core rules. I think there is a case to be made both for your reading and the one where other units still get to unleash hell in the same phase. Arguably, using a command ability means you go through the whole sequence of pay a point, issue the command, receive the command. Since Handgunners/Sisters/core battalions skip two of those steps, these cases would not qualify.

In my opinion, that would make the most sense from a design stand point, because otherwise these units and battalions are a lot less interesting.

Yep, in the past couple hours I've reach such conlusions as well thanks to a question thread I've created (see below). The thing is, it's even worse. 

Right now, consensus on how to understand the rules RAW drifts to 2 conclusions:

1) Free Unleash hell or CA Unleash hell can only be used once per phase, never together.

2) Free Unleash hell can be used as many times as enemy units finish a charge near it, even when you in melee already (old overwatch restrictions have been removed), and you can also use UH CA on any unit on top.

So it's either a huge nerf, or it's a huge buff. Both are not good I'd say x)

Sort by date btw.

 

 

10 minutes ago, The Red King said:

To copy my post from the other thread.

 

So what about the little rule blurb at the top of page 61 in the GHB. "If the effect of an ability [loose until the last] contradicts a core rule [Cannot use the same command ability twice, a unit can not receive more than 1 command ability per phase], then the effect takes precedence."

 

Seems pretty clear to me that if you issue "real" unleash hell first then activate loose until the last then the effect of loose until the last will take precedence over the concerns of using/recieving multiple command abilities. It is not however clear to me that would work if you did it in the other order but I cant imagine why it wouldnt other than poor writing. 

To copy my edited post as well x)

"You know, I was also thinking about that, just was not sure that this applies here. There is no, well, direct contradiction, like "every time a unit finishes move within 3" or "this unit can receive Unleash Hell multiple times through the use of this ability". "

[The Red King]

13 minutes ago, Zeblasky said:

Snip

 

 

To copy my edited post as well x)

"You know, I was also thinking about that, just was not sure that this applies here. There is no, well, direct contradiction, like "every time a unit finishes move within 3" or "this unit can receive Unleash Hell multiple times through the use of this ability". "

But there is a direct contradiction between "...this unit can recieve the unleash hell command..." and "a unit can not receive more than 1 command in the same phase. In addition you cannot use the same command ability more than once in the same phase..."

 

It's not a direct contradiction but the blurb only says "if theres a contradiction" so it seems safe to say that using "real" unleash hell on any unit in the charge phase now means you cant use unleash hell again in the charge phase and the unit that received it can't receive any more commands BUT "loose until the last" allowing the unit that was charged to receive the unleash hell command ability now contradicts that rule and takes precedence. 

 

As written, with the blurb on pg 61 in mind it seems that yes they can overwatch as many times as they get charged.

Edited July 3, 2021 by The Red King

[Zeblasky]

1 hour ago, The Red King said:

But there is a direct contradiction between "...this unit can recieve the unleash hell command..." and "a unit can not receive more than 1 command in the same phase. In addition you cannot use the same command ability more than once in the same phase..."

 

It's not a direct contradiction but the blurb only says "if theres a contradiction" so it seems safe to say that using "real" unleash hell on any unit in the charge phase now means you cant use unleash hell again in the charge phase and the unit that received it can't receive any more commands BUT "loose until the last" allowing the unit that was charged to receive the unleash hell command ability now contradicts that rule and takes precedence. 

 

As written, with the blurb on pg 61 in mind it seems that yes they can overwatch as many times as they get charged.

So, we actually have 2 rules going in our favour. And, untill FAQ drops, we can shoot anyone approaching as much as we want, haha. Just gotta use Unleash Hell first.