AoS 3 New Rules Discussion

[cadmachine]

43 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

If it's not called a Ward, then it's not a Ward. That is a different mechanic; the two can be mixed. 

The problem people are having (not me, I agree with you 100%) is the wording of the ward save rule says any rolls that happen at that point are all ward saves.

But why would they invent this rule/keyword then write a rule that would specifically fall under it and not call it a ward save or use the word ward in it.

[Mutton]

1 hour ago, Freejack02 said:

If it's not called a Ward, then it's not a Ward. That is a different mechanic; the two can be mixed. 

This isn't true. Anything that negates wounds is now considered a Ward save.

"Some abilities allow you to roll a dice to negate a
wound before it is allocated to a model. Abilities of
this type are referred to as wards, and the dice roll
is referred to as a ward roll."

As for the Praetors, it would be considered a Ward because it is an ability that can negate wounds. So if you had them near Yndrasta, you'd have to choose whether to use her 4+ ward, or to use their Guardian ability, since you only get one chance to negate an incoming wound.

So you could not roll Yn's 4+ ward, then pass it off to the Praetors. No doubling up.

They didn't do away with 5+++ saves only to bring them back with Wards. Not how it works.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Mutton

[cadmachine]

23 minutes ago, Mutton said:

This isn't true. Anything that negates wounds is now considered a Ward save.

"Some abilities allow you to roll a dice to negate a
wound before it is allocated to a model. Abilities of
this type are referred to as wards, and the dice roll
is referred to as a ward roll."

As for the Praetors, it would be considered a Ward because it is an ability that can negate wounds. So if you had them near Yndrasta, you'd have to choose whether to use her 4+ ward, or to use their Guardian ability, since you only get one chance to negate an incoming wound.

So you could not roll Yn's 4+ ward, then pass it off to the Praetors. No doubling up.

They didn't do away with 5+++ saves only to bring them back with Wards. Not how it works.

But why not include the word anywhere in the rule?
Why invent the rule then create a rule that does not reference it in any way when it would have been so easy to do so?

[Mutton]

16 minutes ago, cadmachine said:

But why not include the word anywhere in the rule?
Why invent the rule then create a rule that does not reference it in any way when it would have been so easy to do so?

Because they don't need to, it's codified in the core rules now what a ward save is. When you're writing the description for an ability like the Praetor, you're writing the sequence of possible events of a die roll. The Praetor's have a Ward, but it also has other conditions attached to it, like rolling low enough that the wound isn't passed to them at all.

You wouldn't say: "on a 1-2 the hero takes the wound, on a 3-4 the Praetors take the wound, on a 5+ they have a ward and negate the wound." It's just awkward and overly long. For this particular unit, their ability is more complex than simply "5+ ward"

[cadmachine]

1 hour ago, Mutton said:

Because they don't need to, it's codified in the core rules now what a ward save is. When you're writing the description for an ability like the Praetor, you're writing the sequence of possible events of a die roll. The Praetor's have a Ward, but it also has other conditions attached to it, like rolling low enough that the wound isn't passed to them at all.

You wouldn't say: "on a 1-2 the hero takes the wound, on a 3-4 the Praetors take the wound, on a 5+ they have a ward and negate the wound." It's just awkward and overly long. For this particular unit, their ability is more complex than simply "5+ ward"

Or "Praetors confer a ward save to the hero they select with the following conditions"?
And the whole point of this edition is to make stuff like this VERY clear, so not having the word they just created to clarify this issue to me reads as though it is NOT that rule.
Any other system, this would be the case.

Edit: GMG and goonhammer have all published articles/videos working on the assumption that it is not a ward, so its not just me

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by cadmachine

[Rune]

Interesting how you don't have to shoot with all your models in given unit now.

[Scurvydog]

33 minutes ago, cadmachine said:

Or "Praetors confer a ward save to the hero they select with the following conditions"?
And the whole point of this edition is to make stuff like this VERY clear, so not having the word they just created to clarify this issue to me reads as though it is NOT that rule.
Any other system, this would be the case.

