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Cities of Sigmar in AoS 3


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9 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I'll be honest, I have not thought about Flagellants since the Cities of Sigmar book first dropped.

But looking at them again now, they are not awful. They don't deal any damage and die quickly, but they are drit cheap and can be made battleline in a lot of ways. In the current meta, rend '-' is frequently as good as rend -1, since it's very easy to negate one level of rend if you want to, so in theory a unit that can get 4 attacks, 4/3/-/1 compares somewhat favourably to a unit with the standard 2 attacks, 3/3/-1/1 profile in some situations. Although I don't think you can consistently get that kind of profile for the Flagellants.

Maybe a unit of 20 for 160 points with no support just for the battle tactic might be OK? Or even 10 for 80. You could just have those guys walk up a less defended flank, secure in the knowledge that they are probably too trash for your opponent to consider diverting ressources away from the main fight to deal with them.

Also, when the new app was first out their Save was accidentally listed as 0 which was hilarious 😂

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16 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:
21 minutes ago, EntMan said:

Not sure the thought of painting up 20 of them fills me with joy though, pretty fiddley looking

It's honestly probably where I come down, too. I don't like the models enough to paint a significant number of them up

Just had a thought that doing a unit of 20 using 10 proper Flagelants and 10 Chaos Marauders (with appriately selected parts) could do the trick. 

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4 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I'll be honest, I have not thought about Flagellants since the Cities of Sigmar book first dropped.

But looking at them again now, they are not awful. They don't deal any damage and die quickly, but they are drit cheap and can be made battleline in a lot of ways. In the current meta, rend '-' is frequently as good as rend -1, since it's very easy to negate one level of rend if you want to, so in theory a unit that can get 4 attacks, 4/3/-/1 compares somewhat favourably to a unit with the standard 2 attacks, 3/3/-1/1 profile in some situations. Although I don't think you can consistently get that kind of profile for the Flagellants.

Maybe a unit of 20 for 160 points with no support just for the battle tactic might be OK? Or even 10 for 80. You could just have those guys walk up a less defended flank, secure in the knowledge that they are probably too trash for your opponent to consider diverting ressources away from the main fight to deal with them.

How about 30 Flags with Hallowheart warding brand.  Charge them into a unit Cursed by a priest (Fishing for 6s).   

They may be dismissed as a distraction,  but when your enemy does target they unit they will roll lots of 6s to hit (4 attacks / model), also they return MWs for units slain and fleeing.   Then, if necessary rally and cast Lifeswarm will bring back lots more of the lunatics to win objectives with weight of numbers.

But, as already noted, who wants to paint thirty of these?  

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Personally I love the crazy guys for sculpts, but I also just love the horrifying fanatic church cult stuff. And yes, I do play Sisters of Battle and even a bit of Witchhunters. lol

I even made a portion of my city fit that, so really it is only a matter of time for a huge unit of 30....but they are webstore (so no discount) and I have been iffy on Hordes which has, well, lessened my drive for Cities overall as we are either a Horde-ish army or a spamming gimmick.

Not that I get to play much Warhammer these days, just watch. Troubles of working at a game sbop. lol

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Just got my first Cities model yesterday, a Frosty/Flaming Phoenix.  Always loved that model.  But before I go wild and gather battlelines and support heroes, do we think Cities will be getting a new tome any time soon?   I was looking forward to making a rather diverse army, probably using a few IDK allies for speed and weirdness, but could the allies and coalitions change significantly?

If one were to use a Phoenix, is the Frostheart more favored these days?  I noticed it hits better with the talons but lacks the MW overpass attack.  Either one is pretty.

I also have a Lord Arcanum on GryphCharger and 2 Concussors I'll be using in there (my only Stormcast models).  Not sure which direction to go for battleline.  Maybe just FreeGuild Gunners?  They seem an all around cheap decent choice if a General is nearby.

