AoS 3 New Rules Discussion

[Gailon]

On 6/25/2021 at 7:28 PM, Vaporlocke said:

I'm hoping they change it to only being available to the units being charged, keeps it usable and still powerful but not abusable and broken. 

i could almost see trying the reverse as well. Where you can't use unleash hell if you get hit with the charge. Prevents you from just dropping a powerful shooting unit out there with a huge effective shield on it. 

[Gailon]

1 hour ago, Vaporlocke said:

Wanna take a bet that the designers and/or playtesters main shooting armies?

I kind of suspect it's the opposite. If you play this game from a narrative or casual style then it is far more difficult to identify the broken aspects of the game. I play a lot of casual games where both sides work to build lists to match the game style we enjoy. None of us are spamming that key unit, we will often take our best or new paint jobs, and we heavily skew melee with some support ranged. 

So in our games I can already see that Unleash Hell won't be an issue, and in fact will be awesomely tactical. I suspect the playtesters may be doing too much of playing the game as intended, rather than doing everything they can to power game it and figure out how to win. Playing a lot of low powered casual games has really given me that perspective. 

[yukishiro1]

Yeah, I don't think it's a question of deliberately trying to overpower their favorite factions. We know that the way GW develops is concept-based, not data-based or analytics-based. They didn't come up with unleash hell because they thought there was a need for it from a balance point of view, they did it because "that would be really cool!" and for whatever reason, nobody thought it'd also be cool to let you charge someone who shot you (a capability that would actually add much more strategy to the game by making the choice to shoot something have potential consequences instead of being pure upside), so it didn't happen. 

It seems to genuinely just be a coincidence that AOS has a ruleset more friendly to shooting than almost any other wargame in history. Not being snarky there, I really think that is the case. I don't think they set out to make the friendliest game to shooting in the history of wargames, but they've somehow ended up there. In what other game can you (1) shoot into melee with no penalty or chance of hitting your own guys, (2) shoot stuff in melee with you, again with no penalty except having to target the unit engaging you, (3) move out of charge range after they move into charge range with a reaction move, and (4) choose instead of moving to shoot at very close to full effectiveness, not only against something that charges the unit, but also against anything that ends a charge in a very generous bubble? And all this in a game with extremely limited LOS-blocking that's essentially played on planet bowling ball, and with very limited character protection as well. It's truly remarkable how friendly the base rules are to shooting. 

It doesn't necessarily make the game unbalanced - you can balance around those rules by making shooting really gimp in order to compensate for it being so hard to mitigate - but it does create a game where shooting is a remarkably brainless experience. 

Edited June 27, 2021 by yukishiro1

[vlad3theimpaler]

On 6/25/2021 at 12:02 PM, PJetski said:

This article today confirms that Unique wizards can't learn spells from a lore unless there is a special ability that says otherwise.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/06/25/designers-notes-how-points-changes-make-the-new-edition-more-balanced-than-ever/

They will be issuing erratas for battletomes to include Unique wizards, but that does not include the Universal spell lore. So Nagash can't cast Flaming Weapon, Kroak can't cast Ghost-mist, Morathi can't cast Levitate, etc.

There is no guarantee new battletomes will include this clause, but it's fair to assume they will.

I think it would have made more sense to errata the core rule rather than each individual battletome, but I guess that's something.

Edited June 27, 2021 by vlad3theimpaler

[Boar]

5 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

Why is it that all the reactions are to melee or at least close proximity, and none of them are to shooting? I mean yes you can boost your save, but you can do that in melee too.

Because almost anything will "react" to melee more than to shooting. It all comes down to inherent utility of ranged attacks.

Boosting your save happened before only in melee, so it's leveling field

5 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

Seems like a weird choice, even given their chosen theme of "reactions." Why not have a "reaction" that lets a melee unit immediately charge any ranged unit that shoots at it - an inverse unleash hell, if you will?

That is bad idea. Most of the time enemy would be out of charge range, the other times it would probably just punish short range shooting like in Pistoleers putting them out of contention in anything but most casual of play environments.

[Christopher Rowe]

[Note: I originally put this in the rules questions forum but decided it fits better here.]

Sorry in advance for the length and, probably, “basic-ness” of all this. Context, I only played 2.0 for a little while after the initial release (pre Malign Sorcery).

Okay, here we go.

What’s up with Endless Spells? There don’t seem to be any associated with my Seraphon faction on the Pitched Battles Profiles that have been floating around. Surely that doesn’t mean we don’t have access to them? There’s a sidebar in the rules about Battlepacks including notes about whether they can be used or not, but since some factions DO have Endless Spells listed in their points profiles, I’m confused.

