AoS 3 New Rules Discussion

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

4 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

 

The problem is the new battalions don't even fix the problem. Many armies still have subfactions that lock them into artifacts, and also artifacts they need to take in order to function well, so they're forced into taking one of the battalions that give artifacts. There's no opportunity cost for armies that don't need the extra artifacts.

Even in that case, the new battalions will probably make it easier to get those extra artefacts while making list building more flexible. The cheapers extra artefact in terms of drops seems to be from Command Entourage, assuming that is what an enhancement is. That would still make 4 drop possible, which is solid. I honestly don't think we will see most armies go 1-3 drops, there does not seem to be that much reason to do it.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 minute ago, Malakree said:

Ahh from the way you said it I did wonder if there was clarification from somewhere else.

Man did shooting armies get a massive boost from this though...

Depends how you look at it. You certainly won't make good use out of Unleash Hell and All-Out attack if you bring multiple small units of ranged attackers, since you can't spam them more than once per phase.

[tripchimeras]

Since all of the leaks last night/this morning the new ruleset really seems to be coming together as a much more coherent/cohesive idea.  And I'm honestly really optimistic at this point.  When the new batallions were leaked yesterday at first they seemed kinda week and I was thinking not sure what point cost I'd pay for these at.  But now that its clear they are free and basically you just divide your force up between them how you see fit they make a lot more sense and quite honestly add a really cool element to list design I think. 

The reinforcement changes are really not going to change a ton of things for most armies.  They really are only going to effect armies on the more extreme ends of the spectrum, which is a good thing.  I do think they will help as a soft debuff to seraphon and some of the other more abusive lists we were seeing in competitive play, but for most part its really not going to force a lot of change.  The clarification on CA's and only one being able to be in effect at once per unit combined with reinforcement rules alleviates some of my fears on those (though I still think unleash hell is going to be a bit of an issue).  And bringing all of these rules together I really do think we are getting a picture of a more intentional coherent game then I think the rule leaks at first implied.  Now how well this all works out of the gate is still going to be incredibly dependent on the pt changes and faqs but I am significantly more optimistic now then I was even a day or two ago.  Very cool stuff.

[Ganigumo]

4 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

This is a problem with the army books being wildly inconsistent. "Oh I have specific artifacts I want!" is also a pretty minor class of problems as books go, as opposed to "Oh most of my units are insanely overpointed" like Slaanesh or "Oh they clearly didn't understand my core rules or adjust them for the new updates so a core feature of my army, terrain placement, is often literally unworkable. Also my units are also insanely overpriced" which is Sylvaneth.

 

I think you have to judge the core rules as they are, and not ask the basic ruleset to fix absolutely jacked up design for some of the army books. Those need to be fixed with better army books, not band-aids in the core rules that create a leaky foundation.

 

Which is to say I agree with you, but really, the problem is the army book design.

And army book design was what was wrong with warscroll battalions in the first place, so really, they've made big changes and gotten nowhere, which is not what I like to see when I think AoS2 had the best ruleset in warhammer history (even if some of the army books missed the mark pretty wildly). 

[KrispyXIV]

1 minute ago, Yondaime said:

We are not sure about that

For how it is written in the article it even seems they are legal

 

It's theoretically possible, as well, that the new battalions are fundamentally different in some way that essentially makes warscroll ones obsolete, regardless.  

For instance, For the most part the benefits of the Core Battalions are a fraction of the base benefits of the old Warscroll battalions - its conceivable they don't come with a points cost.  

If that's true... how many of the old Warscroll battalions are even remotely viable by comparison, anyway?

That'd be a "soft" removal, without technically invalidating anything.  

That said, I'm personally assuming the core Battlepack only allows Core Battalions...

[Darkhan]

2 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Depends how you look at it. You certainly won't make good use out of Unleash Hell and All-Out attack if you bring multiple small units of ranged attackers, since you can't spam them more than once per phase.

Unless! "without the command beind issued and without a command point being spent". 
With slayers and expert battalion. If they cap unleash hell issue to 1 per turn, you issue the command without it being issued, so in theory, 2 times for that one turn in the battle.

[Malakree]

4 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Depends how you look at it. You certainly won't make good use out of Unleash Hell and All-Out attack if you bring multiple small units of ranged attackers, since you can't spam them more than once per phase.

Aye it's more to do with how ranges armies suffer less from split units due to no combat phase priority and how smaller units let you waste less shots into targets which are dead.

[AaronWilson]

18 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Short answer: Not in matched play

Long answer: Depends on your battlepack, but in general no theyre not legal in matched play any more

That was my impression before the article, but the article doesn't clarify that. 

[SpiritofHokuto]

6 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

It's theoretically possible, as well, that the new battalions are fundamentally different in some way that essentially makes warscroll ones obsolete, regardless.  

For instance, For the most part the benefits of the Core Battalions are a fraction of the base benefits of the old Warscroll battalions - its conceivable they don't come with a points cost.  

If that's true... how many of the old Warscroll battalions are even remotely viable by comparison, anyway?

That'd be a "soft" removal, without technically invalidating anything.  

That said, I'm personally assuming the core Battlepack only allows Core Battalions...

If battletome battalions just gave the battalion rules benefit and no command point/artefact/lower drops which seems to be the options for the core battalions. I think that would be a fair enough tradeoff. Points values (if core cost anything) for "problematic" battalions could also be changed in the GHB. 