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4 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Just got my first Cities model yesterday, a Frosty/Flaming Phoenix.  Always loved that model.  But before I go wild and gather battlelines and support heroes, do we think Cities will be getting a new tome any time soon?   I was looking forward to making a rather diverse army, probably using a few IDK allies for speed and weirdness, but could the allies and coalitions change significantly?

If one were to use a Phoenix, is the Frostheart more favored these days?  I noticed it hits better with the talons but lacks the MW overpass attack.  Either one is pretty.

I also have a Lord Arcanum on GryphCharger and 2 Concussors I'll be using in there (my only Stormcast models).  Not sure which direction to go for battleline.  Maybe just FreeGuild Gunners?  They seem an all around cheap decent choice if a General is nearby.

I doubt Cities is getting a new battletome soon.  There are rumors of the "Dawnheart Crusades", but I have a feeling that is going to turn out more like the Broken Realms series of supplements rather than a new book for just the cities.  That being said, I could be wrong.  However, with Cities getting a white dwarf update, it indicates that we are likely to not see a new book for at least 6 months to a year or two.

As for Phoenix, Frostheart all the way.  The Flamespyre is... ok... but it has been drastically nerfed by the wording of its mortal wound bombs being "A normal move".  For reference, in 2.0, a normal move was a move, a run, a charge, a retreat, or a pile in.  In 3.0, a normal move is... a move.  All those other things that used to count now don't.  This means that in 2.0, I could take a flamespyre phoenix in Tempest eye, give him "Swift as the Wind", run 26" turn 1, fly over something, deal 5 mortals on the fly over, then charge a unit, fly over them a little before landing next to them and deal another 5 mortals, and then fight first, piling in 3", where I would fly in a bit over their base to deal another 5 mortals.  All before actually attempting to do damage with weapons.  Then, on the next turn, I could retreat out of combat and deal another 5 mortals on the way out (assuming I was still in my top bracket).  This made the flamespyre a terror in 2.0 (though still not particularly common to see).  However, in the above example in 3.0 the flamespyre would deal exactly 0 damage in mortal wounds from flyovers.

On top of that, the damage profile for the flamespyre is terrible.  A frostheart without any buffs can expect ~9 damage on average before saves.  A flamesypre? ~6.  And yet for some reason the flamespyre is only 25 points less.  I would say that I can usually get 315 points of value out of a frostheart between its damage output and its -1 wound aura.  I cannot say that I can get even 200 points value out of a flamespyre most of the time.

Finally, for battleline.  I would HIGHLY recommend getting 20-40 Phoenix Guard.  I find that a lot of my lists start out as 1 Frostheart + 2 blocks of 20 Phoenix Guard, then fill in the rest with other units.  If I really need points for something, I'll drop a block or two of guard down to 10, but I almost always want to run my frostheart as my general.  There are exceptions if there is something else you want to build around, like irondrakes.  But most of my lists start with Phoenix Guard and a frostheart because those models generally perform for me, and I can experiment with the rest of my list as I want.  On the other hand... I am one of those nuts that has 90 phoenix guard, so your mileage may vary.

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15 hours ago, readercolin said:

For reference, in 2.0, a normal move was a move, a run, a charge, a retreat, or a pile in. 

I'm 100% sure you're wrong about how this worked in 2.0, and if you were doing this generating 15 mortals a turn thing you were cheating a heck of a lot. A retreat move was a normal move, but consolidation and charging absolutely weren't.

 

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15 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

I'm 100% sure you're wrong about how this worked in 2.0, and if you were doing this generating 15 mortals a turn thing you were cheating a heck of a lot. A retreat move was a normal move, but consolidation and charging absolutely weren't.

Ahh, I found my point of confusion.

I was mixing up the wording with the Stardrake mount trait (storm winged), which says "After this model has moved", vs the phoenix "after this has made a normal move".  I did play with the stardrake in 2nd edition, but even though I finished my Flamespyre before 3.0 dropped, I never got to play with him till afterwards due to lockdown.

