AoS 3 New Rules Discussion

[Xs_0013]

31 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

Many models with Shields actually get a whole different Save Stat, in fact.  Ie, they say "Your Save stat becomes a 5+" instead of the normal 6+.

These should stack perfectly well with All Out Defense.  

Just my poor poor beastmen then. All those options are 'add +1 to saving throws with models equipped with beastshields'.

I'm fine with the rule being capped at +1, but if it was baked into a warscroll rather than altering the dice roll it would be a welcome change. 

My eg above the Killaboss with a shield can still benefit from all out defense. Sadly Gors/ungors cannot. I dont know of other warscrolls this affects but I bet they're out there

Edit: had a quick look on the app for shield mobs. Grots, clanrats, fyreslayers bezerkers to name a few all get +1 to saving rolls for having shields. No all out defense I'm afraid. 

Edited June 15, 2021 by Xs_0013
See above

[Reuben Parker]

2 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

New article is up with some of the GHB stuff, the two new battalions aren't that great.

Alpha-beast pack is a step in the right direction for sure, as its got a somewhat unique effect, and these both actually have narrative, but they're still a significant step below battle regiment or an enhancement in terms of power.

Hunters could be good to throw your horde units into to stop them from being roared and still able to received inspiring so half don’t die then the other half run. 
 

EDIT as pointed out roar doesn’t last that long so not needed, just ignore   

Edited June 15, 2021 by Reuben Parker
Dunces cap

[PJetski]

20 minutes ago, Xs_0013 said:

Just my poor poor beastmen then. All those options are 'add +1 to saving throws with models equipped with beastshields'.

I'm fine with the rule being capped at +1, but if it was baked into a warscroll rather than altering the dice roll it would be a welcome change. 

My eg above the Killaboss with a shield can still benefit from all out defense. Sadly Gors/ungors cannot. I dont know of other warscrolls this affects but I bet they're out there

Edit: had a quick look on the app for shield mobs. Grots, clanrats, fyreslayers bezerkers to name a few all get +1 to saving rolls for having shields. No all out defense I'm afraid. 

The net modifier on save rolls is capped at +1. You can still benefit from multiple +1 save effects to help mitigate Rend.

Edited June 15, 2021 by PJetski

[Ganigumo]

32 minutes ago, frostyeel said:

I reached an interpretation of the Unique unit / spell lore enhancement confusion that I'm happy with. 27.3.1 says "Enhancement's cannot be given to unique units", and the rules for command traits and artifacts both use the word "give" in phrasing that is very similar to the restriction. The spell lore enhancement (27.3.4) does not use the word "give". It is phrased roughly, for each wizard pick a spell, that wizard knows that spell. So unlike command traits and artefacts of power, the spell lore enhancement is not a thing that is given to a unit, it's just an enhancement that allows you to pick a spell for each wizard. Thus no conflict with 27.3.1, and the sidenote that says "every Wizard" doesn't necessarily need to be acting as an exception to 27.3.1, but is just a reminder that the spell lore enhancement affects all eligible units, unlike command traits and artefacts that affect a single eligible unit.

 

29 minutes ago, Dankboss said:

This is how I read it. You the player pick the Enhancement, which then allows access to spells. Otherwise, Unique wizards get locked out of their own spell lore, as that too is an Enhancement.

The rules on enhancements pretty clearly state that enhancements are given to specific units.

This whole section is a mess if half of the enhancements aren't "given" after stating that they are.
There's also a sidebar stating if you're forced to give a unique character an enhancement they can't use it.

12 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said:

Hunters could be good to throw your horde units into to stop them from being roared and still able to received inspiring so half don’t die then the other half run. 

Roar is only combat phase so it doesn't stop inspiring presence.

[nuttyknatty]

Is someone trying to argue that spells aren’t Enhancements?

Seems clear to me that they can’t be used by Unique units.

[stus67]

21 minutes ago, PJetski said:

The net modifier on save rolls is capped at +1. You can still benefit from multiple +1 save effects to help mitigate Rend.

