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AoS 3 New Rules Discussion


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8 hours ago, Zeblasky said:

You know, I am quite more inclined to agree with you here, but I also try to contemplate the other side of the coin. Certain god characters are hard to kill without a lot of concentrated firepower, this is a fact. Is that bad for the game balance? Does this makes winning versus them too hard, does this makes them unbalanced? Because as of right now, this is unclear. Before, they were dying too fast to pay for themself. Now, you need a lot of firepower, but, well, you can also ignore a god model, kill its army, tarpit it with chaff and just dominate on points anyway. So, you have 2 ways to deal with a situation, and as of now it is unclear if god models can kill enough stuff in 5 rounds to win games basically on their own.

And yes, if you would make 3+ save as a limit for everyone without a better base save, even my personal build, which is not that focused on alpha strike (living city with 40 sisters and 1 dreadlord deepstriking) could with a certain guarantee kill Archaon within a single turn, first or second, does not really matter in this case. And that's it, I used half of my army here, but I've removed half of my enemy army with only a very few losses, which probably means instant GG from that point, as my forces will be able to probably table my enemy by a 3 round. And my army is not focused that much on alpha strike, you can push it quite higher. I still can try to do this even now btw, with a first turn alpha, but due to All out Defence in both Shooting and Combat phase from a Chaos palyer it's quite more risky, as I would deal only 18.4 damage to Archaon on average (with using All out attack twice as well). So, unless I get a great rolls on MW or on a Dreadlord, I probably won't kill him as of now, but hey, call alpha the hell out of Nagash, heh. And this is just a single example.

For me personally I am more concerned about units that are extremely point efficient with a +2 save like Blood Knights at the moment though. Such units can be everywhere, cap objectives, kill a lot of stuff while being too hard to kill.

 

 

Every 3 plus save monster hero is hard to kill with anything but mass mortal wounds, not just god characters.

 

But, roll up 40 sisters against any 3 plus save hero monster in the game and see what happens. I guarantee the results aren't gonna be what you think

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Do wizards "know" the summoning spell to setup endless spells? There's nothing in the core rules to suggest that they learn the spell like they did in 2nd edition

I found the clause in 19.0 - "In addition, a Wizard knows all of the spells on their warscroll and on the warscrolls of endless spells (see 19.3) in the same army as them."

Edited by PJetski
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9 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:


I'm not sure your math is factoring in best day, or that if you go second he likely has another +1 to save from arcane shield and/or oracular visions, meaning he's now on a 2+ ignoring rend 2, so saving everything in your army on a 2+ (with a 4+ for the mortals). Unless I'm missing a big something, 40 sisters + a dreadlord isn't putting out close to enough damage to kill Archaon through even the 2+ ignoring rend 1 that he can get from just best day and all out defense, much less if he's ignoring rend 2 also. Did you factor in that Ed Sheeran's Eye forces you to reroll 6s to hit, where your mortals come from on the sisters? That makes a huge difference to the math.

 

I've said that with 3+ save max I could kill him in any turn. And as of right now I can try to kill him if I would go for a round 1 turn 1 alpha strike, before he gets any buff stacking on himself, as I've said already in previous post. I admit I did forget to include rerolling 6 to hit in my calculations, which would probably make my average damage around 3 wounds lower, but Sisters deal MW on 6 to WOUND, which, as it seems, is so unique, that everyone keeps forgetting this little detail x) Although going second while hoping for a double turn and just drowning Archaon in no rend shooting attacks and MWs seems like a better stratedy. But honestly, I can easily add Hurricanum in my list, and that would make alpha strike to have a much better guarantee to finish Archaon off, but I digress, this is not the poing.

The main point here is that with 3+ save god models are too easy to kill, with 2+ you really need to go for a strong alpha strike setup to kill them in 1 turn and prevent regen, otherwise you've just wasted all that damage. And with 2+ stacked save certain models become unkillable, but in turn the rest of their army can be wiped out quite effectively.

 

Removing any synergies from too big models though... At one points, it definetly does make balancing much easier. At another, it kinda makes game a bit more shallow? It would also create a feeling of big models not belonging in your army and just doing their own thing, like an ally.