Still an extremely disappointing model to put on the table.

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On the subject of causing too many mortal wounds, I've been taking the Hurricanum, and assuming that since it has a missile attack, it can Unleash Hell. Since the Storm of Shemtek attack doesn't roll to hit, presumably it doesn't suffer from the usual -1 to hit, so (on zero damage) just rolls three die and for every 2+ it's D3 mortals. Am I playing it right?

(Similarly with Dracothian Guard, since their missile attack doesn't roll to hit anymore). 

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21 hours ago, readercolin said:

I doubt Cities is getting a new battletome soon.  There are rumors of the "Dawnheart Crusades", but I have a feeling that is going to turn out more like the Broken Realms series of supplements rather than a new book for just the cities.  That being said, I could be wrong.  However, with Cities getting a white dwarf update, it indicates that we are likely to not see a new book for at least 6 months to a year or two.

As for Phoenix, Frostheart all the way. ...

Finally, for battleline.  I would HIGHLY recommend getting 20-40 Phoenix Guard.  I find that a lot of my lists start out as 1 Frostheart + 2 blocks of 20 Phoenix Guard, then fill in the rest with other units.  If I really need points for something, I'll drop a block or two of guard down to 10, but I almost always want to run my frostheart as my general.  There are exceptions if there is something else you want to build around, like irondrakes.  But most of my lists start with Phoenix Guard and a frostheart because those models generally perform for me, and I can experiment with the rest of my list as I want.  On the other hand... I am one of those nuts that has 90 phoenix guard, so your mileage may vary.

Thanks for this info!  I was thinking the Phoenix would make a good general, nice and fast, pretty tanky with the Anointed Ward.  Makes good sense to get some Phoenix Guard then, or similarly looking high Aelves.  I like their 2" range too, and we do need masses of bodies to score objectives afterall (sorry steam tanks).  That said, maybe I'll get a Steam Tank too and have a cat driving it.

I see your points about no new tome soon.  Kinda good though, that way I can just wait to see what I can get cheap and let fate decide....but not Dark Aelves, they just don't have a positive attitude :)

 

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3 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Thanks for this info!  I was thinking the Phoenix would make a good general, nice and fast, pretty tanky with the Anointed Ward.  Makes good sense to get some Phoenix Guard then, or similarly looking high Aelves.  I like their 2" range too, and we do need masses of bodies to score objectives afterall (sorry steam tanks).  That said, maybe I'll get a Steam Tank too and have a cat driving it.

I see your points about no new tome soon.  Kinda good though, that way I can just wait to see what I can get cheap and let fate decide....but not Dark Aelves, they just don't have a positive attitude :)

I agree with Lord Krungharr 100%.

Pheonix Guard are the best unit in cities I think.

The only reason I don't run them in an army is if there high point cost prohibits me from running something else I really want in a particular army. Otherwise I take them everytime.

Only played 3 games of Aos3 with frost pheonix.But hes performed superwell everytime. I load him up with the atcane tome and then bassically launch him off against the biggest baddest enemy unit i can get to. Hes only died 1 out of 3 times (which surprised me lol) ,did very little damage really but 3 out of 3 times that unit he charged (worth roughly double his points) did not get to participate in the game at all or for the first 3 rounds ..which is what his job was.

i love the steam tank. its just one of those iconic units..but in his current form hes just too unreliable...you cant even count on his movement to have him where you need him. His shooting is good but when you facter in the swingy d6 damage and the swingy 4+ to hit...again its just to unreliable. His melee damage is not good either.

For 240 points your better of with a unit of 2  fulmonators.

shooting mortal, reliable 10 inch move and they hit like a truck. 10 points extra.

 

 

 

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Just now, Thugmullet said:

I agree with Lord Krungharr 100%.

Pheonix Guard are the best unit in cities I think.