I don't understand this. How can you mitigate rend if you can only ever get +1 to your save.

[Ganigumo]

1 minute ago, stus67 said:

I don't understand this. How can you mitigate rend if you can only ever get +1 to your save.

There's a cap on the modifier, not a cap on the bonus, so you add up all the bonuses (including rend) then if it's higher than +1 it hits the cap and only counts as +1.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Ganigumo

[PJetski]

1 minute ago, stus67 said:

I don't understand this. How can you mitigate rend if you can only ever get +1 to your save.

You can get any number of +1 to save roll effects but when you roll the dice the maximum modifier is +1.

If you have +4 Save and the enemy has Rend-2 you end up with +2 overall, but as per the rules the modifier is reduced to +1.

[CaptainSoup]

3 minutes ago, stus67 said:

I don't understand this. How can you mitigate rend if you can only ever get +1 to your save.

The same way you do in 40k. Remember that the wording says you cannot have anything higher than a +1 to your save, but that doesn't mean you cant stack save modifiers. If 3rd edition is taking notes from 40k 9th, you still add and subtract any and all modifiers you have to said unit, but it will only ever end up being at most a +1 to the save. 

 

1 minute ago, PJetski said:

You can get any number of +1 to save roll effects but when you roll the dice the maximum modifier is +1.

If you have +4 Save and the enemy has Rend-2 you end up with +2 overall, but as per the rules the modifier is reduced to +1.

 

2 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

There's a cap on the modifier, not a cap on the bonus, so you add up all the bonuses (including rend) then if it's higher than +1 it hits the cap and only counts as +1.

What they said. 😝

[Dankboss]

20 minutes ago, nuttyknatty said:

Is someone trying to argue that spells aren’t Enhancements?

Seems clear to me that they can’t be used by Unique units.

You now can't use your own faction's spell lore because that is an Enhancement.

[Ghoooouls]

Actually the rules state save rolls cannot be modified by more than +1. If you have two abilities that both give a +1 modifier to save rolls, you still cap at +1, because a save roll cannot be modified by more than +1.

Even if you get hit with rend 2, that gives -2 to your save roll, you then have a +1 modifier from mystic shield. This still counts as a +1 to your save roll, even though you are now rolling at a total of -1.

Edit. I may be wrong here lol.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Ghoooouls

[PJetski]

Just now, Ghoooouls said:

Actually the rules state save rolls cannot be modified by more than +1. If you have two abilities that both give a +1 modifier to save rolls, you still cap at +1, because a save roll cannot be modified by more than +1.

Even if you get hit with rend 2, that gives -2 to your save roll, you then have a +1 modifier from mystic shield. This still counts as a +1 to your save roll, even though you are now rolling at a total of -1.

No, all modifiers that apply are added together at the same time

[KrispyXIV]

4 minutes ago, Ghoooouls said:

Actually the rules state save rolls cannot be modified by more than +1. If you have two abilities that both give a +1 modifier to save rolls, you still cap at +1, because a save roll cannot be modified by more than +1.

Even if you get hit with rend 2, that gives -2 to your save roll, you then have a +1 modifier from mystic shield. This still counts as a +1 to your save roll, even though you are now rolling at a total of -1.

Check the sidebar on page 4 of the rules.  It explains how this works. 

 

Edit - as ninjaed by Pjetski

Edited June 15, 2021 by KrispyXIV

[nuttyknatty]

8 minutes ago, Dankboss said:

You now can't use your own faction's spell lore because that is an Enhancement.

Ah, understood. 👍

[stus67]

4 minutes ago, PJetski said:

No, all modifiers that apply are added together at the same time

Pretty sure I understand this now. I'm kinda used to this from 40k with hit rolls, but it comes up way less often.  Basically if I was being attacked by a Rend 0 weapon and had a Save characteristic of 4, but had two +2 Save effects on me, I would still only ever be +1 so my save would be on a 3+ instead of 2+, but if it was a Rend -2 my two +1 Save effects would still cancel out the rend.

