AoS 3 New Rules Discussion

[Andalf]

2 hours ago, Fred1245 said:

@Andalf You put forward the idea of every army being much more cookie-cutter as a positive thing. Generally it is not considered as such.

 

You see cookie cutter, I see endless combinations.  It’s not my fault a Vampire Lord and Belladamma are 340 points and a Lyrior Uthralle and a Cathallar is 355, or a Lord Arcanum on Gryph charger and Knight Incantor for the same.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Andalf

[Doko]

5 hours ago, Frowny said:

Selective nerfs to Irondrakes

This unit is very diferent to others as sentinels or snake archers.

Irondrakes get hitted with the -1 hit of overwatch where others units no(mortal wounds on 6)

Irondrakes do 100% less damage if a unit end in melle where others no.

So irondrakes have MANY counterplays as being slow,cant move,cant have units in melle,and havent tye mortals with 6 so suffer of hit penaltys.

If someone have problems with irondrakes is because he dont know how play, compare irondrakes with sentinels or snakes is a biiig joke. 16" range and cant move against units with 36"......

Also  melles are crying about the 80 tax to use expendable units in unleash hell but irondrakes need 300+ points in screen if want use unleah hell and dont enemys in melle.

Btw city of sigmar have as 4 better units than irondrakes in point per damage done as pistolliers,crossbowmen,sisters......

[yukishiro1]

Yeah, especially now that bridge is nerfed, there's really no excuse for getting blown up by irondrakes. They are an example of a strong but fair ranged unit, as compared to something like Sentinels that's just a disaster from a design perspective. 

[PJetski]

If Unleash Hell is broken because it makes Sentinels too strong then maybe the problem is with Sentinels and not Unleash Hell

[novakai]

(IMO) is more like they should probably not design range units to proc MW on hits, should probably change them to work on wound roll instead so neg to hit actually matters

[Boar]

5 hours ago, novakai said:

(IMO) is more like they should probably not design range units to proc MW on hits, should probably change them to work on wound roll instead so neg to hit actually matters

Strongly depends on maximum damage and number of shots I think. Gunhauler with Drill Cannon trigger MW on 5+, and 3MW at that. However it's all it got really, so on some sort of special/novelty weapons it works fine.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

40 minutes ago, Boar said:

Strongly depends on maximum damage and number of shots I think. Gunhauler with Drill Cannon trigger MW on 5+, and 3MW at that. However it's all it got really, so on some sort of special/novelty weapons it works fine.

You are right, of course, but I believe @novakai was probably thinking of infantry units that can throw around the weight of their large number of dice to make mortals on hit consistent. In which case, I think generally not giving out mortals on hit would be good, just because it bypasses all the usual shooting penalties (+to saves from cover, -1 to hit from Look Out, Sir, cover and Unleash Hell). It's just so immensely valuable for shooting units in a way that it's not for melee units.

I think one of the big problems with these kinds of units is that the basic mechanics of AoS just don't have room for incremental debuffs to their mortal wound output. If they deal them on 6s to hit, that's it. The mechanics don't have room for a tool that would allow the opponent to, say, cut that damage in half. If Lumineth Sentinel mortals scaled with penalties to hit (-1 to hit means a third less damage or whatever), I think the unit would be vastly more managable. But short of giving all armies the ability to grant a unit a 4+ ward against ranged attacks, I don't see how this kind of scaling could possibly be implemented.

[Zappgrot]

7 hours ago, PJetski said:

If Unleash Hell is broken because it makes Sentinels too strong then maybe the problem is with Sentinels and not Unleash Hell

Unleash hell is also not fun whit other shooting units. But it's way worse on units that do mw on a to hit roll cause it makes the -1 pointless.  But to be honest i think the worst offenders might be the FEC. Thier ld based shooting doesn't even roll to hit. Unleash hell is just a free shooting attack for them. Charging low LD troops into crypt flyers is suicide.  Meaning that FEC can be verry lose whit placement against low ld armies 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Zappgrot

[Liquidsteel]

A ranged unit dishing out Mortals on the hit roll is just a poor design choice, when the protections against such shooting has always been hit penalties (look out sir, garrisons, unleash hell).