The only reason I don't run them in an army is if there high point cost prohibits me from running something else I really want in a particular army. Otherwise I take them everytime.

Only played 3 games of Aos3 with frost pheonix.But hes performed superwell everytime. I load him up with the atcane tome and then bassically launch him off against the biggest baddest enemy unit i can get to. Hes only died 1 out of 3 times (which surprised me lol) ,did very little damage really but 3 out of 3 times that unit he charged (worth roughly double his points) did not get to participate in the game at all or for the first 3 rounds or not at all..which is what his job was.

i love the steam tank. its just one of those iconic units..but in his current form hes just too unreliable...you cant even count on his movement to have him where you need him. His shooting is good but when you facter in the swingy d6 damage and the swingy 4+ to hit...again its just to unreliable. His melee damage is not good either.

For 240 points your better of with a unit of 2  fulmonators.

shooting mortal, reliable 10 inch move and they hit like a truck. 10 points extra.

 

 

 

 

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Question for a friend: He enjoys Anvilgard & classic Dark Elves a lot. Up until now, however, battles have been quite lopsided. At this moment, I'm playing Kruleboyz Big Yellerz, but we had the same issue when I played Sylvaneth back in 2.0. 

Any decent lists for anvilgard in 3.0? Or at least Dark Elf units? I've looked around a lot, but not much I can find. He's especially fond of the monsters like Hydra's, Black Dragons & Drakespawn knights - although I reckon these are risky because of the Mortal Wound output of Kruleboyz. I'd be fine with switching to Sylvaneth (Though, with Sylvaneth the problem was that I consistently out-regenerated any damage other than from the Vitriolic spray combo) or Stormcast for a game so he can play the anvilgard monsters without getting tabled in turn 2. 

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21 minutes ago, Abstract_duck said:

Question for a friend: He enjoys Anvilgard & classic Dark Elves a lot. Up until now, however, battles have been quite lopsided. At this moment, I'm playing Kruleboyz Big Yellerz, but we had the same issue when I played Sylvaneth back in 2.0. 

Any decent lists for anvilgard in 3.0? Or at least Dark Elf units? I've looked around a lot, but not much I can find. He's especially fond of the monsters like Hydra's, Black Dragons & Drakespawn knights - although I reckon these are risky because of the Mortal Wound output of Kruleboyz. I'd be fine with switching to Sylvaneth (Though, with Sylvaneth the problem was that I consistently out-regenerated any damage other than from the Vitriolic spray combo) or Stormcast for a game so he can play the anvilgard monsters without getting tabled in turn 2. 

Anvilgard wants Vitriolic Spray combined with lots of cheap attacks that instantly delete a unit. It supposedly is the best performing City at the moment.

I don't think the monsters of Cities are much to write home about.

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3 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

Anvilgard wants Vitriolic Spray combined with lots of cheap attacks that instantly delete a unit. It supposedly is the best performing City at the moment.

I don't think the monsters of Cities are much to write home about.

This.  I look forward to the next GHB to moving to new realm.   My Kharibdryss and Hydra each give away more VPS bonus than they earn.    Not to mention they have little to no staying power.   

As mentioned above Frostheart is useful.

Sorceress on Dragon with Master of Magic (reroll 1 cast), an Arcane Tome (+1 cast), along side a regular Sorceress on foot and a chaff unit of Dreadspears (+2 to cast) is also very useful.

Sorceress sacrifices an elf for spell portal on 3+ (Including +2 buff, and endless spells +1).
Sorceress on Dragon sacrifices another elf for Vitrolic Spray on 6+ (inc +2 buff) and the Bladewind on 4+ (inc buff), rerolling 1 cast if required.   This gives you a reliable 9 MW anywhere on the table.

 

3 hours ago, Abstract_duck said:

Question for a friend: He enjoys Anvilgard & classic Dark Elves a lot. Up until now, however, battles have been quite lopsided. At this moment, I'm playing Kruleboyz Big Yellerz, but we had the same issue when I played Sylvaneth back in 2.0. 

