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AoS 3 New Rules Discussion


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1 hour ago, Reinholt said:

Very few armies have effective shooting in comparison to shootcast, and I know how to position my screens.

If you are going to counterplay this, you need to be one of the few armies that can shoot back effectively (Lumineth, Seraphon, etc.) or you need fast, flying units that can completely dodge my screens (esp. given how Aetherwings work) while saying out of shooting range (30") prior to that, which basically can be summed up as Idoneth Eels.

My opponent for this game is decently good; he's won a few local tournaments and knows how to play the game. But if you have something specific you think Fyreslayers can do against this, I'm all ears, because if we swapped armies and played again, I am very confident he'd smash me.

The answer shouldn't be "Well, obviously playing 3/4 of the armies in the game is a dumb mistake".

No one is perfect. I've made boneheaded plays myself, from fatigue, not thinking or not being flexible it happens. Misplays happen to all of us. 

Yeah FS are the perfect example of a faction with room to grow into AoS 3. They actually have good shooting, and chaff shooting. Throwing axes and bladeshields are a good counter build for unleash hell. Throwing axes also add utility to having more than the minimum sized unit. Brilliant chaff shooting. 

Secondly Doomseekers add aot of value in AoS3. Not only do they get all the benefits of being Heroes, they also are brilliant counter play to Unleash Hell, and are great at slipping screens with their single 32mm base. And, even if they die to Unleash Hell they have a boosted fight on death ability which means even if they tank the shooting and die they should get the job done with 6 dmg 3 attacks. 

Like I've been saying the answer to these sorts of problems are in the deployment, and movement phase. Which means you need to include the tools to pull them off. And, we need to radically rethink what we need to include in lists.

 

+++Edit

I just wanted to push back on the having to stay out of range bit. Taking damage is part of the game, players need to be comfortable with taking damage. And, knowing how much damage they can take without ruining their plans. This is a hard lesson I learned in the coal mines of dealing with 6th and 7th edition Dwarf shooting. For fear of losing models or a unit you can often lose the whole match. And, blame the "oppressive" nature of shooting when it was just a lack of nerve. 

Edited by whispersofblood
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2 hours ago, NauticalSoup said:

I've never once seen 'git good' work to keep someone in the hobby. If somebody is quitting because of negative play experiences you're going to have to do better. And I think you're vastly understating the strength of Unleash Hell, it's not going to be easy to play around and is currently central to competitive discussions of the game.

I think PC was joking about it in his Goodhammer article, but I think the ability being stripped out of matched play next GHB is a likely outcome.

@Enoby see what I mean?

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I'm glad they've confirmed new FAQs and erratas for all factions on launch. That's the kind of information we needed 2 weeks ago, but I'm still glad to see it!

"Regular updates to points values" kind of suggests they might be aware there are problems with the GHB already. We'll see I guess.

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10 minutes ago, Urauloth said:

I'm glad they've confirmed new FAQs and erratas for all factions on launch. That's the kind of information we needed 2 weeks ago, but I'm still glad to see it!

"Regular updates to points values" kind of suggests they might be aware there are problems with the GHB already. We'll see I guess.

They also confirmed that they do consider base size and reach for cost purposes.  So while folks may not agree with their conclusions, they're not oblivious. 

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28 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

Yeah FS are the perfect example of a faction with room to grow into AoS 3. They actually have good shooting, and chaff shooting. Throwing axes and bladeshields are a good counter build for unleash hell. Throwing axes also add utility to having more than the minimum sized unit. Brilliant chaff shooting. 

Hnnn i think you dont know nothing anout fs is you think they have good shooting.

His shooting unit does 100% less damage per point that every other similar unit(only vs monsters is balanced)

Also his axes are 5 hit and 5 wound so with overwatch ad you said are great.........yes even a unit of 15 maxed hearthguard can shoot overwatch for 15 6hit(+1 hit of unleash hell) 5 wound.......so spend one cp with a maxed unit to do 1!!!!! No rend damage,yes great a good use of 1 cp

Also the shields only can be shoot if you charge,so imposible use them with unleash hell

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This article today confirms that Unique wizards can't learn spells from a lore unless there is a special ability that says otherwise.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/06/25/designers-notes-how-points-changes-make-the-new-edition-more-balanced-than-ever/

They will be issuing erratas for battletomes to include Unique wizards, but that does not include the Universal spell lore. So Nagash can't cast Flaming Weapon, Kroak can't cast Ghost-mist, Morathi can't cast Levitate, etc.

