AoS 3 New Rules Discussion

[CaptainSoup]

So Sprues and Brews posted up their review of the GHB. Most of it is what we already know, though they did mention that there are additional "secondary objectives" to choose from. Some are interesting, while others are either monsters only or gives bonus points if achieved by monsters. 

As a Nighthaunt player it's a bit concerning since we have no monsters outside of our poor overcosted mourngul, giving those armies that do another distinct advantage, as if we needed another reason to suck 🤣

Edited June 23, 2021 by CaptainSoup

[Fyrm]

34 minutes ago, CaptainSoup said:

So Sprues and Brews posted up their review of the GHB. Most of it is what we already know, though they did mention that there are additional "secondary objectives" to choose from. Some are interesting, while others are either monsters only or gives bonus points if achieved by monsters. 

As a Nighthaunt player it's a bit concerning since we have no monsters outside of our poor overcosted mourngul, giving those armies that do another distinct advantage, as if we needed another reason to suck 🤣

My Sylvaneth army might not care, but my DoK army is right there with you. You can ally in some monsters though [and maybe include them in core battalions? Nobody seems to have any answers for that], and there’s also a spell that turns the caster into a monster for the turn. So that helps some. 

[CaptainSoup]

12 minutes ago, Fyrm said:

My Sylvaneth army might not care, but my DoK army is right there with you. You can ally in some monsters though [and maybe include them in core battalions? Nobody seems to have any answers for that], and there’s also a spell that turns the caster into a monster for the turn. So that helps some. 

We can only bring gravelords, which means a single zombie dragon. I guess it's better than nothing, but the fact that some factions have to ally in a unit just to gain access to part of the game seems silly.

[Verminlord]

So am I reading this right? These free battalion abilities say you can "Receive" the command without it being issued. Does this mean you can use "Unleash Hell" more than once in the same phase with the battalion?

Edited June 23, 2021 by Verminlord

[azdimy]

1 minute ago, Verminlord said:

So am I reading this right? These free battalion abilities say you can "Receive" the command without it being issued. Does this mean you can use the Unleash Hell more than once in the same phase with the battalion?

Currently rules a written , I would say yes

[CaptainSoup]

20 minutes ago, Verminlord said:

So am I reading this right? These free battalion abilities say you can "Receive" the command without it being issued. Does this mean you can use "Unleash Hell" more than once in the same phase with the battalion?

Depends if the word "issue" is the same as the word "use."

Issue seems to mean the action of your hero issuing a command to a unit. Slayers says you can use those command abilities once without issuing them or spending points. This means that a single hero can issue Unleash Hell once for free then issue another command as normal. This does not mean however that you can use the same command ability twice in a single phase. The wording between the two page clipings is consistent with this understanding. 

That's my take on it anyway, trying to follow as closely to RAW as possible.

[Eldarain]

The unit received it so it would be the one use of it that phase. It's strength lies in not taking up someone's ability to issue one/if noone is around to issue it and not costing CP.

Edited June 23, 2021 by Eldarain

[BigNStinky]

I would definitely say it doesn't work. As it still stipulates that a command ability cannot be used more than once in a phase which is different keywording than "issued"/received. If they meant issued/received they would have said it that way. This looks pretty airtight to me in that the same command ability just cannot be used in any way twice in the same phase (ergo it can be issued/received but cannot actually be "used" by the receiving unit meaning its effect fizzles).

Edited June 23, 2021 by BigNStinky

[Gailon]

For some reason I thought there was a kind of core battlepack in the core rules. But there isn't? Are there no battle plans in the core rules at all? Or are there just battleplans in the published book, and not the free basic rules? 

[zilberfrid]

6 hours ago, Fred1245 said:

Dice have 6 sides. Inches function in multiples of 6. Whether you like imperial or not, it's very convenient for this one specific thing.

I despise Imperial (or American Standard, which is metrified Imperial). I wouldn't say needing an inch ruler for something makes anything convenient.

[Le Chef]

On 6/17/2021 at 10:16 PM, yukishiro1 said:

Soulsnare shackles looks pretty ridiculous for ranged armies, too. Just straight-up prevents any unit within 6" of any of the 3 models from being able to charge. Er...what?

Where can I find this needs information on the Soulsnare shackles? 

[lare2]

2 hours ago, Gailon said:

For some reason I thought there was a kind of core battlepack in the core rules. But there isn't? Are there no battle plans in the core rules at all? Or are there just battleplans in the published book, and not the free basic rules? 