[Thor]

This has probably been answered. But how does archaon reroll hit rolls work with the new wording. Versus.. say hedonites hit rolls of 6 ? 

[Dankboss]

Just now, nuttyknatty said:

Ah, understood. 👍

I don't blame people for interpreting differently as it's all over the place with ifs buts and maybes, along with new terminology. To me it's only logical for Uniques to be able to take spells, the same way they'd be able to use Triumphs; the new Enhancement rules are fundamentally the same as they were before under a new name. I read it as rules as intended.

Facehammer, who I believe is a playtester also mentioned Nagash taking Flaming Sword (or whatever it's called).

[Fuxxx]

Can my opponent only ever hit me with -1 rend then? So the new stormcast at 3+ and my opponent has rend 2, he can only modify my save by one?

Why would I want a -2 rend then anyways? I wouldn't give my unit +1 if I know a -2 attack is coming. Wouldn't do much good...

[nuttyknatty]

Just now, Dankboss said:

I don't blame people for interpreting differently as it's all over the place with ifs buts and maybes, along with new terminology. To me it's only logical for Uniques to be able to take spells, the same way they'd be able to use Triumphs; the new Enhancement rules are fundamentally the same as they were before under a new name. I read it as rules as intended.

Facehammer, who I believe is a playtester also mentioned Nagash taking Flaming Sword (or whatever it's called).

There is a proviso at the end of the sentence of 27.3.1 “unless otherwise stated”. Maybe that’s an out?🤷🏼‍♂️

[KrispyXIV]

1 minute ago, Fuxxx said:

Can my opponent only ever hit me with -1 rend then? So the new stormcast at 3+ and my opponent has rend 2, he can only modify my save by one?

Why would I want a -2 rend then anyways? I wouldn't give my unit +1 if I know a -2 attack is coming. Wouldn't do much good...

Saves are capped at +1 only, no negative cap.  

[Dankboss]

Just now, nuttyknatty said:

There is a proviso at the end of the sentence of 27.3.1 “unless otherwise stated”. Maybe that’s an out?🤷🏼‍♂️

I do take that into account, as there are two instances later on where the ruling overrides the base rule.

[CaptainSoup]

3 minutes ago, Fuxxx said:

Can my opponent only ever hit me with -1 rend then? So the new stormcast at 3+ and my opponent has rend 2, he can only modify my save by one?

Why would I want a -2 rend then anyways? I wouldn't give my unit +1 if I know a -2 attack is coming. Wouldn't do much good...

In the Core Rules PDF if mentions under Save Rolls that negative modifiers are not capped at -1 so they still work the way they used to after modifiers. 

[stus67]

3 minutes ago, nuttyknatty said:

There is a proviso at the end of the sentence of 27.3.1 “unless otherwise stated”. Maybe that’s an out?🤷🏼‍♂️

This is what I assumed when reading those rules. I know most named wizards state on their warscroll that they have access to X lore or spells, like nagash having access to all of the soulblight spells. I would assume that counts as being "otherwise stated", and it could be updated in a FAQ to also include the universal spell lore.

[Ghoooouls]

29 minutes ago, Thor said:

This has probably been answered. But how does archaon reroll hit rolls work with the new wording. Versus.. say hedonites hit rolls of 6 ? 

Yep i mentioned it a bit further back, will find the page. 'Unmodified' rolls such as 'unmodified hit rolls of a 6' are after any rerolls. So archaons takes precedence.

Core rules page 4, 1.5.5

Edited June 15, 2021 by Ghoooouls

[Ghoooouls]

20 minutes ago, stus67 said:

This is what I assumed when reading those rules. I know most named wizards state on their warscroll that they have access to X lore or spells, like nagash having access to all of the soulblight spells. I would assume that counts as being "otherwise stated", and it could be updated in a FAQ to also include the universal spell lore.

It also states on the side of the spell enhancement bit, underlined and bolded EVERY wizard in the army knows an additional spell. Unique characters are a wizard in the army, so this could also be 'otherwise stated'