Another thing about Endless Spells. I tracked down an unopened copy of the original Malign Sorcery boxed set so I’ll have all that first batch. Are there any others I need to get hold of? I gather that those faction-specific ones are, well, faction-specific. I have one of those tornado deals but I’ve read that’s not going to be part of the game anymore.

Priests! I love my Skink priest models, but chanting prayers is completely new to me, and none of my current warscrolls (from the most recent Seraphon Battletome and the Age of Sigmar app) have anything about them. Is there a book I missed somewhere, like the Malign Sorcery update, which includes information about them? Is that information, perhaps, in the four Broken Realms hardcovers that have been released?

Speaking of those four books, is there any important rules content them at all? I do plan to get them for lore and art at the least, but I have some models and battle mats taking up my hobby budget over the next month or two.

Invocations. These seem to be the the Priestly version of Endless Spells, at least if I’m reading the con/subtext right in the rules, even to the point of there being models for them. I can’t find any model for them on the webstore or lists of the Invocations themselves and who can take them and how.

And okay, this is a big one. I’m struggling to understand all the rules associated with 27.0 Allegiance Abilities and 27. 3 Enhancements.

27.2 Battle Traits and 27.2.1 Subfactions. Okay, I think I got this. These are just the Battle Traits on p. 55 of our battletome under Ways of the Seraphon, and then, depending on the subsection, Coalesced or Starborne.

27.3 Enhancements. Each set of allegiance abilities (which I’m used to being Battle Traits, Command Traits, Artefacts of Power, and Spell Lores) are given to specific units. I got that. However! There are also now Prayer Scriptures, Mount Traits, Triumphs, and Unique Enhancements. Those are new to me (except may triumphs, but I’ll get to that).

27.3.5 Prayer Scriptures. See above, where do I find these?

27.3.6 Triumphs. I think I remember these from fighting Pitched Battles. If I start with fewer points than my opponent there’s a list of stuff I can do, usually once per battle if memory serves.

23.3.7 Unique Enhancements. As with Prayer Scriptures, I’m mystified.

Now! Helpfully, there are Universal versions of Enhancements that clue me in a bit (though there are no Universal Endless Spells or Invocations that I’ve seen). But it seems like there should be some Seraphon specific (and indeed, all-factions specific) Prayer Scriptures, Mount Traits, and Unique Enhancements.

Oh, and speaking of Mount Traits, those actually don’t receive any sub-rule, explanation, or universal set. So what’s up with those? Will it mean that our Carnosaurs will have to pick between Blood Frenzy and Pinned Down, do you think?

Okay, looking back at all of this, it makes me feel like there’s a book I haven’t read, and I”m hoping y’all will be able to point me to it. It may, in fact, be the new Core Rulebook and I’m not alone in my mystification, but it seems unlikely that, for example, that book will include Prayer Scriptures for every faction and Mount Traits for every mount in the game. Answering this question probably answers all of them!

Sorry this was the length of the Bible.

[stratigo]

10 hours ago, Kadeton said:

"The designers buff the armies they play so they can personally win more games" is such a flimsy take. I'd bet that they rarely play the game outside of work, if at all - certainly not enough to 'main' an army.

The designers have provably buffed armies they are passionate about.

 

I don't think they've ever cared about making the armies they play better at beating their buddies, but you can tell which factions they care more about by the amount of neat rules lavished upon them. 

[Doko]

55 minutes ago, stratigo said:

The designers have provably buffed armies they are passionate about.

 

I don't think they've ever cared about making the armies they play better at beating their buddies, but you can tell which factions they care more about by the amount of neat rules lavished upon them. 

I think that everyone get in his head a army reading you post........lumineths

[yukishiro1]

7 hours ago, Boar said:

That is bad idea. Most of the time enemy would be out of charge range, the other times it would probably just punish short range shooting like in Pistoleers putting them out of contention in anything but most casual of play environments.

You mean like how unleash hell punishes every melee unit? Or how the new 1" of 1" coherency makes a large swathe of the units in the game remarkably worse? I thought we just got done saying that GW doesn't set the base rules based on balance considerations...

You could put it at the end of the charge phase too, though - out of phase charges are bad mojo anyway - it would just key off having been shot that turn. So pistoliers would be fine, they are going to charge in anyway themselves. 

 

[Fred1245]

2 hours ago, Christopher Rowe said:

 

[Note: I originally put this in the rules questions forum but decided it fits better here.]