There is no guarantee new battletomes will include this clause, but it's fair to assume they will.

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3 minutes ago, Doko said:

His shooting unit does 100% less damage per point that every other similar unit(only vs monsters is balanced)

You are not wrong in saying that Auric Hearthguard are not so strong with Unleash Hell, but appart from top tier shooting units (buffed irondrakes and this kind of stuff), Auric Hearthguard (125p) are really close to KOs most powerful ranged troop (Grundstock Thunderers 135p):

AuricHG_Main_Weapon.jpg.0b9e33ef23cc38746cd03ff1b6935f57.jpgThunderers_Main_Weapon.jpg.36588703b7460432ec40eb7920b6193b.jpg

Btw, I love my Grundstock boys!!

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13 minutes ago, Doko said:

Hnnn i think you dont know nothing anout fs is you think they have good shooting.

His shooting unit does 100% less damage per point that every other similar unit(only vs monsters is balanced)

Also his axes are 5 hit and 5 wound so with overwatch ad you said are great.........yes even a unit of 15 maxed hearthguard can shoot overwatch for 15 6hit(+1 hit of unleash hell) 5 wound.......so spend one cp with a maxed unit to do 1!!!!! No rend damage,yes great a good use of 1 cp

Also the shields only can be shoot if you charge,so imposible use them with unleash hell

...mate... He asked me what FS could do in the face of the scenerio presented. Aetherwings protecting Longstrikes. 

My response was in regard to that, a situation where the throwing axes were useful vis-a-vis 6 wounds of save - aetherwings. And, that the gap provided by that shooting could be exploited by Doomseekers or moved through. 

Alternatively the shields a 1-2 charge where the blade shields are used to remove the aetherwings so a second unit can charge the Longstrikes. Again in this case a Doomseekers would be useful as even if the Longstrikes save the unleash hell for the Doomseekers he will fight. 

There is obviously a world of difference between being able to build a strategy around something and having access to something. 

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I don't think he was suggesting you use unleash hell, but use the throwing axes to clear screens. But that doesn't work either, throwing axes are so terrible that they will be lucky to clear even something as trivially easy to kill as a unit of aetherwings. 

The thing about doomseekers is also simply wrong. You don't get to fight on death if you die to unleash hell, that happens in the charge phase, not the combat phase, and doomseekers only get to fight on death if they die in the combat phase. 

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3 minutes ago, PJetski said:

This article today confirms that Unique wizards can't learn spells from a lore unless there is a special ability that says otherwise.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/06/25/designers-notes-how-points-changes-make-the-new-edition-more-balanced-than-ever/

They will be issuing erratas for battletomes to include Unique wizards, but that does not include the Universal spell lore. So Nagash can't cast Flaming Weapon, Kroak can't cast Ghost-mist, Morathi can't cast Levitate, etc.

There is no guarantee new battletomes will include this clause, but it's fair to assume they will.

Watch out for pedantic folks pointing out that this errata doesn't actually fix the biggest issue - that the core rules say that even if a unique unit receives an enhancement, they can't use it.  

Clearly that's not the intent but...

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10 minutes ago, Beliman said:

You are not wrong in saying that Auric Hearthguard are not so strong with Unleash Hell, but appart from top tier shooting units (buffed irondrakes and this kind of stuff), Auric Hearthguard (125p) are really close to KOs most powerful ranged troop (Grundstock Thunderers 135p):

AuricHG_Main_Weapon.jpg.0b9e33ef23cc38746cd03ff1b6935f57.jpgThunderers_Main_Weapon.jpg.36588703b7460432ec40eb7920b6193b.jpg

Btw, I love my Grundstock boys!!

I havent ko,neither never played against them but i didnt knew that thunderers were so bad lol,but i think the option on foot with all diferent weapons was the good option? And the extra attack in melle seems veeeeey good with unleash hell

But when i said similar units i was speaking about snakes,sentinels,irondrakes,gunners free people or crossbow etc

But to me they arent bad,his role is bodyguard,and have bodyguards that can do some damage from far while bodyguarding you key hero seems good to me

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2 hours ago, Reinholt said:

But if you have something specific you think Fyreslayers can do against this, I'm all ears, because if we swapped armies and played again, I am very confident he'd smash me.

