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Plays Changehost. Doesn't like change.

I'm seeing a lot of discussion of the specific impacts of these new rules, but I'm actually concerned about complexity creep.  With adding Heroic actions, Monstrous actions, generic Prayers, even more

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By the sound of it, the one-drop battalion means one-drop - ie you have to place all units from the battalion down in one go.  If true, this does at least give some deployment advantage to the opponent without a one-drop.

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Core Battalion point costs may be faction-specific. It would make sense for a Seraphon monster battalion to cost more than a Beasts of Chaos monster battalion.

It could also be the case that point costs aren't listed alongside the core rules and are listed alongside the other point costs in the game.

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7 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Thinking about Sons of Behemat, I don't see how they can really do any of the core battalions with 3 Megagargants.  LAME. 

2x Kraken Eater/Gatebreaker

1x Warstomper

3x solo Mancrusher
comes out to exactly 2k points. The warstomper is 10 points less than the kraken eater/gatebreaker so you can make it work, although warstompers are generally seen as the weakest outside stomper tribe.

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12 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

The only armies not going all-in on battle regiments will probably be ones that have mandatory artifacts (like spiderfang) or a non-standard unit composition who can't run it effectively (like SoB and BCR)

We will have to see how that plays out. I don't think it's that clear cut. The benefits of opting out of the drop race entirely are quite good, and some armies don't particularly care about dictating who goes first. And if those armies exits, there is an incentive to maybe optimize drops a little bit to beat them. And if THOSE armies exits, there is incentive to lower drops just a little more... I think that makes it so that the chances we see will armies all along the drop range from 1 to "don't care" actually pretty good.

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Thinking about Sons of Behemat, I don't see how they can really do any of the core battalions with 3 Megagargants.  LAME. 

Surely you can run Linebreaker and Battle Regiment.

EDIT: Make that "or". If Mancrushers stay behemoths, you can run linebreaker. If they lose behemoth when they become battleline, you can run Battle Regiment.

Edited by Neil Arthur Hotep
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1 minute ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

We will have to see how that plays out. I don't think it's that clear cut. The benefits of opting out of the drop race entirely are quite good, and some armies don't particularly care about dictating who goes first. And if those armies exits, there is an incentive to maybe optimize drops a little bit to beat them. And if THOSE armies exits, there is incentive to lower drops just a little more... I think that makes it so that the chances we see will armies all along the drop range from 1 to "don't care" actually pretty good.

I don’t think we will see 1 drop as too few hero slots for most armies and only 5 troops is very limiting with new size rules. Apart from that agreed armies will be all over the spectrum. 

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4 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Surely you can run Linebreaker and Battle Regiment.

I was going to say they mancrushers don't stop being behemoths so you couldn't run battle regiment, but they do, so you actually can't run linebreaker because there are no non-hero monsters in sons of behemat, so they can only run battle regiment.

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8 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said:

I don’t think we will see 1 drop as too few hero slots for most armies and only 5 troops is very limiting with new size rules. Apart from that agreed armies will be all over the spectrum. 

2-drop is super easy though. 2-6 heroes, 4-10 "troops", 0-2 monsters, 0-2 artillery.

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1 minute ago, Ganigumo said:

I was going to say they mancrushers don't stop being behemoths so you couldn't run battle regiment, but they do, so you actually can't run linebreaker because there are no non-hero monsters in sons of behemat, so they can only run battle regiment.

Sons of Behemat guaranteed to be three drop or lower, I guess. Not a bad place to be in.

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3 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Sons of Behemat guaranteed to be three drop or lower, I guess. Not a bad place to be in.

SOB get a lot better with the edition change. All out defense is HUGE on megas, they pick models out of coherency and the new rules make it easier, new monster & leader abilities, more CP and they get to lower their drops. They were already getting some results but they might actually be top tier going into the new edition. Plus they're shielded from point increases because of how the army is already pointed.

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31 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Personally I hate 40k style detachments. It makes listbuilding way more complex and restrictive than it has any right to be and pushes out fun lists by forcing all listbuilding onto rails. Sure it can force lists to look more like some people's interpretation of what an army should look like, but it does that by banning and punishing people for Not Building the kinds of lists 'we' approve of. The mortal realms is a lot more free-form and fantastic than fantasy was, and even more so than 40k is since many armies don't have as rigid a structure. An army of entirely squigs, or Gore-gruntas is not only possible to play with, but also could reasonably exist in the mortal realms.

 

 

I don't necessarily disagree, but the current system wasn't working, or at least it wasn't working fairly. And TBH, those detachments are pretty flexible. My existing armies could easily fit into these battallions and as a NH and Sylvaneth player I appreciate finally having access to an affordable 1 drop list.

This is definitely going to ruffle the feathers of armies who are use to having powerful low-drop battalions at their disposal, but this is a huge buff for lower performing codexes. 

It may limit list building to some degree, but I would prefer GW err on the side of balance over open-ness, at least in matched play. AOS 2nd edition is in pretty rough shape at the competitive level, and this is a step in the right direction IMHO. 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

SOB get a lot better with the edition change. All out defense is HUGE on megas, they pick models out of coherency and the new rules make it easier, new monster & leader abilities, more CP and they get to lower their drops. They were already getting some results but they might actually be top tier going into the new edition. Plus they're shielded from point increases because of how the army is already pointed.