There are no battleplans in the free rules. I was in GW the other day browsing their display copy of Dominion and if I remember rightly, there were 3 battleplans in there for Matched Play. 

[Beastmaster]

Wouldn’t it be quite easy to have a rule like „All models have at least the reach of the diameter of their bases“? I always thought reach is what the bases represent.

This way, every unit could attack in at least 2 ranks. And reach could be eyeballed easily for quicker combats.

Edited June 23, 2021 by Beastmaster

[yukishiro1]

3 hours ago, Le Chef said:

Where can I find this needs information on the Soulsnare shackles? 

Search youtube for AOS 3.0 endless spells, there's at least one video that goes through them warscroll by warscroll. 

[PJetski]

Let's talk about the Endless Spell changes

Shackles are obviously the standout, blocking run/charge in a huge radius around them is a huge impact on the game. It can backfire and ruin your own plans for holding objectives (especially when Ghur eats the objective you are holding) but if you use it properly it seems absurdly powerful for ranged armies to deny space. It has a cast value 7 but the armies that want this effect are also generally good at casting (or bring a spell in a bottle...) so that's not a big deal. It's also not easy to dispel for most armies.

Lifeswarm heals when it is setup and every time it moves, which means you get two guaranteed activations with it the turn it is cast. Seems pretty good for healing big monsters like a Stardrakes, Magmadroths, etc. Also really good for reviving 1 wound models, or 2-3 wound models depending how lucky you feel.

Geminids deal a small amount of mortal wounds but more importantly they prevent commands from being issued and received by effected units before the next combat phase. This means:

• No Redeploy
• No All Out Defense or All Out Attack in shooting
• No Unleash Hell (!!)
• No commands at all in Movement/Shooting/Charge phases - I'm sure we will be seeing a lot more of these in 3.0 battletomes

The Geminids also effect each unit they pass over and within 1" when they finish moving, so if you position properly you can shut off commands for a whole lot of units.

Prismatic Palisade is easy to cast and blocks all line of sight. It's also fairly easy to dispel, but armies like with low/poor dispels like KO and Fyreslayers are gonna hate this one. A good option to have in the game to ensure shooting metas never get too out of hand (unless they ignore line of sight...)

Suffocating Gravetide went from one of the worst spells to maybe one of the best. It has a much higher threat range and chomps up hordes. It effects each unit it passes over, rolling dice for each model and doing a mortal wound on a 6+. Bad against elite armies, but spectacular against hordes. It also takes up a lot of space so you can stick it in choke points and maybe deny enemy movement - although you can move through endless spells you still can't end a move inside another model. If the meta ever becomes about Stabba/Zombie hordes you better watch out for this one.

The Burning Head is interesting, too. It has a high cast value (7) and dispels itself after it does damage, but it deals D3 mortal wounds to each unit within 1" on a 2+. Think of it like tossing a hand grenade. For only 20 points that's a good ability for +1 wizards.

 

With the Arcane Tome as a universal artefact every army has access to Endless Spells now for a minimal opportunity cost. Fyreslayers can take Lifeswarm to heal up their Magmadroths and revive Hearthguard. You can turn any MONSTER into a WIZARD that casts Arcane Bolt and deal a bunch of mortals on the charge with Arcane Bolt & Stomp together. Add in some charge impact abilities from allegiance/warscrolls and you're looking at a lot of damage before you ever swing a weapon.

[yukishiro1]

Yep, Lifeswarm, Geminids, and Shackles are going to see a lot of play. One thing about Shackles that does tone it down a little bit is that all three pieces now need to be set up wholly w/in 3" of one another, and also wholly w/in 12" of the caster, which essentially means it's basically just one big base now, you can't spread it out any more like you used to be able to. The effective range is now only 18" instead of the 24" it was, and the footprint is massively smaller, so that's something at least.

 

[PJetski]

Another spell that intrigues me is Lauchon the Soulseeker. He can only be used by WIZARDs with a base size <3" in its smallest dimension - so it can't be used by Nagash, Alarielle, Kroak, etc. but you could use it with something like a Lord-Arcanum on Dracoline because they can rotate their base to fit into range.

The spell is set up within 6" of the caster but it doesn't necessarily have to be used by the caster.  Lauchon moves 18" at the end of the hero phase and you must be set up wholly within 3" of him when he finishes - this is a huge range to teleport a WIZARD if you position this properly. You can't move after teleporting with Lauchon, you have to set up >9" away, and you take a mortal wound (but that's not really a big deal).