As fyreslayer player i can tell you that shooting isnt the answer as axes are useless even killing one aetherwing.

Also the suicide one hero is useless because pretty sure if you know play you gonna let your shotcast pretty far from aetherwings so even a 12" charge trougth aetherwings is imposible.

The best option is as allways doubleturn.

Charge with some vulkite,msu hearthguard or expendable hero to the aetherwing and the sce  have two options

 

1- waste unleash hell on a expendable unit(if can be called that a 125 points hearthguard lol) and then you are free to charge with the 15 man hearthguard and delete the screen,then win second turn and do the same with the shooting unit

2- dont use unleash but then the expendable fs unit likely gonna delete the screen and next turn gonna be alive to do the same with the shooting unit.

But this is only if the sce havent room to run away with the aetherwings. But i have stormcast also that fyreslayers and i really think that i could tank your shooting attack with -1 hit of unleash hell with my 15 hearthguards with save 4\4++ and then go for the shooting unit.

What unit of sce are you speaking that can do so huge damage to kill a full unit of hearthguards with a unleash hell?

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9 minutes ago, Doko said:

I havent ko,neither never played against them but i didnt knew that thunderers were so bad lol,but i think the option on foot with all diferent weapons was the good option? And the extra attack in melle seems veeeeey good with unleash hell

But when i said similar units i was speaking about snakes,sentinels,irondrakes,gunners free people or crossbow etc

But to me they arent bad,his role is bodyguard,and have bodyguards that can do some damage from far while bodyguarding you key hero seems good to me

Nobody used special weapons in 2.0 (maybe fumigators for that juicy -1 to hit), but I think that we are going to see more "melee" Grundstock Thunderers in 3.0 (or I hope so) with Unleash Hell and no need to babysit them with a Khemist.

I wouldn't say that Grundstok Thunderers have a bad profile (Imo, a bad profile could be something like 5+/5+ or 6+/6+ or anything inbetween), the problem comes that you look at the top ranged units with MW on ranged attacks, double-tap, 2+/2+ profiles, etc... and Imho, all this stuff makes the game worst.

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26 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Nobody used special weapons in 2.0

That sound bit hyperbolic too me.

Generally regarding Grundstock Thunderers it pays to remember their 2W, 4+ save profile. It's not your typical shooting unit.

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1 minute ago, Boar said:

That sound bit hyperbolic too me.

Yes, wrong words. I just wanted to say that most people prefered 18" ranged weapons because they had better synergies with the whole army (mainly High Fly and Zilfin alpha). That's something that I expect to change with 3.0!!

7 minutes ago, Boar said:

Generally regarding Grundstock Thunderers it pays to remember their 2W, 4+ save profile. It's not your typical shooting unit.

Completely! As Auric Hearthguards (2W ranged bodyguard).

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49 minutes ago, Doko said:

As fyreslayer player i can tell you that shooting isnt the answer as axes are useless even killing one aetherwing.

Also the suicide one hero is useless because pretty sure if you know play you gonna let your shotcast pretty far from aetherwings so even a 12" charge trougth aetherwings is imposible.

The best option is as allways doubleturn.

Charge with some vulkite,msu hearthguard or expendable hero to the aetherwing and the sce  have two options

 

1- waste unleash hell on a expendable unit(if can be called that a 125 points hearthguard lol) and then you are free to charge with the 15 man hearthguard and delete the screen,then win second turn and do the same with the shooting unit

2- dont use unleash but then the expendable fs unit likely gonna delete the screen and next turn gonna be alive to do the same with the shooting unit.

But this is only if the sce havent room to run away with the aetherwings. But i have stormcast also that fyreslayers and i really think that i could tank your shooting attack with -1 hit of unleash hell with my 15 hearthguards with save 4\4++ and then go for the shooting unit.

What unit of sce are you speaking that can do so huge damage to kill a full unit of hearthguards with a unleash hell?

This is a good post overall and things that were essentially tried.