Sorry in advance for the length and, probably, “basic-ness” of all this. Context, I only played 2.0 for a little while after the initial release (pre Malign Sorcery).

Okay, here we go.

What’s up with Endless Spells? There don’t seem to be any associated with my Seraphon faction on the Pitched Battles Profiles that have been floating around. Surely that doesn’t mean we don’t have access to them? There’s a sidebar in the rules about Battlepacks including notes about whether they can be used or not, but since some factions DO have Endless Spells listed in their points profiles, I’m confused.

Another thing about Endless Spells. I tracked down an unopened copy of the original Malign Sorcery boxed set so I’ll have all that first batch. Are there any others I need to get hold of? I gather that those faction-specific ones are, well, faction-specific. I have one of those tornado deals but I’ve read that’s not going to be part of the game anymore.

Priests! I love my Skink priest models, but chanting prayers is completely new to me, and none of my current warscrolls (from the most recent Seraphon Battletome and the Age of Sigmar app) have anything about them. Is there a book I missed somewhere, like the Malign Sorcery update, which includes information about them? Is that information, perhaps, in the four Broken Realms hardcovers that have been released?

Speaking of those four books, is there any important rules content them at all? I do plan to get them for lore and art at the least, but I have some models and battle mats taking up my hobby budget over the next month or two.

Invocations. These seem to be the the Priestly version of Endless Spells, at least if I’m reading the con/subtext right in the rules, even to the point of there being models for them. I can’t find any model for them on the webstore or lists of the Invocations themselves and who can take them and how.

And okay, this is a big one. I’m struggling to understand all the rules associated with 27.0 Allegiance Abilities and 27. 3 Enhancements.

27.2 Battle Traits and 27.2.1 Subfactions. Okay, I think I got this. These are just the Battle Traits on p. 55 of our battletome under Ways of the Seraphon, and then, depending on the subsection, Coalesced or Starborne.

27.3 Enhancements. Each set of allegiance abilities (which I’m used to being Battle Traits, Command Traits, Artefacts of Power, and Spell Lores) are given to specific units. I got that. However! There are also now Prayer Scriptures, Mount Traits, Triumphs, and Unique Enhancements. Those are new to me (except may triumphs, but I’ll get to that).

27.3.5 Prayer Scriptures. See above, where do I find these?

27.3.6 Triumphs. I think I remember these from fighting Pitched Battles. If I start with fewer points than my opponent there’s a list of stuff I can do, usually once per battle if memory serves.

23.3.7 Unique Enhancements. As with Prayer Scriptures, I’m mystified.

Now! Helpfully, there are Universal versions of Enhancements that clue me in a bit (though there are no Universal Endless Spells or Invocations that I’ve seen). But it seems like there should be some Seraphon specific (and indeed, all-factions specific) Prayer Scriptures, Mount Traits, and Unique Enhancements.

Oh, and speaking of Mount Traits, those actually don’t receive any sub-rule, explanation, or universal set. So what’s up with those? Will it mean that our Carnosaurs will have to pick between Blood Frenzy and Pinned Down, do you think?

Okay, looking back at all of this, it makes me feel like there’s a book I haven’t read, and I”m hoping y’all will be able to point me to it. It may, in fact, be the new Core Rulebook and I’m not alone in my mystification, but it seems unlikely that, for example, that book will include Prayer Scriptures for every faction and Mount Traits for every mount in the game. Answering this question probably answers all of them!

Sorry this was the length of the Bible.

Skink priest's 'on a 3+ do x' ability is technically a prayer, it just isn't called that so they didn't have to give you a prayer lore. With the core rules FAQ it'll likely be made officially a prayer and the skink priest will gain acces to generic prayers.

You feel like you're missing stuff because the prayer rules are based on DoK, BoK, Fyreslayers, etc that already had prayers that worked in roughly the same way, but seraphon didn't really.

Any endless spell that is not bound to a faction can be taken by any faction unless stated otherwise.

Invocations on the other hand are all faction bound and as of yet, Seraphin have none. The factions that have them are well aware that they do.

If certain enhancement types don't make sense to you after reading your Battletome, you probably don't have access to them. There are no generic mount traits, only artefacts, prayers, spells, scriptures, and Tiumphs. Triumphs are an old balancing tool for armies that have lower points than their opponents that have been baked into enhancement.

There are generic prayer scriptures(3) in the core rules, the rest will be in your battletome or on the priests warscroll. The skink priests ability will likely be FAQed into a scripture.