 

My pesonal solution though would be something like simply giving god models 4+ save and doubling their wounds (probably together with removing save stacking). That way you can still try to focus fire them and you can still try to heal them as much as you can, but effectiveness of both would be diminished. You could not burst a god within a single turn or even round, but gods in turn could not heal all of damage done right back up. In other words, god model owner is not afraid of losing model too fast, and other player won't feel like he's completely wasting his damage on a piece that heals wounds faster that you can deal them. 

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10 hours ago, stratigo said:

But, roll up 40 sisters against any 3 plus save hero monster in the game and see what happens. I guarantee the results aren't gonna be what you think

21 wounds on average without any buffs. A bit swingy either way due to MW rolls (in my practice you can roll from 2 to 8), but due to 82 rolls from 2 units, it mostly averages out. So yea, those girls are scary. Damage wise there were the most cost efficient unit in CoS in AoS 2.0 without buffs, so 3+ save expensive monsters are their primary food. 2+ is problematic though, that cuts them down to 15 wounds dealt. Still enough to kill almost any hero monster in one go (without the Amulet of Destiny or any other ward of course), but you still have to protect them afterwards.

Edited by Zeblasky
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Is that the math if you're assuming the Archaon player isn't going to Finest Hour in addition to All Out Defense? Because that gives him a 3+ with +2 to save, which is putting him to a 2+ vs the sisters shots. With that, my napkin math says its more like 12-13 wounds, not 21. 

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11 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

Is that the math if you're assuming the Archaon player isn't going to Finest Hour in addition to All Out Defense? Because that gives him a 3+ with +2 to save, which is putting him to a 2+ vs the sisters shots. With that, my napkin math says its more like 12-13 wounds, not 21. 

This was not the answer at all relevant to our discussion. Stratego asked how much damage they do versus 3+ save, I replied.

Edited by Zeblasky
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Well, what I was trying to say is that I think he meant with the +2 to save any of them can get from Best Day and All Out Defense. Not just the 3+ in the abstract. I mean if you start those sisters off the board presumably the Archaon player is going to realize what is about to happen and Best Day from the beginning of the first battle round, and then you can't alpha him whether you go first or not. 

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5 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

Well, what I was trying to say is that I think he meant with the +2 to save any of them can get from Best Day and All Out Defense. Not just the 3+ in the abstract. I mean if you start those sisters off the board presumably the Archaon player is going to realize what is about to happen and Best Day from the beginning of the first battle round, and then you can't alpha him whether you go first or not. 

Is this (using Finest Hour pre-emptively at the start of the opponent's first turn to mitigate a potential alpha-strike) something people are actually doing in practice? I guess I'd be very surprised if my opponent chose to do this - I'd then quite happily spend the turn attacking any other valuable targets and ignore the buffed hero. They've burned their one-shot Finest Hour on their biggest hero, and got none of the offensive benefits from it. While they've avoided the alpha strike on that specific hero, the Finest Hour buff hasn't actually impacted my overall damage output. Just seems like a waste to me!

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If you didn't do it against a list that was clearly set up to alpha strike Archaon T1 and would be capable of killing him without it, you'd be making a very foolish choice. Finest Hour is almost always about defense, the +1 to wound is rarely significant - and you get the bonus on your own turn anyway assuming he survives, it's not like it's completely wasted. The biggest strength of Finest Hour is it allows you to put a + to save onto a character before you get a turn to cast, use abilities, etc. It potentially has more value T1 if you aren't going first than any other time in the game, especially in an Archaon list. 

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9 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

If you didn't do it against a list that was clearly set up to alpha strike Archaon T1 and would be capable of killing him without it, you'd be making a very foolish choice.

Yeah, that does make sense. As I said, it keeps Archaon alive... but an army that can alpha-strike Archaon off the board in turn 1 is just going to turn their attention to wiping the entire non-Archaon portion of your army off the table instead? Or they just hold their attack back, and kill Archaon on turn 2 instead. It seems like you're always going to struggle against that.

9 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

Finest Hour is almost always about defense, the +1 to wound is rarely significant - and you get the bonus on your own turn anyway assuming he survives, it's not like it's completely wasted.

No, you don't. The bonus lasts until the end of the turn, not the round.