The problem is not just Unleash Hell, it's how Unleash Hell interacts with the cumulative rate of fire from SCE to unload on units.

Take a 6x unit of Vanguard Longstrikes in Anvils.

On a single round of shooting, they put out 6 shots at 2+/3+/-2 rend/2 damage with 2xMortals on a 6. A 15 man HG unit will have 30 wounds coming in on that. If I'm using Anvils, and I'm an idiot not to use Anvils with that unit, you're taking something like ~24 wounds through your saves on the way in or more, which is most of that unit. This is ignoring the fact that I will very likely have my own buffs and also ignoring the fact that shooting the unit of 15x HG is not the way to go (you use cheap screens on them and move to the side and leave them behind and/or teleport) as what the VRs should be doing is deleting all the characters and smaller units so that at the end of the game all you have left is the 15 HG unit and I'm just rolling up the score on all the other stuff as the maneuverability of 15x HG is not such that you're going to win a game with just those.

This is what I mean: the efficient projection of force with shooting while melee has been stealth nerfed for a lot of units by the coherency changes is legit puzzling. When you pair that with Unleash Hell meaning that in 2 turns, my Raptors used to be able to shoot 4 times (double tap with Anvils) and now can potentially shoot 6 but the points did not go up accounting for this additional output... like what is going on here?

They were already one of the best shooting units in the game, in a game where shooting units dominate and some can literally never be brought into melee (hi, Severith), so your fix to this was to up the output of many kinds of shooting units by ~35-50% when the enemy gets close?

I just don't know how you make it work with an army that can't very rapidly project power across the board with shooting, the few armies that have enough movement to DGAF (Eels, again, though I hold the off market opinion that there may be some gross SBGL builds around Blood Knights, who function similarly to Eels now with their charge / leave engagement by flying move), or I guess in theory have enough magic dominance that it's about the same as the shooting. In none of these cases is melee really the answer, especially slow melee.

This is why I have been testing this to see if this really would be the edition of monsters, but I think it's more likely to be the edition of monsters getting shot like chumps by shooting units, so far.

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I think it's very likely double shoot goes away for SCE in the new book, they've been removing double shoot/fight from 40k pretty ruthlessly, and it really skews the worth of Longstrikes in a kinda dumb way. It seems like they've finally cottoned on to the way that these subfaction-specific command abilities can inflate the worth of units and make it impossible to balance them with points. Lonstrikes are a pretty good unit without the ability, but they're absurd with it, and that makes it impossible to balance them unless you just make them total junk in any faction but Anvils. 

Maybe that's just the optimist in me, though. 

Edited by yukishiro1
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11 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

On a single round of shooting, they put out 6 shots at 2+/3+/-2 rend/2 damage with 2xMortals on a 6. A 15 man HG unit will have 30 wounds coming in on that. If I'm using Anvils, and I'm an idiot not to use Anvils with that unit, you're taking something like ~24 wounds through your saves on the way in or more, which is most of that unit.

Huh? With 12 shots, so with double activation it's on average 14 wounds, if HG have their ward of 4+ it will become 7. I guess there could be some buffs here, I don't really know Stormcast, but still it doesn't look anywhere close what you are claiming. Unless I ****** up ofc.

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2 minutes ago, Boar said:

Huh? With 12 shots, so with double activation it's on average 14 wounds, if HG have their ward of 4+ it will become 7. I guess there could be some buffs here, I don't really know Stormcast, but still it doesn't look anywhere close what you are claiming. Unless I ****** up ofc.

2 turns: 2x shots on my turn, 1x unleash hell to wipe my screen, 2x more shots on my turn, 1x unleash hell when they charge my unit, if I dumped it all into the HGB, which as stated, is not the correct decision (you block and fall away from them to shoot other things). Edit: not usually the correct decision, I suppose. The nice part about long reach shooting is you always have options so there may be games where that is the correct decision. I shouldn't state it as a blanket rule as the optionality of targets is part of the power.

 

Edit: the math is slightly better if you double turn, but if we live in a world where "you must double turn to have a chance" is the dominant paradigm, that means there's no winning strategy and your neutral expectation is a loss. Also assuming I didn't just take multiple Aetherwing units to keep blocking charges... which most stormcast players do.

