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All Heroic and Monstrous abilities should have the "Their Finest Hour" clause. Heroic Recovery slogfests ruin lower point games and warp 2000 point meta lists. 

I don't have a lot of other complaints for the edition because I feel like I need more experience, but this one seems real obvious. 

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On 6/28/2021 at 4:57 PM, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

It says you get to trigger it in "any 1 phase" in the rules text. So not multiple times, I would say.

That is of course correct, hot damn imagine Nagash if this was not the case, hilarious xD

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On 8/30/2021 at 9:58 AM, Nasrod said:

All Heroic and Monstrous abilities should have the "Their Finest Hour" clause. Heroic Recovery slogfests ruin lower point games and warp 2000 point meta lists. 

I don't have a lot of other complaints for the edition because I feel like I need more experience, but this one seems real obvious. 

I'd like to see Heroic Recovery have a once per game, I'm running Nagash right now and healing d3 each hero phase, + own hero phase healing, + soulstealer is mad amount of healing on a very resilient model. 

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Heroic Recovery seems broken on some and basically worthless on most other heroes. The abuse case seems to be defensive 3+ save HERO MONSTERs with high Bravery that use HR every turn to stay healthy in combat for the entire game.

It's strange that you can make Recovery moves while in the thick of combat... it seems more like the sort of thing you would be doing as a defensive maneuver and not while enemies are beating your face.

Furthermore, I don't like that a bravery check is involved. I like that it makes Bravery a relevant stat for Heroes (there are other ways to make it relevant) but it just seems like an unnecessary punishment for some armies with lower bravery.

I would propose the following change:

1. Heroic Recovery always heals 1. No bravery check required.

2. If there are no enemy units within 3" of that HERO they can heal D3 instead.

3. After using Heroic Recovery, for the rest of the turn that HERO cannot run or charge and has -1 to hit rolls.

 

Edited by PJetski
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IMO the best thing they could do is just not let you use heroic actions on monster heroes, except for the CP generating one. Monsters get monstrous actions; non-monstrous heroes get heroic actions. Most of the balance problems in the game go away or are seriously mitigated, and you now have an actual tradeoff between monstrous and non-monstrous heroes, instead of the monster ones just being no-brainers that largely obsolete the non-monstrous ones. 

Put a special rider on Gotrek too preventing him from using heroic recovery (but not from using best day - he's a slayer, he doesn't try to stay alive but having his best day ever is the most slayerish thing ever) and there you go, 3.0's now in a much better state balance-wise, though save stacking probably still needs a nerf too. 

 

Edited by yukishiro1
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3 hours ago, PJetski said:

Heroic Recovery seems broken on some and basically worthless on most other heroes. The abuse case seems to be defensive 3+ save HERO MONSTERs with high Bravery that use HR every turn to stay healthy in combat for the entire game.

It's strange that you can make Recovery moves while in the thick of combat... it seems more like the sort of thing you would be doing as a defensive maneuver and not while being are beating your face.

Furthermore, I don't like that a bravery check is involved. I like that it makes Bravery a relevant stat for Heroes (there are other ways to make it relevant) but it just seems like an unnecessary punishment for some armies with lower bravery.

I would propose the following change:

1. Heroic Recovery always heals 1. No bravery check required.

2. If there are no enemy units within 3" of that HERO they can heal D3 instead.

3. After using Heroic Recovery, for the rest of the turn that HERO cannot run or charge and has -1 to hit rolls.

 

Heroic Recovery it sort of compounded by save stacking as well, 3+ hero save monster / heroes now can reliably get to a 1+ with mystic shield / all out defence, so not only are they very hard to kill but they healing 2d3 per battle round. 

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They can't get a "1+" though can they, as, without adding in any rend, you can only have a net +1 to your armour save. So AoD and Mystic shield is a waste unless suffering from at least -1 rend. Although I will say that the sudden increase in stuff that gets to 2+ I don't think is a benefit to the game. 