9 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

The biggest strength of Finest Hour is it allows you to put a + to save onto a character before you get a turn to cast, use abilities, etc. It potentially has more value T1 if you aren't going first than any other time in the game, especially in an Archaon list. 

Yeah, I'm going to have to start thinking about it differently! I've seen it primarily as an offensive buff that I want to use on the turn my hero charges into combat (I totally disagree that +1 to wound is "rarely significant") which also happens to give them some extra protection (mostly nice because it means you can use All-Out Attack instead of All-Out Defence, capitalising on the bonus to wound). But if you can pick the right time to use it defensively it sounds like it would be very powerful, as a deterrent from attacking that hero at all that turn if nothing else.

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Oh hey, you're right, it does only last for the turn, guess we've been playing that wrong. Would still do it in a heartbeat to keep something alive from an alpha. +1 to wound might be important for some stuff I guess, but none of the Gods care a lot about it - Archaon often rerolls wounds on 3s, rerolling on 2s instead is a pretty marginal gain; same for Gotrek, the spellcasters don't have strong enough melee profiles for it to matter much, etc. It's a pretty rare character that does actually get a lot of use out of the +1 to wound, characters aren't usually built for doing efficient damage and if they are usually they wound on 2s already and/or have rerolls. 

The other reason using Finest Hour T1 is attractive is because it isn't competing with the heal the way it is in later turns. AOS is such a frontloaded game compared to WHFB or 40k that IMO anything you can do to boost your survivability T1 is usually worth doing. 

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5 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

It's a pretty rare character that does actually get a lot of use out of the +1 to wound, characters aren't usually built for doing efficient damage and if they are usually they wound on 2s already and/or have rerolls.

My perspective is warped by main-lining Beastclaw Raiders. Frostlords absolutely love using Finest Hour offensively. :)

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  • 1 month later...
4 minutes ago, Howdyhedberg said:

What FAQ is it that people are complaining about in the rumors thread? All of them? The core book? Ghb 2021? A particular army?

 

Btw, if they make a faq to the ghb, will that cover the pitched battle profiles too? (I'm wondering about that loreseeker).

I think it's the GHB :) It may include more clarification and also some changes to points under second thoughts - e.g. if they think Archaon may be a bit much, they may do an emergency increase  

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4 hours ago, Howdyhedberg said:

What FAQ is it that people are complaining about in the rumors thread? All of them? The core book? Ghb 2021? A particular army?

 

Btw, if they make a faq to the ghb, will that cover the pitched battle profiles too? (I'm wondering about that loreseeker).

It's the GHB generally, and yes, that does include pitched battle profiles, so the LS should become 100% clarified, and we might see more point changes. That could be one reason why it takes longer, so they have some time to look into the points, after seeing a few tournament results. : )  

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Hey guys,

Not sure if this is the right place for this question or if it's already been covered 

Can multiple units of sisters of the watch use unleash hell in the same phase? And could a unit get unleash hell and all out attack in the same phase

From the faq

Page 125 – Sisters of the Watch, Loose Until The Last
Change the rule to:
‘If an enemy unit finishes a charge move within 3" of this unit, this 
unit can receive the Unleash Hell command without the command 
being issued and without a command point being spent.’

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Yeah just saw that, it's what I get for posting a question the day before FAQs drop

I'm a little gutted it's a bit of a nerd to that unit, I used to run 2-3 10 man units and use the as a charge deterrent. Now only 1 unit per turn will be effective and at -1 to hit

Oh well thems the breaks, still a unit I'll use in my aelf cities 

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14 hours ago, Blair said:

Yeah just saw that, it's what I get for posting a question the day before FAQs drop

I'm a little gutted it's a bit of a nerd to that unit, I used to run 2-3 10 man units and use the as a charge deterrent. Now only 1 unit per turn will be effective and at -1 to hit

Oh well thems the breaks, still a unit I'll use in my aelf cities 

I think it just changes how those units are utilized. Now you want to run a large reinforced unit that acts as bait for charges that allows for strategic counter-charges after the opponent is softened on the way in. Utilizing the hurricanum to offset the penalty also makes them operate similarly to how they did before. It's not perfect, but strategies always change with every new addition to the game.

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