So which WIZARD with a small enough footprint want to use this kind of teleport? My first thought is Stormcast Evocators that buff themselves in the hero phase and then get a teleport for a 9" charge.

Arcane Tome allows any HERO to become a WIZARD, and in 2021 Matched Play the Ghur spell turns any HERO into a WIZARD - both of these abilities which allows the use of Lauchon. Can you think of any HERO that would want to teleport?

 

In second edition endless spells were treated as friendly models to all players, so I'm not sure what "friendly" means now. The core rules don't state that summoning an endless spell adds it to your army (which makes sense because they can turn wild) so presumably they work like they did in second edition? They need to clarify the relationship between "control" and "friendly".

Potentially you could use this spell is to teleport an enemy WIZARD away. This would be a good way to shove them off objectives or just take them out of range.

Edited June 23, 2021 by PJetski

[Boar]

11 minutes ago, PJetski said:

and in 2021 Matched Play the Ghur spell turns any HERO into a WIZARD

MONSTER, not WIZARD

[PJetski]

1 minute ago, Boar said:

MONSTER, not WIZARD

Woops, brain ****** haha

[stratigo]

On 6/22/2021 at 3:21 PM, SentinelGuy said:

In 6th edition Fantasy, units could only fight in 1 rank unless they had pikes or spears, and 6th was the best edition. The way I see these new coherency rules, is that it's GW realising that they probably should have just stuck with square bases and some semblance of unit formations.

6th Ed highly promoted murder lords in small high damage cav units

[PJetski]

In 2nd edition there was a rule that you couldn't take duplicate artefacts. I can't find any clause in 3rd ed core rules that says you can't take the same artefact more than once.

Fyreslayers can take two Nulsidian Icons on two Battlesmiths and have two chances to ignore spells/endless spells on a 4+.

Kharadron can take two Spell in a Bottle on two Aether-Khemists.

That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure you guys can think of even crazier stacking combos

[SentinelGuy]

56 minutes ago, stratigo said:

6th Ed highly promoted murder lords in small high damage cav units

Never seemed to have much of a problem dealing with them. Artillery and armour piercing/higher strength shooting usually did the trick. Could have used lore of metals, or even just countering them with your own cavalry or great weapon armed troops. Basic tactics like bait and fleeing to set up counter charges, terror bombs, stand and shoot etc. Most units had a single attack each, so small units of cavalry weren't dealing huge damage against large blocks of infantry with ranks and a banner. Half the time you could panic them before they even made it into combat. The lord's weren't that tough in comparison to later editions - there were a few outliers, but mostly they were a little overpriced for standard 2000 point games. 

If anything, 6th edition promoted ranking and flanking, combined arms and actual tactics. 

Edited June 23, 2021 by SentinelGuy

[Ghoooouls]

2 hours ago, PJetski said:

In 2nd edition there was a rule that you couldn't take duplicate artefacts. I can't find any clause in 3rd ed core rules that says you can't take the same artefact more than once.

Fyreslayers can take two Nulsidian Icons on two Battlesmiths and have two chances to ignore spells/endless spells on a 4+.

Kharadron can take two Spell in a Bottle on two Aether-Khemists.

That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure you guys can think of even crazier stacking combos

Core rules 27.3.3 a hero cannot take more than one artefact of power.

Edit reread your post and you mean two different heroes... that is quite funny

Edited June 23, 2021 by Ghoooouls

[readercolin]

2 hours ago, PJetski said:

In 2nd edition there was a rule that you couldn't take duplicate artefacts. I can't find any clause in 3rd ed core rules that says you can't take the same artefact more than once.

Fyreslayers can take two Nulsidian Icons on two Battlesmiths and have two chances to ignore spells/endless spells on a 4+.

Kharadron can take two Spell in a Bottle on two Aether-Khemists.

That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure you guys can think of even crazier stacking combos

All the rules regarding artefacts (that I can find) are in section 27.3 (enhancements).  There are rules that a single hero can't carry more than 1 artefact, but I can't find a single one stating that you can't have the same artefact twice.

I wonder if this is an oversight that is going to get FAQ'd, or if this was intentional.  Because I would totally consider running the arcane tome twice for 2 more casts/dispells in a bunch of my armies.  Heck, 2 armor of destinies would be worth it if you are running a pair of big monstrous hero's who otherwise have no ward save.

[yukishiro1]

Definitely going to be FAQed, a lot of the artefacts in the game really break if you can take more than one. Cloud of midnight, for example.