Sentinels just exacerbate this when you consider they can boost this to a 5+ and can also combo it with Lambent Light for full hit re-rolls in both shooting and now the charge phases.

20 with lambent light will generally kill off a 14 wound hero a turn no problem, said hero likely being nearly double their points cost, which just feels bad whichever way you try to justify it. Unleash hell giving them more opportunities to shoot is going to be so frustrating.

 

[zilberfrid]

18 hours ago, PJetski said:

Why do you consider this to be a problem? 

We have a unit that can reign death in an area about half the battlefield without counterplay (except ward saves).

If you want to engage them in melee, they get to shoot you down again, with a very hard counterplay that isn't available to all melee armies (Fyreslayers, Khorne come to mind).

Either up the points cost of that shooting unit to reflect this (in this case, about double should do), rewrite their warscroll, or rewrite the CA's.

[Greybeard86]

18 hours ago, PJetski said:

I did not suggest that it was or was not a problem; I asked why they consider it to be a problem. 

Should counterplay be easier and more reliable than the strategies they are countering? Would the game be better if unbinding and dispelling was as easy - or even easier - than casting the spells? Would it be more fun?

People are talking about Unleash Hell like the only unit in the game is Lumineth Sentinels.

Those are good questions.

For me, the answer is that the difficulty (and scope for counterplay) of a move should be in direct relation to its impact. Otherwise, players can feel powerless while the opponent decimates you and the game becomes more about alpha striking and trading units.

The problem with unleash hell is that it is very devastating and supremely easy to execute, yet there is little counterplay.

Shooting in AoS is a leading cause of NPE because: i) not all armies have good shooting, ii) there is little to no terrain to hide, iii) double turn, iv) sniping is too good and too easy, v) shooting bows into combat / at combat engaged units is counterintuitive to common wargaming.

[Legatus Seneca]

Since indeed all discussion on unleash hell center around the Sentinels, it does stand to reason, that they need the fix- not the core rules. The issue seems also not to be the unit or it’s rules. The “get 1 wizard free of charge” and “on top, double your mortal wounds output for as many units as you like” for the spell are the main offenders here. 
An easy fix would be to add something that also addresses the magic supremacy issue in other lists. Bring back Dispel Scrolls. Easy, effective and does away with outliers. It’s an expensive insurance, but gives you a break, when and where needed. And pretty much in line making reactions stronger in the game. Heck, just create a new reaction, costing a CP, which gives you a bonus to an unbind roll (+ 2 ?). 

[Warbossironteef]

Are we waiting for a FAQ or has it been confirmed that if you have multiple Generals (Soulblight), do you get multiple Command Points at the start of the Hero Phase? 

[KrispyXIV]

17 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:

Are we waiting for a FAQ or has it been confirmed that if you have multiple Generals (Soulblight), do you get multiple Command Points at the start of the Hero Phase? 

It's pretty clear in the rules as written that if you have a (any) general(s), you receive one command point. 

It would require significant errata and actual changes to the rules for multiple generals to grant multiple command points. 

Multiple generals provides redundancy for this purpose, however. 

Edited June 29, 2021 by KrispyXIV

[PJetski]

22 minutes ago, Legatus Seneca said:

Since indeed all discussion on unleash hell center around the Sentinels, it does stand to reason, that they need the fix- not the core rules. The issue seems also not to be the unit or it’s rules. The “get 1 wizard free of charge” and “on top, double your mortal wounds output for as many units as you like” for the spell are the main offenders here. 
An easy fix would be to add something that also addresses the magic supremacy issue in other lists. Bring back Dispel Scrolls. Easy, effective and does away with outliers. It’s an expensive insurance, but gives you a break, when and where needed. And pretty much in line making reactions stronger in the game. Heck, just create a new reaction, costing a CP, which gives you a bonus to an unbind roll (+ 2 ?). 