Edited by Reinholt
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1 hour ago, yukishiro1 said:

I don't think he was suggesting you use unleash hell, but use the throwing axes to clear screens. But that doesn't work either, throwing axes are so terrible that they will be lucky to clear even something as trivially easy to kill as a unit of aetherwings. 

The thing about doomseekers is also simply wrong. You don't get to fight on death if you die to unleash hell, that happens in the charge phase, not the combat phase, and doomseekers only get to fight on death if they die in the combat phase. 

You're right I was pulling the Doomseekers from memory I should have checked the precise subphases. Risks of rushing to reply between tasks.

Really the overall point which was probably lost due to the error is that you need to use units in concert to force decisive combats. 

But, that is only after you have accertained that combat is the solution to the problem at hand. 

***Also just as an aside, 9 Longstrikes double shooting is stronger than 6 longstrikes double shooting and using unleash hell. So actually Longstrikes have recieved a nerf on their per battle round dmg. 

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4 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

I think it's very likely double shoot goes away for SCE in the new book, they've been removing double shoot/fight from 40k pretty ruthlessly, and it really skews the worth of Longstrikes in a kinda dumb way. It seems like they've finally cottoned on to the way that these subfaction-specific command abilities can inflate the worth of units and make it impossible to balance them with points. Lonstrikes are a pretty good unit without the ability, but they're absurd with it, and that makes it impossible to balance them unless you just make them total junk in any faction but Anvils. 

Maybe that's just the optimist in me, though. 

100% agree.

Double tap and fishing for MW (+ Unleash Hell) is what I'm worried about (and the usual power-creep from new battletomes)

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19 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

2 turns: 2x shots on my turn, 1x unleash hell to wipe my screen, 2x more shots on my turn, 1x unleash hell when they charge my unit, if I dumped it all into the HGB, which as stated, is not the correct decision (you block and fall away from them to shoot other things).

If they have just +1 to save, it will be around 18 dmg. I get your point isn't only about raw damage especially as MW on 6s are important in removing enemy heroes, but it is part of your argument nonetheless.

Edited by Boar
18 dmg actually, not 17
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42 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

This is a good post overall and things that were essentially tried.

The problem is not just Unleash Hell, it's how Unleash Hell interacts with the cumulative rate of fire from SCE to unload on units.

Take a 6x unit of Vanguard Longstrikes in Anvils.

On a single round of shooting, they put out 6 shots at 2+/3+/-2 rend/2 damage with 2xMortals on a 6. A 15 man HG unit will have 30 wounds coming in on that. If I'm using Anvils, and I'm an idiot not to use Anvils with that unit, you're taking something like ~24 wounds through your saves on the way in or more, which is most of that unit. This is ignoring the fact that I will very likely have my own buffs and also ignoring the fact that shooting the unit of 15x HG is not the way to go (you use cheap screens on them and move to the side and leave them behind and/or teleport) as what the VRs should be doing is deleting all the characters and smaller units so that at the end of the game all you have left is the 15 HG unit and I'm just rolling up the score on all the other stuff as the maneuverability of 15x HG is not such that you're going to win a game with just those.

This is what I mean: the efficient projection of force with shooting while melee has been stealth nerfed for a lot of units by the coherency changes is legit puzzling. When you pair that with Unleash Hell meaning that in 2 turns, my Raptors used to be able to shoot 4 times (double tap with Anvils) and now can potentially shoot 6 but the points did not go up accounting for this additional output... like what is going on here?

They were already one of the best shooting units in the game, in a game where shooting units dominate and some can literally never be brought into melee (hi, Severith), so your fix to this was to up the output of many kinds of shooting units by ~35-50% when the enemy gets close?

I just don't know how you make it work with an army that can't very rapidly project power across the board with shooting, the few armies that have enough movement to DGAF (Eels, again, though I hold the off market opinion that there may be some gross SBGL builds around Blood Knights, who function similarly to Eels now with their charge / leave engagement by flying move), or I guess in theory have enough magic dominance that it's about the same as the shooting. In none of these cases is melee really the answer, especially slow melee.

This is why I have been testing this to see if this really would be the edition of monsters, but I think it's more likely to be the edition of monsters getting shot like chumps by shooting units, so far.

