Cities of Sigmar in AoS 3

[EntMan]

6 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

. Will I end up building a self-driving rocket artillery steam tank at some point? I can't really say, but yes.

You've said it now, so now you have to (and post photos)

7 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

And it's another point of failure for the whole set up if your opponent ends up sniping your Cogsmith.

Isn't a volley gun big and bulky enough for a cogsmith to hide behind and block line of sight for snipers?

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 minutes ago, EntMan said:

You've said it now, so now you have to (and post photos)

Isn't a volley gun big and bulky enough for a cogsmith to hide behind and block line of sight for snipers?

I'll probably end up doing it at some point. I already have three Steam Tanks and always find myself wanting at least one more when writing lists so that battleline is covered, haha.

As for blocking line of sight, it's really hard to block line of sight with unit in AoS, since being able to see any little part of a model is enough. Although you might be able to stick the Cogsmith on/behind some terrain in your deployment zone. That's always an option, after all.

[EntMan]

31 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

As for blocking line of sight, it's really hard to block line of sight with unit in AoS, since being able to see any little part of a model is enough

I guess it doesn't help that the Cogsmith had that big steampunk cog thing sticking up above him and doubleing his height and visibility.

I'll have a try later to see if he's hide able behind my volley gun.

Edited November 11, 2021 by EntMan

[EntMan]

All this talk of Ironweld artillery sets me to wondering - what's the worst (rules/play wise) unit or model you have bought, built and painted and included in your army just because you think it's cool? 

[Double Misfire]

8 hours ago, EntMan said:

All this talk of Ironweld artillery sets me to wondering - what's the worst (rules/play wise) unit or model you have bought, built and painted and included in your army just because you think it's cool? 

Steam Tanks. Definitely Steam Tanks.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

11 hours ago, Double Misfire said:

Steam Tanks. Definitely Steam Tanks.

Same, to be honest. But on the other hand, if you have the option to run a bunch of tanks, but choose not to, what does that say about you?

The Steam Tank Commander is actually pretty OK, though.

[EntMan]

 

14 hours ago, Double Misfire said:

Steam Tanks. Definitely Steam Tanks.

For me, well basically my whole nearly 2000 points worth of Living Cities is an inconsistent mess based on buying models I want to make and paint.

Worst offenders currently are probably Drakespawn Knights (I'm sure there are better cavalry options but none look as good) and Skaeth's Wild Hunt (why should only BoC get centaurs?)

And of course the Ironweld Arsenal guns and fireworks.

[Double Misfire]

5 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Same, to be honest. But on the other hand, if you have the option to run a bunch of tanks, but choose not to, what does that say about you?

The Steam Tank Commander is actually pretty OK, though.

The Steam Tank Commander's not bad with the +1 save artefact, but I can't help wishing I'd painted up a +1 save griffon instead...

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 hours ago, Double Misfire said:

The Steam Tank Commander's not bad with the +1 save artefact, but I can't help wishing I'd painted up a +1 save griffon instead...

I still like the Steam Tank Commander for what he is, which, in a rare flavour win, is... an actual tank!

The griffin can go to a 3+ save, but since the General's shield is just a +1 to saves, not "change this unit's save characteristic to 3+", he can't get to a 2+. So the Steam Tank at least has the niche of tanking a bit better, and self-healing on top of it. You can also definitely slap an Amulet or Arcane Tome on it, both work pretty well. I think the Steam Tank is pretty good for pinning opponents, I just wish it was a little faster (or at least less random). I think in Tempest's Eye, the Tank Commander is a very reasonable pick. He even becomes a bit of a buff wagon with the +1 to wound aura from the Hawk Eyed trait.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Double Misfire]

5 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I still like the Steam Tank Commander for what he is, which, in a rare flavour win, is... an actual tank!

The griffin can go to a 3+ save, but since the General's shield is just a +1 to saves, not "change this unit's save characteristic to 3+", he can't get to a 2+. So the Steam Tank at least has the niche of tanking a bit better, and self-healing on top of it. You can also definitely slap an Amulet or Arcane Tome on it, both work pretty well. I think the Steam Tank is pretty good for pinning opponents, I just wish it was a little faster (or at least less random). I think in Tempest's Eye, the Tank Commander is a very reasonable pick. He even becomes a bit of a buff wagon with the +1 to wound aura from the Hawk Eyed trait.

I've played like two games of the new edition and had forgotten the general's (pointless) free shield was a modifier and didn't stack. Thanks for the heads up, you just saved me painting a griffon!  