An even easier fix is to errata the Sentinel warscroll so that Sunmetal Weapons only deals mortal wounds in the shooting phase.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

10 minutes ago, PJetski said:

An even easier fix is to errata the Sentinel warscroll so that Sunmetal Weapons only deals mortal wounds in the shooting phase.

I think this is the most likely change we can expect. I believe that GW fully intends to keep Sentinels the way they are in the shooting phase, for better or worse. I think they want them to be a powerful shooting unit that breaks the usual rules. I just hope GW does not believe they should therefor automatically get to circumvent the hit penalty from Unleash Hell as well.

[SentinelGuy]

23 minutes ago, PJetski said:

An even easier fix is to errata the Sentinel warscroll so that Sunmetal Weapons only deals mortal wounds in the shooting phase.

^ this and increase their points by at least 25.

[Boar]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I think this is the most likely change we can expect.

If new article is portent of things to come, than unfortunately it won't happen

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/06/29/bright-sparks-the-lumineth-realm-lords-shine-in-the-new-edition/

Bryan: Reinforced units of Vanari Sentinels can make excellent use of the Unleash Hell command ability, which can be issued by their unit champion. With Heightened Senses from Aetherquartz, they’ll be shooting without a negative modifier, and the Power of Hysh spell increases the chance of causing mortal wounds – definitely enough to make chargers think twice.

[Greybeard86]

11 minutes ago, Boar said:

If new article is portent of things to come, than unfortunately it won't happen

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/06/29/bright-sparks-the-lumineth-realm-lords-shine-in-the-new-edition/

Bryan: Reinforced units of Vanari Sentinels can make excellent use of the Unleash Hell command ability, which can be issued by their unit champion. With Heightened Senses from Aetherquartz, they’ll be shooting without a negative modifier, and the Power of Hysh spell increases the chance of causing mortal wounds – definitely enough to make chargers think twice.

Well I'll be darned. That is not reading the room well, if you ask me. As if Sentinels weren't getting enough hate, GW highlights them in the "hYpee!!! machine", in conjunction with one of the most contentious rules. 🍿🍿🍿🍿

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

13 minutes ago, Boar said:

If new article is portent of things to come, than unfortunately it won't happen

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/06/29/bright-sparks-the-lumineth-realm-lords-shine-in-the-new-edition/

Bryan: Reinforced units of Vanari Sentinels can make excellent use of the Unleash Hell command ability, which can be issued by their unit champion. With Heightened Senses from Aetherquartz, they’ll be shooting without a negative modifier, and the Power of Hysh spell increases the chance of causing mortal wounds – definitely enough to make chargers think twice.

I kinda expected my take on this to be invalidated almost immediately when the FAQ comes out, but I did not think the community article would do it even before then, haha.

[Enoby]

I do wonder how Illithia will interact with unleash hell; from memory, you get to double up a command ability. Two units of 30 sentinels unleashing hell? I can't imagine much would survive that 

[C0deb1ue]

....I just don't have the energy anymore to discuss wtf GW are doing with sentinels.... Seems that it's all working as intended... jokes

[Warfiend]

People are exaggerating greatly and making up a lot of nonsense. Maybe try playing the game instead of talking about it as if the sky is falling. This thread has devolved into a sad mess. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I do wonder how Illithia will interact with unleash hell; from memory, you get to double up a command ability. Two units of 30 sentinels unleashing hell? I can't imagine much would survive that 

At least at that point, the amount of points and reinforcements spent on Sentinels will probably turn out cost-prohibitive. You definitely won't be able to fit 60 Sentinels into a good list. Maybe 40 (2x20), but I would guess that's the upper limit before the list becomes to weak in other areas.

[Beliman]

2 hours ago, SentinelGuy said:

^ this and increase their points by at least 25.

Judicators went from 140 (ghb2020)  to 150 (ghb2021) and then to 200p (new battletome)! I can see a lot of new crazy points going up/down with just some tweaked rules.