I get your point.

But from my point of view:

Fs use vorstag so can move and run etc and use 1 cp from runefather to +1 charges,also the rune of 2" extra move. So we can move 12" in first turn and have +2 to charge.(+1 extra move and charge for vulkites musician)

Now it is very posible fs gonna start due to less drops(sce spaming aetherwings are many drops)

Then in first turn the fs gonna charge to all the screen of the sce(any charges gonna faill but usually 2 or more gonna be sucessfull).

The unleash hell from 6 longstrikes even at 2 hit(spending the cp for extra hit or other buffer) is around 7 that wont kill the 10 vulkites even,and one 15 hg with a 4\4 only gonna get around 3 wounds,so i gonna have 14 bodys yet.

Now in melle i gonna delete the screen.

Now is your turn and i guess you gonna move away 4" and double shoot the hg because they are very close to you(in this situation i think is better focus hg and not heroes) doing 14 damage than after saves gonna do around 6 damage getting the hg to 11 mens.

Doubleturn to fs and now i move and run(i can run and charge with vorstag)and i am at 3" from longstrikes, i charge and i get again around 3 extra wounds with unleash hell.now i have 9 hg that gonna delete the longstrikes.

Yes i know this is a very simple situation and with double turn.

You can run away with aetherwing at the charge,also you have many others units to attack me and not only longstrikes etc but i hope you get the idea of how i would play with my fs against the shooting

 

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29 minutes ago, Beliman said:

100% agree.

Double tap and fishing for MW (+ Unleash Hell) is what I'm worried about (and the usual power-creep from new battletomes)

I'm not worried about powercreep at the moment tbh.

To me it feels like GW saw the absolute nightmare that was Tzeentch into KO into Seraphon into Lumineth and went 'wait no, do a reverse'.

SoB wasn't particularly high tier, Hedonites of Slaanesh and DoK were both heavy nerfs to their respective factions, and it's honestly kind of debatable if Soulblight Gravelords are even as good as LoN was.

The only outlier was the second Lumineth book which felt like it was actually supposed to come out in the Mega-death block that was DoT+KO+Seraphon.

I know predicting trends with GW is impossible, they don't seem to know what they're going to do next most of the time, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the books going forward are actually the same or worse than they are now. 

Look to the Orruk and SCE books to be at best a shuffling of what's good and at worst a straight downgrade on the current tomes(even though neither are great) and then watch the tomes after them chase that same level. 

Which will absolutely suck when it's down to 15 out of the top 16 factions at events are Lumineth (most recent book, least likely to see quick update) but w/e.

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30 minutes ago, Fred1245 said:

I'm not worried about powercreep at the moment tbh.

To me it feels like GW saw the absolute nightmare that was Tzeentch into KO into Seraphon into Lumineth and went 'wait no, do a reverse'.

SoB wasn't particularly high tier, Hedonites of Slaanesh and DoK were both heavy nerfs to their respective factions, and it's honestly kind of debatable if Soulblight Gravelords are even as good as LoN was.

The only outlier was the second Lumineth book which felt like it was actually supposed to come out in the Mega-death block that was DoT+KO+Seraphon.

I know predicting trends with GW is impossible, they don't seem to know what they're going to do next most of the time, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the books going forward are actually the same or worse than they are now. 

Look to the Orruk and SCE books to be at best a shuffling of what's good and at worst a straight downgrade on the current tomes(even though neither are great) and then watch the tomes after them chase that same level. 

Which will absolutely suck when it's down to 15 out of the top 16 factions at events are Lumineth (most recent book, least likely to see quick update) but w/e.

I don't think we'll see significant power creep in Battletomes 1-3, but beyond that I think there's a very good chance of power creep. If we examine what happened in 40k for the last 3 editions (7e to 9e), there's always a dial-back of power level at the beginning of the edition and the first 2-3 codices follow this pattern. Then power ramps up as books release, sometimes progressively and sometimes in a mid-edition paradigm shift, and by the end of the edition the first books are considered significantly underpowered barring any supplements late into the edition.

 

I think this is likely intentional as it allows for them to hype up releases and sell more armies, so I would be shocked if AoS 3 didn't follow the same pattern.

Edited by Cambyses
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