[readercolin]

On 11/11/2021 at 4:47 AM, EntMan said:

All this talk of Ironweld artillery sets me to wondering - what's the worst (rules/play wise) unit or model you have bought, built and painted and included in your army just because you think it's cool? 

Its tough, but I have 3 "choices" for worst units in the army.

First is Drakespawn Knights.  Now, they have gotten a bit better, but I tried running drakespawn initially when they were 170 points for the unit, and they were DEFINITELY not worth it.  Even at 125 points, they aren't really worth it.  I still run them occasionally, but only when I am deliberately playing a lower powered list.

Second, Dreadlords on Black Dragons.  Now, before we dive too much into how bad these guys are, let me be clear - I have 4 of these guys (3 of them magentized to be able to run as sorceresses instead).  But they are lacking in damage, in rend, have low bravery so are tough to heal, and are a 4+ base save (with a +1 if you have a shield).  However, most people don't recognize just how bad the dragons are, and fixate on them, which allows the rest of the army to actually win the game.  They are also fast enough that I can get them into position pretty easily.  And I have now run out of good things to say.  They are TERRIBLE at taking damage - 14 wounds with no ward, a base 4+, and little ability to heal means that they tend to go down fast against most enemies.

Third, the Sorceress on Black Dragon.  First off, who is really going to spend 295 points on a 5+ save monster?  I mean, if I'm paying that much, that unit had best be a sledgehammer, or maybe a multi-caster.  What is the sorceress?  A 1 cast wizard who also doesn't do good melee damage.  Also, 7 bravery, so you definitely ain't healing her back up with heroic recovery.  WHY?  What purpose does this unit serve?  Like, at all?  I'm pretty sure that for every single sorceress on dragon you put in your army, your winrate drops by at least 5%.

Overall, a lot of the hero's in the Cities are terrible.  I have played with all of the above units (repeatedly).  But even though I love fielding dragons, if I am looking at things objectively, I always struggle to come up with a good reason to run any of the above units.

[Thugmullet]

53 minutes ago, readercolin said:

Its tough, but I have 3 "choices" for worst units in the army.

First is Drakespawn Knights.  Now, they have gotten a bit better, but I tried running drakespawn initially when they were 170 points for the unit, and they were DEFINITELY not worth it.  Even at 125 points, they aren't really worth it.  I still run them occasionally, but only when I am deliberately playing a lower powered list.

Second, Dreadlords on Black Dragons.  Now, before we dive too much into how bad these guys are, let me be clear - I have 4 of these guys (3 of them magentized to be able to run as sorceresses instead).  But they are lacking in damage, in rend, have low bravery so are tough to heal, and are a 4+ base save (with a +1 if you have a shield).  However, most people don't recognize just how bad the dragons are, and fixate on them, which allows the rest of the army to actually win the game.  They are also fast enough that I can get them into position pretty easily.  And I have now run out of good things to say.  They are TERRIBLE at taking damage - 14 wounds with no ward, a base 4+, and little ability to heal means that they tend to go down fast against most enemies.

Third, the Sorceress on Black Dragon.  First off, who is really going to spend 295 points on a 5+ save monster?  I mean, if I'm paying that much, that unit had best be a sledgehammer, or maybe a multi-caster.  What is the sorceress?  A 1 cast wizard who also doesn't do good melee damage.  Also, 7 bravery, so you definitely ain't healing her back up with heroic recovery.  WHY?  What purpose does this unit serve?  Like, at all?  I'm pretty sure that for every single sorceress on dragon you put in your army, your winrate drops by at least 5%.

Overall, a lot of the hero's in the Cities are terrible.  I have played with all of the above units (repeatedly).  But even though I love fielding dragons, if I am looking at things objectively, I always struggle to come up with a good reason to run any of the above units.

Yes. It's the old WHFB stats of 4+ to hit on dragons and the d6 damage. They have never updated that. Makes me too worried to run dragons. Swingy in the hit and swingy on the damage. It's a recipe for stuff all damage. Can't rely on the damage and they can't tank so i find it hard to find a role for them in the army as well. The frost phoenix with arcane Tome does everything the dragon should for just 25pts more...and is reliable.

If the dragon just went to 3+ to hit and say base 4 damage on a hit I'd be running them more.. I could even live with the 4+ save and +1 for the shield. There only 300 point moster after all.