[Boar]

41 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

You mean like how unleash hell punishes every melee unit? Or how the new 1" of 1" coherency makes a large swathe of the units in the game remarkably worse? I thought we just got done saying that GW doesn't set the base rules based on balance considerations...

You could put it at the end of the charge phase too, though - out of phase charges are bad mojo anyway - it would just key off having been shot that turn. So pistoliers would be fine, they are going to charge in anyway themselves. 

In this case pistoleers want to charge themselves as you noted, not to be charged by other unit since they got ability to trigger. But you are completly missing the point that your proposed CA is most of the time useless due to distances involved. That short range mixed melee/missile skirmishers would suffer is just addition - tough not unimportant one.

 

And frankly I don't know what you are gettin at with reference to balance.

[yukishiro1]

I don't think you read what I actually wrote re: when it'd happen at the end of the charge phase because that completely addresses the pistoliers issue, but it's not important.

This is an objective-based game. If anything, the issue is that it'd be too powerful, not that it'd be useless. 

[Boar]

33 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

I don't think you read what I actually wrote re: when it'd happen at the end of the charge phase because that completely addresses the pistoliers issue, but it's not important.

This is an objective-based game. If anything, the issue is that it'd be too powerful, not that it'd be useless. 

Re: Pistoleers ability, my bad forgot about exact moment when it trigger. Tough on reflection large porblem would be that light cav as Pistoleers or Skywardens would like to choose were they charge to hopefully not die super horribly.

And yes your proposed ability could be problematic sometimes, which would hurt even more short range missile troops as they would not only suffer countercharge, but also more critically trigger redeploy for enemy.

But we kinda veered off topic why unleash hell exist at all. I said my piece earlier and looking trough your post I missed earlier I see your position is about your dislike for shooting how it is in AoS - ie. not restricted enough. Whereas for me it's tilted somewhat more towards balance (so I am waiting how unleash hell will affect that).

So as we have different outlook on this, do you feel there is more to be discussed?

[Legatus Seneca]

Starting new and trying to built my first army. Struggling a little with “enhancements”.

27.3 ENHANCEMENTS

Each set of allegiance abilities includes a number of enhancements that are given to specific units in an army. Enhancements are divided into command traits, artefacts of power, mount traits, triumph, spell lores, prayer scriptures and unique enhancements.

Enhancements are picked after you have chosen the battalions for your army (see 26.0). You can always take 1 enhancement of each type for your army, and the battalions or battlepack you are using may allow you to take additional enhancements for your army.

Emphasis mine.

This does mean I always get 1 command trait, 1 artifact, 1 mount trait (no generics, so might not apply to all armies), 1 triumph, 1 spell and 1 prayer?!

Reason I am asking is the triumph; some of the example army lists for 3.0 seem to not include triumphs. Since generic ones are available, I cannot see a reason not to. Am I misunderstanding something?

[Beliman]

1 minute ago, Legatus Seneca said:

Reason I am asking is the triumph; some of the example army lists for 3.0 seem to not include triumphs. Since generic ones are available, I cannot see a reason not to. Am I misunderstanding something?

Yes, you can chose a triumph.

But remember that you still need to have less points than your oponent to use it.

[SentinelGuy]

Just use Geminids to stop Unleash Hell. Fly them over a unit, deal a mortal wound and stop them from issuing or being issued an order. 

Edited June 27, 2021 by SentinelGuy

[yukishiro1]

Sure, if you can get the spell off, not unbound, you're within range, you pass the 2+, and you devote the points to it. Without +s to cast, it's like only about a 35% chance of it working, assuming your opponent has an unbind (which everyone can have in the new edition).  In a lot of cases it's probably better to just eat the shots and save the points, unless you have enough magical dominance to make it otherwise worth taking. 

[stratigo]

8 hours ago, Doko said:

I think that everyone get in his head a army reading you post........lumineths

Yes, Lumineth are the most obvious current example. The people writing the rules really seem to love the lumineth.

[Andalf]

It sounds a lot like Yuki just doesn’t like playing AoS?  Because the steps he plainly spit probabilities for are the only things you really do...  whether it’s casting a spell, or charging, or rolling for sides/first turn... 

Edited June 28, 2021 by Andalf

[Zeblasky]

About the Pistoliers btw, it's not that bad for them, because they shoot after they make a charge, at the same time when Unleash hell gets triggered. And considering that it's your turn, your actions have priority, so Pistolies charge, shoot first, then they get shot by Unleash Hell. Sure, Pistolers will lose some of their melee prowess because of that, bit most of their damagr comes from double shooting anyway.