Edit: GMG and goonhammer have all published articles/videos working on the assumption that it is not a ward, so its not just me

 

It is just a matter of wound allocation, many people do this all wrong, also most youtubers waste a lot of time removing models constantly in the middle of a combat activation, which makes the entire thing more complicated than it needs to be. For example Yndrasta takes 10 damage total that goes through her normal armor save. You then begin allocating wound. On a 1-2 the wound is still allocated to Yndrasta and she can use her 4+ ward to negate it. On a 3-4 it is allocated to the Praetors with no way of saving it further and on a 5-6 the wound is simply ignored. 

you can not simply give the Praetors a 5+ ward, that is not the same, as this triggers only when wounds are transferred to them, if you attack them directly they get no ward save. There is no saving roll taking place for the Praetors with the bodyguard rule. Alternatively they could have worded it something like a 3+ allocates a wound to the Praetors instead of the hero and if that happens they get a 4+ ward. That would still require 1 more dice roll to achieve the same thing. 

All in all it should be pretty clear how this works, however it seems to come from skimming over the basics, which especially the youtube wargamers are guilty of, even though I do enjoy the content mostly.

[SpiritofHokuto]

6 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

I dont know if anyone else brought this up, but I noticed that all Forests are now wyldwoods and 3" of them block LoS.

The LOS blocking can be useful. Unfortunately doesn't do anything for Sylvaneth as their abilities only work on Awakened Wyldwoods.

[zilberfrid]

I don't know who asked, but there are stull triumphs. Universal Triumphs are at the end of the rules section.

[Beliman]

I think that @Mutton is right. 

The Praetor's ability triggers before allocating wounds or mortal wounds (as ward saves), and they even have the same effect: negate a wound before it's allocated (that's not the same as ignore a wound!!).

So, Yndrasta has a 4+ ward save.

Praetors have: Roll a dice before you allocate a wound or mortal wound on  to that Hero while it is within 3" of this unit.

On a 1-2, that mortal wound is allocated to that Hero (Yndrasta can't use her Ward Save here).

On a 3-4, that wound or mortal wound is allocated to this unit.

On a 5-6, that wound or mortal wound is negated.

In other words: before a wound or mortal wound is allocated, on a conditional roll (within 3" of this unit) of 5-6, that wound or mortal wound is negated. That's exactly the description of Ward Save!

Quote

14.3 WARDS

Some abilities allow you to roll a dice to negate a wound before it is allocated to a model.

 

[Zappgrot]

7 minutes ago, Beliman said:

I think that @Mutton is right. 

The Praetor's ability triggers before allocating wounds or mortal wounds (as ward saves), and they even have the same effect: negate a wound before it's allocated (that's not the same as ignore a wound!!).

So, Yndrasta has a 4+ ward save.

Praetors have: Roll a dice before you allocate a wound or mortal wound on  to that Hero while it is within 3" of this unit.

On a 1-2, that mortal wound is allocated to that Hero (Yndrasta can't use her Ward Save here).

On a 3-4, that wound or mortal wound is allocated to this unit.

On a 5-6, that wound or mortal wound is negated.

In other words: before a wound or mortal wound is allocated, on a conditional roll (within 3" of this unit) of 5-6, that wound or mortal wound is negated. That's exactly the description of Ward Save!

 

I mean this is just prime gw design.  Making things more complex then necessary. I their main design goal. All that was needed to make supper clear. Was  This rule counts as /does not count as  a ward save at the end of the rule.  

[cadmachine]

2 minutes ago, Zappgrot said:

I mean this is just prime gw design.  Making things more complex then necessary. I their main design goal. All that was needed to make supper clear. Was  This rule counts as /does not count as  a ward save at the end of the rule.  

Precisely.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

45 minutes ago, Beliman said:

I think that @Mutton is right. 

The Praetor's ability triggers before allocating wounds or mortal wounds (as ward saves), and they even have the same effect: negate a wound before it's allocated (that's not the same as ignore a wound!!).

So, Yndrasta has a 4+ ward save.

Praetors have: Roll a dice before you allocate a wound or mortal wound on  to that Hero while it is within 3" of this unit.