The unit I find sitting on the sidelines for me since Aos3 are my pheonix guard.. Which is sad, because there still the best infantry in the game I think. But I won't run them without a pheonix champion for battleshock and they can't go to 30 without becoming battleline. In that situation the phoenix hero is general so you might as well pop a second hero down for the extra command points. So that's a 730 point investment for basically 1 unit and I really struggle to get that in plus build an effective army around it. Well, an effective tourniment army anyway. The points investment now is very large I find.

[readercolin]

14 minutes ago, Thugmullet said:

Yes. It's the old WHFB stats of 4+ to hit on dragons and the d6 damage. They have never updated that. Makes me too worried to run dragons. Swingy in the hit and swingy on the damage. It's a recipe for stuff all damage. Can't rely on the damage and they can't tank so i find it hard to find a role for them in the army as well. The frost phoenix with arcane Tome does everything the dragon should for just 25pts more...and is reliable.

If the dragon just went to 3+ to hit and say base 4 damage on a hit I'd be running them more.. I could even live with the 4+ save and +1 for the shield. There only 300 point moster after all.

The unit I find sitting on the sidelines for me since Aos3 are my pheonix guard.. Which is sad, because there still the best infantry in the game I think. But I won't run them without a pheonix champion for battleshock and they can't go to 30 without becoming battleline. In that situation the phoenix hero is general so you might as well pop a second hero down for the extra command points. So that's a 730 point investment for basically 1 unit and I really struggle to get that in plus build an effective army around it. Well, an effective tourniment army anyway. The points investment now is very large I find.

See, for me I rarely have issue running my phoenix guard.  The annointed on frostheart is already good enough that I have no issue tossing him into just about any list, and making him the general is usually not a huge downside - it definitely doesn't feel like a tax.  And then in addition to having arguably the best hero in the cities, now you get one of the best infantry units unlocked as battleline.

That being said, I might be slightly biased due to having 90 phoenix guard, and I usually start my list off with a frostheart and at least 2 squads of phoenix guard before I add anything else.

[Thugmullet]

1 hour ago, readercolin said:

See, for me I rarely have issue running my phoenix guard.  The annointed on frostheart is already good enough that I have no issue tossing him into just about any list, and making him the general is usually not a huge downside - it definitely doesn't feel like a tax.  And then in addition to having arguably the best hero in the cities, now you get one of the best infantry units unlocked as battleline.

That being said, I might be slightly biased due to having 90 phoenix guard, and I usually start my list off with a frostheart and at least 2 squads of phoenix guard before I add anything else.

Yes. I think your right. Just a phoenix as general and no foot surport for them and save a command point for battleshock. That's seems best way forward. I'm taking the phoenix anyway so that's now down to 525 for the unit. Much more doable. It worries me with no foot hero for surport but it's an extra 200 points for rest of army... So yeah.. Thats prob way forward for using them.

[Yziel]

I'm too new to really have a clue as I have now played one whole game of AoS 😛

One neat thing about the Dreadlord on Dragon is you can shoot his Crossbow and double move with Living Cities which is pretty cool I guess?

He doesn't look fantastic for the points though and I'm sure there's better options.

[Zeblasky]

I'd say that Dragon is quite underestimated. Sure, he is not really tanky, but his damage, while somewhat random, is good on average and can be quite devastating. Just today my dragon charged in and under Titanic Duel finished off Killaboss on Vulcha general, who still had 7 (or 4?) wounds together with his last 6 Gutrippaz of his retinue ( Killaboss passed some of his wounds to them, they all died). Is it way above average for his rolls? Oh yea. But he still basically went through 19/16 3+ wounds. Somehow. Yea, may be my opponent forgot about Mystic Shield at this point and used 4+ save, but I doubt it, he remembered it for shooting attacks. And even then it would be quite impressive. And yes, +1 to hit on him really helps with his randomness and damage in general.

 

By the way, just now I've realised that Dreadlord is pretty good at dueling monsters. One Titanic Duel, one use of Dreadlord CA (can't be roared down, used at the start of Combat Phase) and he has +1 to hit and wound versus chosen Monster target. + 1 to wound is useless for his Jaws most of the time, but it's still good for his other attacks.

(Battle reports are soon to follow btw, probably in Living City thread). 

Edited November 13, 2021 by Zeblasky

[swarmofseals]

On 11/3/2021 at 6:23 AM, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

On a different note: Seeing the new Stormcast Knight-Judicator spam list, I have been wondering if there is any gas in Cities of Sigmar mortal wounds spam. Basically, just overloading the opponent with d3 mortal wounds abilites from a lot of sources, instead of just the occasional little sprinkle of mortals you usually get.