[Ganigumo]

12 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:

Since all of the leaks last night/this morning the new ruleset really seems to be coming together as a much more coherent/cohesive idea.  And I'm honestly really optimistic at this point.  When the new batallions were leaked yesterday at first they seemed kinda week and I was thinking not sure what point cost I'd pay for these at.  But now that its clear they are free and basically you just divide your force up between them how you see fit they make a lot more sense and quite honestly add a really cool element to list design I think. 

The reinforcement changes are really not going to change a ton of things for most armies.  They really are only going to effect armies on the more extreme ends of the spectrum, which is a good thing.  I do think they will help as a soft debuff to seraphon and some of the other more abusive lists we were seeing in competitive play, but for most part its really not going to force a lot of change.  The clarification on CA's and only one being able to be in effect at once per unit combined with reinforcement rules alleviates some of my fears on those (though I still think unleash hell is going to be a bit of an issue).  And bringing all of these rules together I really do think we are getting a picture of a more intentional coherent game then I think the rule leaks at first implied.  Now how well this all works out of the gate is still going to be incredibly dependent on the pt changes and faqs but I am significantly more optimistic now then I was even a day or two ago.  Very cool stuff.

Interesting that the battalions are free I guess. Getting much too close to 40k detachments for my liking though (which I personally find overly restrictive).

[Perturbato]

Do allies fit in battalion ?

[Beliman]

38 minutes ago, chord said:

This is super confusing!!  

Wait, there is more!

You can't put any Gunhauler, Frigatte nor Ironclad in the "Artillery Batallion" even if they have WARMACHINE. Meanwhile, you can put a Frigatte and an Ironclad in to the "Monster batallion" and both units are not MONSTER.

Mindblown!!

Edited June 11, 2021 by Beliman

[Boar]

2 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Interesting that the battalions are free I guess

But are they, it's not really explicitly mentioned?

[Mcthew]

So battalions are free and only one of them counts as a 1 drop?

[tripchimeras]

3 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Interesting that the battalions are free I guess. Getting much too close to 40k detachments for my liking though (which I personally find overly restrictive).

Yeah I did think about that too.  I do think the changes they have adopted from 40k are some of the better ones though.  And at least for now it still feels like its own distinctive game.  I'm still not feeling too 40k adjacent.  Now if this continues next edition we may start to have issues.  But at least for right now, the changes that got carried over (coherence aside) mostly feel positive.

2 minutes ago, Boar said:

But are they, it's not really explicitly mentioned?

I should clarify that when I say "they are free now" It is more implied then explicit.  So this could turn out to be wrong.

[Erdemo86]

1.Can we take the same battalion more than once?

2.what are enhancements? Maybe artifacts count as enhancements? So they would solve the problem of 2nd/3rd artifact?

Edited June 11, 2021 by Erdemo86

[Mcthew]

Reading the new HoS 3.0 article I suddenly had a horrible thought:

Archaon/Gotrek/Sigvald + Heroic Action = 😱😭

[KrispyXIV]

Just now, Mcthew said:

So battalions are free and only one of them counts as a 1 drop?

It's currently unclear if they're free or not.  

A significant cost doesn't seem appropriate though, given that most give +1 effective CP or 1 enhancement, except for the really big ones - which is effectively 'one third' the basic benefit of a warscroll battalion in 2nd (which gave a CP, an artifact, and one drop).

So a cost of 40-50 points would be about what they're worth in terms of 2E, but I think it's more likely that they're free and we'll see general point increases for most armies. 

[SpiritofHokuto]

1 minute ago, Erdemo86 said:

1.Can we take the same battalion more than once?

2.what are enhancements? Maybe artifacts count as enhancements? So they would solve the problem of 2nd/3rd artifact?

Only thing we know for sure about Enhancements is giving Priests access to additional universal prayers. 

[Ganigumo]

2 minutes ago, Erdemo86 said:

1.Can we take the same battalion more than once?

2.what are enhancements? Maybe artifacts count as enhancements? So they would solve the problem of 2nd/3rd artifact?

From what I saw enhancements are artifacts/special prayers/triumphs/etc... although it wasn't the written rules I'd say its pretty safe to assume it's how we get access to additional artifacts.

[Perturbato]

2 minutes ago, SpiritofHokuto said:

Only thing we know for sure about Enhancements is giving Priests access to additional universal prayers. 

huh ? wasn't it free ?

[KrispyXIV]

2 minutes ago, Perturbato said:

huh ? wasn't it free ?

If you mean the Prayers, the preview article revealed that there are additional new Prayers available to all priests- as well as even more that are available as Enhancements.  

So some "free", some not. 

[SpiritofHokuto]

1 minute ago, Perturbato said:

huh ? wasn't it free ?

They get Bless and Smite as standard, but Enhancements give them access to others.  

[Perturbato]

Ok, thanks. Hope they don't touch my slaughterpriests anymore !!!

[Ragest]

 

1 hour ago, Yondaime said:

No they absolutely didnt, they just sayed that there is a big imbalance regarding WB in matched play and that there would be a fix  but they never specifically sayed they will be just narrative

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/05/08/warhammer-fest-online-day-6-warhammer-age-of-sigmars-new-edition/

 

Interview video 3:34