On a 1-2, that mortal wound is allocated to that Hero (Yndrasta can't use her Ward Save here).

On a 3-4, that wound or mortal wound is allocated to this unit.

On a 5-6, that wound or mortal wound is negated.

In other words: before a wound or mortal wound is allocated, on a conditional roll (within 3" of this unit) of 5-6, that wound or mortal wound is negated. That's exactly the description of Ward Save!

Quote

14.3 WARDS

Some abilities allow you to roll a dice to negate a wound before it is allocated to a model.

 

It's worth pointing out that this is a change from how things worked before:

New rules:

Quote

Up to 1 ward roll can be made for each wound or mortal wound before it is allocated to the model in question.

GHB 2020:

Quote

You cannot make more than 1 dice roll (excluding re-rolls) to negate a wound or mortal wound that has been allocated to a model. If you could use more than one ability to negate allocated wounds or mortal wounds, you must pick which ability you will use.

In the past, damage prevention rolls were after allocation. This allowed you to get more than one DPR in some edge cases, like in OBR when using the Aegis Immortal battalion, which granted an ability very similar to the Praetors. In that case, you could use it to intercept an attempt to negate an unassigned wound, and if that failed you could try to negate the wound one time once it was assigned. This is not a possible scenario with Praetors thanks to the new rules.

[Ghoooouls]

Yep, under new core rules the praetors would not be used in addition to ynastras inbuilt ward.

I'm interested to know how previous 'shrugs' work now, is it the same?

Just compare it to Belladama from soulblight. Her 'wound shrug' is *before* allocating a wound or mortal wound to her. So she gets her armour save, then if that fails, before allocation of damage she gets the 3+ shrug onto wolves, then after that, when allocation of damage happens would she get her deathless minions 6++? As in the tome deathless minions is still *when* allocating damage, not before allocating.

Or do core rules trump this now and deathless minions is a ward?

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 minutes ago, Ghoooouls said:

Yep, under new core rules the praetors would not be used in addition to ynastras inbuilt ward.

I'm interested to know how previous 'shrugs' work now, is it the same?

Just compare it to Belladama from soulblight. Her 'wound shrug' is *before* allocating a wound or mortal wound to her. So she gets her armour save, then if that fails, before allocation of damage she gets the 3+ shrug onto wolves, then after that, when allocation of damage happens would she get her deathless minions 6++? As in the tome deathless minions is still *when* allocating damage, not before allocating.

Or do core rules trump this now and deathless minions is a ward?

Belladamma just has a normal bodyguard ability that does not involve wound negation. Even under the new rules, you definitely get to both (attempt to) pass off the wound and negate it.

The difference with Praetors is that their bodyguard ability comes with an inbuilt attempt to negate the wound while it is unassigned. That makes it a ward according to the core rules and it should mean that after using their bodyguard ability, you don't get another attempt to negate the wound.

You need to be aware of this, by the way, because it makes a bodyguard ability with built-in ward worse at keeping wound of a valuable model with a ward save than one that does not have built-in ward. If you have access to a bodyguard ability without ward, you still get to try to use the to-be-protected model's own ward. All things being equal, that's one extra roll to keep wounds off of your VIP.

[Dracan]

17 hours ago, Beliman said:

Good catch. Do you think that's intended for counter-play or are we going to see an errata?

I tell ya!! Don't trust superstitions, trust aethermatics!!

Looks like it is what they intended? 

But something else i just thought of, if i have wither stave or any other ability like archaons that forces the opponent to reroll successful hits of 6, now if the unit attacking has an ability that does MW on 6 it means he chooses to ignore my force reroll?

must say i dont like that idea..

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

18 minutes ago, Dracan said:

Looks like it is what they intended? 

But something else i just thought of, if i have wither stave or any other ability like archaons that forces the opponent to reroll successful hits of 6, now if the unit attacking has an ability that does MW on 6 it means he chooses to ignore my force reroll?

must say i dont like that idea..

It seems to me this rule is supposed to prevent the stacking of several positive triggered effects onto a single roll. Which is fair, those were always a source of confusion and the new edition seems to be moving towards limiting buff stacking. I would put down the fact that the rule currently breaks negative triggered effects as an oversight.