 

I think that Hallowheart is still the best way to field a list like this. You get a massive casting bonus, every wizard as a double caster, and a couple of very good lore spells.

The main problem with a build like this is range. The vast majority of spells have 18" range or less which means that you won't be able to start dealing damage in earnest until turn 2. It'd work fine casually, but competitively not so much. Too many lists in the meta are either extremely good at dealing damage from range >18" (eg: Lumineth, any shooting bridge list, SCE Thunderbolt Volley or Judicator spam lists, Big Yellerz, Seraphon, DoK) or are very strong against chip damage (Sons of Behemat, Soulblight, Ironjawz, Horror Spam, Legion of the First Prince, Archaon, Slaanesh etc.).

It's a powerful concept, but it's really soft to almost everything that is popular at the top of the metagame now.

[JackStreicher]

So the CoS update has been leaked (matched play and parts of open play).

long story short: Don‘t bother. It‘s the very definition of sloppy, uninspired rules writing.

One good thing though: The gryphon mount trait is actually cool

I think the Path to Glory Section and the campaign could be really cool!

Edited November 13, 2021 by JackStreicher

[Zeblasky]

16 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

So the CoS update has been leaked (matched play and parts of open play).

long story short: Don‘t bother. It‘s the very definition of sloppy, uninspired rules writing.

One good thing though: The gryphon mount trait is actually cool

I think the Path to Glory Section and the campaign could be really cool!

Could you please elaborate? Or at least PM the leak pretty please?

[The Red King]

1 hour ago, Zeblasky said:

Could you please elaborate? Or at least PM the leak pretty please?

2 mount traits (gryphon lord can heal d3 and teleport instead of dying on a 2+ once a game and one that makes the black dragons breath on a 5+ instead of a 6)

A useless grand strategy that's just predators domain except enemy faction terrain is worth 3. 

A battle tactic that you score by putting banner bearers near objectives that arent in your terrain (even if if you dont control it) and a battle tactic that can literally only be done by flaggelants.

 

That's it for matched play. 10 dollars for an FAQ and not a good one.

[Zeblasky]

29 minutes ago, The Red King said:

2 mount traits (gryphon lord can heal d3 and teleport instead of dying on a 2+ once a game and one that makes the black dragons breath on a 5+ instead of a 6)

A useless grand strategy that's just predators domain except enemy faction terrain is worth 3. 

A battle tactic that you score by putting banner bearers near objectives that arent in your terrain (even if if you dont control it) and a battle tactic that can literally only be done by flaggelants.

 

That's it for matched play. 10 dollars for an FAQ and not a good one.

Oh yes, this is what I really wanted from Black dragon breath attack all this time. It's not a warcroll change, but still. Gryphon buff is just bunkers though, a free get out of jail card.

You can just take one of those mount traits for free in any city btw, correct? And only one without additional enhancements?

 

I also would not call this grand strategy useless. Specific, sure, but that's a potential 0-9 EXTRA points from your grand strategy. Against certain factions it could win you some tight games.

 

Also, are there any warscroll or point changes? Anything else at all?

Edited November 14, 2021 by Zeblasky

[The Red King]

16 minutes ago, Zeblasky said:

Oh yes, this is what I really wanted from Black dragon breath attack all this time. It's not a warcroll change, but still. Gryphon buff is just bunkers though, a free get out of jail card.

You can just take one of those mount traits for free in any city btw, correct? And only one without additional enhancements?

 

Also, are there any warscroll or point changes? Anything else at all?

Yeah the changes are fine but they both seem like things that could just be in the warscroll and yes you are right about how to take them and no there is nothing else for matched play. 

[Aelfric]

Does a Drakeblood curse count as a mount trait in Anvilguard or can a Black Dragon take both?

[swarmofseals]

6 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

Does a Drakeblood curse count as a mount trait in Anvilguard or can a Black Dragon take both?

Should be able to, yes. AFAIK only things explicitly called mount traits are considered mount traits, and the curses can also be taken on monsters that aren't mounts.

 

[Zeblasky]

54 minutes ago, The Red King said:

Yeah the changes are fine but they both seem like things that could just be in the warscroll and yes you are right about how to take them and no there is nothing else for matched play. 

Oh well, I hoped for a real rule update, but I guess that's okay? It definetly should have been just a warscroll update, but those don't sell White Dwarfs as well.