 

BTW, a funny thought - take 10-15 Pistoliers (battleline in Tempest Eye), find a weak enough unit, shoot it, charge it, shoot again, finish it off, then Unleash Hell when you get charged in turn. That's 3 shooting attacks within a battle round, and without any buffs or debuffs from a 15 man unit that's potentially 30 -1 rend damage for 315 points. And you still have a decent melee profile here. A specific, but quite strong setup for sure, so do not worry for Pistoliers that much.

[Sleboda]

22 hours ago, Gailon said:

I suspect the playtesters may be doing too much of playing the game as intended, rather than doing everything they can to power game it and figure out how to win.

FWIW, when I was a playtester way back in old Warhammer days, we worked hard as heck to abuse the rules and find cracks.

Also, I know a few of the current testers, and these guys are not scrubs. They know how to break a system, and I'm willing to bet (true to their NDAs, they tell me nothing) they try like the dickens to do so.

[yukishiro1]

5 hours ago, Andalf said:

It sounds a lot like Yuki just doesn’t like playing AoS?  Because the steps he plainly spit probabilities for are the only things you really do...  whether it’s casting a spell, or charging, or rolling for sides/first turn

Being aware of the chances of things working doesn't mean you don't like a game, it just means you realize how the game actually works.

Unless you have significant magical dominance, using geminids to shut down unleash hell is not a plan you can rely on. The odds of getting it off with a no + to cast caster through an unbind are worse than relying on making a 9" charge from DS with a reroll, which is a classic example of a bad plan that people make because they don't understand probabilities. 

I wouldn't put it in your list just for that purpose, again unless you have magical dominance otherwise. It might make sense in some lists even without magical dominance for other reasons, but if you're concerned only about unleash hell, there are probably better ways to spend those points in a lot of cases. 

Edited June 28, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Scurvydog]

6 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

concerned only about unleash hell

Been getting in some more games now with 3.0 and this ability really goes great with some armies where the ranged units were not all that crazy before, but gets a bit more to do, like a unit of 6 kurnoths with bows or a unit of 22 blissbarb archers, this adds to their utility and forces hard decisions. 

The only real problem I think is with the super powerful ranged dominant armies and units, especially those with MW on hit who do not care about the -1 to hit modifier.

This also creates more of a role for those small fast skirmisher units, if you really need to charge that blob of archers, then they either use unleash hell to kill that chaff, and then cant use it for the "real" unit charging them, if they don't they get engaged with your chaff and then they still cant unleash hell, as they are now within 3" of something already. Thinking units such as fel bats, aetherwings etc, you leave your opponent with the option to use a CP to maybe kill that chaff, or not to do anything at all. 

Reposition is a true game changer, swingy, but can really mess with decision making, betting on 1 unit getting within 5" with a move to make a charge i suddenly far from a safe bet if the opponent moves d6 directly away, forcing plans on both sides to take this into account.

So far my gaming group is positive, there is a lot going on, a lot more decisions with hero phase choices for both players, monsters rampaging, battle tactics to be considered etc etc. We all feel the game is more engaging overall, less safe moves makes for more rng in games, which can be a lot of fun, although it can be frustrating, there is plenty to use CP on regardless of the armylist you are using.

Somehow I also initially missed the general generated 1 CP in each hero phase and not just your own besides the battleround CP, which means a bare minimum of 3 CP to use per battle round if the general is on the table. Enough to do a lot of fun stuff for everyone.

Obviously FAQs are still needed though, anxiously awaiting those tome FAQs now!

[Furuzzolo]

Yesterday we played a game with the new rules and we used the arcane bolt as ppl are talking it should  work (trigger during every phase). My monster with arcane bolt on ended up killing a bilepiper, a great unclean one and a unit of Plaguebearers flye-riders in one single turn...are we sure it work on every phase?? 😅  

THe spell seems to make more sense if you cast it and, before your next hero phase, you can ONCE unleash the effect.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Furuzzolo

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

10 minutes ago, Furuzzolo said:

Yesterday we played a game with the new rules and we used the arcane bolt as ppl are talking it should  work (trigger during every phase). My monster with arcane bolt on ended up killing a bilepiper, a great unclean one and a unit of Plaguebearers flye-riders in one single turn...are we sure it work on every phase?? 😅  

THe spell seems to make more sense if you cast it and, before your next hero phase, you can ONCE unleash the effect.

It says you get to trigger it in "any 1 phase" in the rules text. So not multiple times, I would say.