I would expect an FAQ entry about this, or a change in wording for negative triggered effects (enemy rerolls 6s) that makes it so that a player must choose to resolve those effects if they have a choice.

[Ghoooouls]

38 minutes ago, Dracan said:

Looks like it is what they intended? 

But something else i just thought of, if i have wither stave or any other ability like archaons that forces the opponent to reroll successful hits of 6, now if the unit attacking has an ability that does MW on 6 it means he chooses to ignore my force reroll?

must say i dont like that idea..

I'd say the reroll happens first. Core rules page 4 1.5.5 modifiers - states that anything that refers to an 'unmodified' roll, is referring to the dice AFTER rerolls. So if you have an ability that does mortal wounds on unmodified 6s to hit, archaons ability makes you reroll 6s to hit, and an 'unmodified' roll is after rerolls, so you reroll the 6 first, then check for unmodified 6s.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Ghoooouls

[Erdemo86]

I still think praetors ability don’t counts as ward save! Else it would say that.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Erdemo86

[Dracan]

30 minutes ago, Ghoooouls said:

I'd say the reroll happens first. Core rules page 4 1.5.5 modifiers - states that anything that refers to an 'unmodified' roll, is referring to the dice AFTER rerolls. So if you have an ability that does mortal wounds on unmodified 6s to hit, archaons ability makes you reroll 6s to hit, and an 'unmodified' roll is after rerolls, so you reroll the 6 first, then check for unmodified 6s.

While i follow your logic this is going to be a doozy to explain on the fly, in a pickup game, as both are considered triggered abilities even if the one is a reroll.

[Yondaime]

16 hours ago, stratigo said:

 

Teclis can mega buff himself to be very difficult to kill outside mass mortal wounds (so, like, other lumineth lul).

 

Wat lol, Max he can have is 4+ (quartz last 1 phase) 5++ (he have to waste 1 cast, and can be dispelled)

So if you shoot him while he isnt buffed he will die easily, and any heavy hitter in cqc will splat him in the ground

remember he costs 660 pts

[Kadeton]

38 minutes ago, Ghoooouls said:

I'd say the reroll happens first. Core rules page 4 1.5.5 modifiers - states that anything that refers to an 'unmodified' roll, is referring to the dice AFTER rerolls. So if you have an ability that does mortal wounds on unmodified 6s to hit, archaons ability makes you reroll 6s to hit, and an 'unmodified' roll is after rerolls, so you reroll the 6 first, then check for unmodified 6s.

Agreed. I'd hope for an FAQ that gives a clear example of this pretty early on though, because there are definitely people who will argue this ad infinitum at the table.

[Charleston]

10 minutes ago, Yondaime said:

Wat lol, Max he can have is 4+ (quartz last 1 phase) 5++ (he have to waste 1 cast, and can be dispelled)

So if you shoot him while he isnt buffed he will die easily, and any heavy hitter in cqc will splat him in the ground

remember he costs 660 pts

Well, with new Mystic Shield this goes up to 3+/5++ at least

[Sapca]

3 hours ago, SpiritofHokuto said:

The LOS blocking can be useful.

The only thing that block Smite from Priest to Priest.

[Kaylethia]

1 hour ago, Dracan said:

Looks like it is what they intended? 

But something else i just thought of, if i have wither stave or any other ability like archaons that forces the opponent to reroll successful hits of 6, now if the unit attacking has an ability that does MW on 6 it means he chooses to ignore my force reroll?

must say i dont like that idea..

The new Core rules had a bit about how if multiple effects trigger at the same time, the player who's turn it is, applies theirs, then the other players. If two abilities counter each other, the latest to be applied applies.

 

In your example, however, your ability to force rerolls happens earlier in the sequence, due to MW on natural sixes abilities triggering AFTER rerolls have been made. If your opponent has an ability that lets them reroll any hit rolls, they could apply that one instead, but only in your turn.

A bit of assumed developer intent: if you had full rerolls, you could reroll everything, but trigger your MW's twice, if it worked the way you're assuming, since you rolled sixes twice.