Indeed my stomp is really happy add in the hero and monster actions and new CA and have mega hitting and wounding 2+ with a 3+ save. They could increase points and make people go 2 mega 5 man crusher but I don’t think they will. Maybe just remove a few points so SoB don’t get solo mancrushers or endless spell etc. 

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12 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

2-drop is super easy though. 2-6 heroes, 4-10 "troops", 0-2 monsters, 0-2 artillery.

I like that, actually. Almost any list can decide to 2 drop easily, just at the cost of passing up the bonuses from Warlord. 1 drop requires making some concessions, but is possible if you really want to push for it. 3 drop will probably be rare, but 4 drop will be another jump point because you can pick up an artefact from Command Entourage and shove everything else into a Battle Regiment.

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1 minute ago, Landohammer said:

I don't necessarily disagree, but the current system wasn't working, or at least it wasn't working fairly. And TBH, those detachments are pretty flexible. My existing armies could easily fit into these battallions and as a NH and Sylvaneth player I appreciate finally having access to an affordable 1 drop list.

This is definitely going to ruffle the feathers of armies who are use to having powerful low-drop battalions at their disposal, but this is a huge buff for lower performing codexes. 

It may limit list building to some degree, but I would prefer GW err on the side of balance over open-ness, at least in matched play. AOS 2nd edition is in pretty rough shape at the competitive level, and this is a step in the right direction IMHO. 

 

 

Lower performing armies had bigger issues than the number of drops. Like the fact that their warscrolls are often bad or their allegiance abilities are ineffective. These changes do nothing to help Gitz, Khorne or BoC (who all had access to very low or 1 drop options), but actively help Seraphon (possibly lumineth? I don't know them that well) and Tzeentch was doing well with non-changehost lists too. Hosts arcanum Archaon can now one-drop if it wants to, and that was a very competitive list. Battle Regiment means pretty much every army can do at most 2 drops, which means your allegiance abilities and warscrolls matter more, and you better hope you don't have an artifact you need to be competitive or your subfactions let you pick an artifact.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I like that, actually. Almost any list can decide to 2 drop easily, just at the cost of passing up the bonuses from Warlord. 1 drop requires making some concessions, but is possible if you really want to push for it. 3 drop will probably be rare, but 4 drop will be another jump point because you can pick up an artefact from Command Entourage and shove everything else into a Battle Regiment.

The issue now is going to be that drops are mostly dictated by how important it is for you to get an extra artifact.

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3 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I already have a friend who's griping about his Tzeentch Horror Spam Changehost is in jeopardy :D

I won't miss that army if it goes or....changes!

NO JOKE! I'm going to a tournament tomorrow and there is at least one Changehost that will be there. Hoping I dodge that pairing. 

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4 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I already have a friend who's griping about his Tzeentch Horror Spam Changehost is in jeopardy :D

I won't miss that army if it goes or....changes!

Plays Changehost.

Doesn't like change.

image.png.b4e6fe02f474b74c500fd38a79cc75e4.png

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42 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said:

I don’t think we will see 1 drop as too few hero slots for most armies and only 5 troops is very limiting with new size rules. Apart from that agreed armies will be all over the spectrum. 

I'm pretty sure there are a coupe of powerful armies right now that are using 3 or less heroes, thinking most of the IDK, OBR, Lumineth, Tzeentch, DoK(sneks) and KO lists are hardly going heavy on heroes.

If I was playing most of those armies, who was taking a batalion to primarily to get down to 1-2 drop I really wouldn't be all that worried about my list changing that much and depending on points, maybe actually squeezing more stuff in.

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10 minutes ago, Warfiend said:

I'm very happy with all the changes. 

Personally feel the game currently is in the worst state it's ever been.

 

Yeah but is the problem the core rules or the broken battletomes?

We also haven't gotten a proper rebalancing for any army released since january of 2020 (which includes pretty much all the top tier armies). Tzeentch, KO, and Seraphon got off easy in the summer 2020 GHB, then we didn't get an update at all in december of 2020.

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14 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Do we know if allied units will be able to count towards Core Battalions or not?  If not I don't think we'll be seeing too much of Kragnos being used at all.

Kragnos does not count as an ally he is just part of the army. So he can be put in any Commander spot. 

Edited by Envyus
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5 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Personally I hate 40k style detachments. It makes listbuilding way more complex and restrictive than it has any right to be and pushes out fun lists by forcing all listbuilding onto rails. Sure it can force lists to look more like some people's interpretation of what an army should look like, but it does that by banning and punishing people for Not Building the kinds of lists 'we' approve of. The mortal realms is a lot more free-form and fantastic than fantasy was, and even more so than 40k is since many armies don't have as rigid a structure. An army of entirely squigs, or Gore-gruntas is not only possible to play with, but also could reasonably exist in the mortal realms.

 

What? 40K list building gives you MORE freedom than AoS does. The only real requirement is you must have 1-2 leaders/HQ but otherwise can take whatever you want by choosing the right detachment. If you don’t take one of the 3 troops based ones though you get less CP as a tax for that choice 

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