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1 minute ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

They can't get a "1+" though can they, as, without adding in any rend, you can only have a net +1 to your armour save. So AoD and Mystic shield is a waste unless suffering from at least -1 rend. Although I will say that the sudden increase in stuff that gets to 2+ I don't think is a benefit to the game. 

Yes.. that's the whole point of save stacking. Starting a 3+ means you can very easily be on a 2+ save ignoring rend -1. With their finest hour you can ignore rend -2 at a critical point. Rend -2 isn't very common so we're in a position where most 3+ monsters are on 2+s, and models like Archaon & Nagash can re-roll their 1s to save. 

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16 minutes ago, Arathorn185 said:

Wait saving stacking a thing in AOS/only hit/wound modifiers cannot be modified mire than once?

That's correct, but extra save bonuses effectively negate rend.

It works like this: If you have +2 to saves, and the opponent has rend '-', when you go to determine your actual save bonus you see it's higher than +1. Since the cap is +1, that's all you get. But if you have +2 to saves and the opponent has rend -1, you add them up and are still left with a bonus of +1 to saves. Effectively, this is very nearly as good as save stacking for models on a 3+ base save, since after reacthing 2+ they are only worried about rend.

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15 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

That's correct, but extra save bonuses effectively negate rend.

It works like this: If you have +2 to saves, and the opponent has rend '-', when you go to determine your actual save bonus you see it's higher than +1. Since the cap is +1, that's all you get. But if you have +2 to saves and the opponent has rend -1, you add them up and are still left with a bonus of +1 to saves. Effectively, this is very nearly as good as save stacking for models on a 3+ base save, since after reacthing 2+ they are only worried about rend.

Yeah exactly as Neil said, it does the work same with hit roll modifiers as well, you can have +2 to your roll and if you were -1 to hit, you would still receive a net +1 to the hit roll. Save stacking is more apparent as rend is a very common and universal rule, so being able to negate by stacking saves with the many new ways we can do it in AoS 3 (Mystic Shield, All out Defence & Their Finest Hour) makes them 3+ base monster/heroes incredibly hard to shift which is further compounded by Heroic Recovery, as often the big names have a high bravery and are reliably healing D3 wounds every hero phase. 

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It's strange that there are so many universal ways to stack saves, but almost no ways (outside of niche abilities in certain tomes) to stack Rend. I suppose it's the sort of thing they can always introduce in future GHBs as the game shifts to other realms.

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2 hours ago, Kadeton said:

It's strange that there are so many universal ways to stack saves, but almost no ways (outside of niche abilities in certain tomes) to stack Rend. I suppose it's the sort of thing they can always introduce in future GHBs as the game shifts to other realms.

Well I mean having -2 rend is psuedo "stacking -2 to the opponents save roll"

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20 minutes ago, AaronWilson said:

Well I mean having -2 rend is psuedo "stacking -2 to the opponents save roll"

Yes, but that's just the Rend on your weapon profile, much like the Save on your warscroll.

On top of that Save, there's universal stuff like Mystic Shield, All-Out Defence and Finest Hour, to create a "stack".

On top of most units' base Rend, there's... ******-all, really. What I'm hoping to see in future are universal ways to spend limited resources (e.g. command abilities, spell casts, etc) to gain additional Rend and make units temporarily better at breaking through armour.

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7 hours ago, Kadeton said:

It's strange that there are so many universal ways to stack saves, but almost no ways (outside of niche abilities in certain tomes) to stack Rend. I suppose it's the sort of thing they can always introduce in future GHBs as the game shifts to other realms.

That's something that they need to explore, and it seems that 3.0 it's the perfect edition for that!

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BoC have 3 negative separate save modifiers (Herdstone, Tendrils of Atrophy Spell, Sundering Blades Spell). I can see these working well for us in 3.0. It would be good to see more armies with access to stuff like this. I think the biggest advantage is that giving something a rend modifier is that it's easily written into rules without totally knackering everything else. It's an existing core mechanic, so it wouldn't take much effort to implement, and just making this more accessible avoids 'have and have not' battletomes being created.

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