Any decent lists for anvilgard in 3.0? Or at least Dark Elf units? I've looked around a lot, but not much I can find. He's especially fond of the monsters like Hydra's, Black Dragons & Drakespawn knights - although I reckon these are risky because of the Mortal Wound output of Kruleboyz. I'd be fine with switching to Sylvaneth (Though, with Sylvaneth the problem was that I consistently out-regenerated any damage other than from the Vitriolic spray combo) or Stormcast for a game so he can play the anvilgard monsters without getting tabled in turn 2. 

I play DE in Anvilgard and they arent the best option now.   The DE sub factions would be in a much better position if the Freeguild General could buff our guys.  

Personally, I've enjoyed playing Misthavn recently.  They are so far off meta that some opponents are surprised.    Dropping 2 Hydras and a Dreadlord to buff >9" is fun.   You can then move the dreadlord forward d6 for a command point to help with the charge.   I use the new mount trait and then charge both monsters picking 2 of 3d6",  Finally, the dreadlord charges last so as to avoid Unleash Hell.

Drakespawn Knights in 10s can also be a nice anvil to drop on to objectives.

Cons are that there is no spell lore and your friend will probably be using universal command traits and artefacts.
 

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Looking at putting some Duardin in my mix.  Comparing say allied Auric Hearthguard and a tunneling Runesmiter, vs a Runelord and Irondrakes....which would be generally more desirable?  I rather like the tunneling potential, but I know from experience how hard those Irondrakes can shoot when all Runed-up.  Kinda cool that Tempest's Eye could have all 3 Duardin types in there too.  Guess my Phoenix could keep up with the floaty ships too.

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19 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Looking at putting some Duardin in my mix.  Comparing say allied Auric Hearthguard and a tunneling Runesmiter, vs a Runelord and Irondrakes....which would be generally more desirable?  I rather like the tunneling potential, but I know from experience how hard those Irondrakes can shoot when all Runed-up.  Kinda cool that Tempest's Eye could have all 3 Duardin types in there too.  Guess my Phoenix could keep up with the floaty ships too.

In tempest's eye you used to jump your whole army with irondrakes using the bridge which isn't possible anymore, so they may never get a good doubleshoot off outside of living city unless you catapult them all alone into range which is obviously pretty risky. They're also very expensive. Runelords are super duper good support heroes though, if you have enough dispossessed for them to buff.

I'm not sure how useful unsupported Hearthguard shooting is on paper - I suppose against a monster it's reasonably high? I would probably rather use a Kharadron boat and/or thunderers if I wanted mobile shooting. Between the CoS and KO ranges I can't really see dipping outside your coalition for shooting units in Tempest's Eye.

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2 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Looking at putting some Duardin in my mix.  Comparing say allied Auric Hearthguard and a tunneling Runesmiter, vs a Runelord and Irondrakes....which would be generally more desirable?  I rather like the tunneling potential, but I know from experience how hard those Irondrakes can shoot when all Runed-up.  Kinda cool that Tempest's Eye could have all 3 Duardin types in there too.  Guess my Phoenix could keep up with the floaty ships too.

If you were to compare the 2 units without support, 10 Irondrakes that move come out to an average of 4.89 damage before saves, while 5 Auric Hearthguard shooting non-monsters come out to 3.67 damage before saves (note, both units have rend -1 here).  Both units have a situation where they can double their damage - irondrakes by standing still, and hearthguard by shooting monsters.

However, we then have to look at the support.  In the cities, you can buff hearthguard with all out attack, and you can give them deepstrike with a runesmiter.  And that's it - there is literally nothing else that you can do to buff them.  However, when you look at irondrakes, you can give them +1 to hit from all out attack, a hurricanum, or a Taurelion, you can give them +1 to wound in tempest eye with hawk eyed, or in hallowheart with their spell, and they can also re-roll wound rolls of 1 if they are near some longbeards and finally, they can get +1 rend from a runelord.

Now, all the support does cost extra points, which means you can't really compare 10 hearthguard to 20 irondrakes straight up.  But, fully buffed up the hearthguard will deal an average of 18.67 damage to a monster before saves (with rend -1), but a fully buffed up squad of 20 irondrakes will deal an average of 34 damage before saves (with rend -2) if they stand still.  This means that comparing best case scenarios against each other, it becomes really, really hard to want to run hearthguard over irondrakes.  Additionally, defensively the hearthguard are 2 wound models with a 5+ save, while irondrakes are 1 wound models with a 4+ save and a +1 vs shooting.  Finally, irondrakes can benefit from your cities allegience abilities while the hearthguard can't.

All this doesn't mean don't run hearthguard.  However, if you do run them, realize that doing so is probably worse than running cities units, unless you are really valuing the deepstrike capability.  But, if you want to go all in on dwarfs, you do have this amusing army option (note, not good, amusing):

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Tempest's Eye
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Auric Runesmiter (120)*
- Runic Iron
- Universal Prayer Scripture: Curse
- Allies
Cogsmith (70)*
- City Role: General's Adjutant
Runelord (100)*
- General
- Command Trait: Hawk-eyed
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of Eagles: Strike of Eagles
- Universal Prayer Scripture: Heal

Battleline
30 x Irondrakes (480)*
- Reinforced x 2
10 x Longbeards (105)*
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields
10 x Longbeards (105)*
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields

Units
10 x Auric Hearthguard (250)*
- Allies
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Grundstok Thunderers (270)*
- Reinforced x 1

Behemoths
Arkanaut Ironclad (490)*

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 370 / 400
Wounds: 123
Drops: 1

This gives you an all dwarf list that has a ton of shooting available to it, runs all 3 dwarf factions, and is a 1 drop list.

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4 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Looking at putting some Duardin in my mix.  Comparing say allied Auric Hearthguard and a tunneling Runesmiter, vs a Runelord and Irondrakes....which would be generally more desirable?  I rather like the tunneling potential, but I know from experience how hard those Irondrakes can shoot when all Runed-up.  Kinda cool that Tempest's Eye could have all 3 Duardin types in there too.  Guess my Phoenix could keep up with the floaty ships too.

Iron Drakes all the way.

The leader will get 2 shots on 3+3 at - 2 for d6 damage each against monsters (if he stands still, but that includes overwatch) In current meta that's gold.

But there speeds a real bummer as they only move 4 and lose half there shots when they move.

Can be difficult to use and they really want transport outside of living city. So that's additional cost. Expensive unit.

But top tier shooters for sure.

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Mmmyeah, the more I look at a mixed bag of Cities units for an army, the best option really becomes Living City I think.  Then at least slowpokes can Outflank in missions that allow it, and maybe move after shooting if needed.  Plus the healing is never a bad thing.  Dryads fill easily fill some battlelines for that one and gives something for my dog-headed Dracoths to sniff 😛

An all Dwarves army is so very tempting though!  @readercolin  that one drop idea is pretty awesome.  I just might have to sell some Ogors to make that happen.  Ogors can't shoot very well, and I do want a shooty army option.  Skaven Skryre also comes to mind, but I'm so much more a dwarf than a rat.  Also in the future I do hope and predict for a Duardin-united tome.  Then I'll have my bases covered.

Kinda wish we could make our own Cities like Space Marines can make their own Chapter, or am I imagning that that's a thing in 40k?

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@Lord Krungharr just keep in mind that per current GHB rules, Coalition units (i.e. Sylvaneth in Living City) do not count towards your minimum Battleline, so you'll still need some Cities units to fill those spots. Coalition units like Dryads still keep their Battlefield role though, so for that mission where Battleline score your Dryads in this scenario would still count for that. 

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