AoS 3 New Rules Discussion

[Chikout]

Just listening to honest Wargamer. He is saying that a unit can only receive one command  per phase and you can only use each command ability once per phase. So that's something at least. 

[Bosskelot]

55 minutes ago, feadair said:

I would not be too worried about Unleash Hell just yet. Its power depends on the overall context. In the new WH40k 9e the faction with the best overwatch abilities (Tau) is doing incredibly poorly. The main reason is the mission design. To win, you need to be able to capture and hold midfield objectives. This means that burly units that can charge in, eliminate the objective holder and thus capture it are extremely valuable. In other words, flipping an objective is a high priority. Shooty units can at best eliminate an objective holder one turn and then take it the next. They cannot do both at once.

The difference is, in 40K you cannot shoot into melee.

In AOS you can.

[Marcvs]

10 minutes ago, Bosskelot said:

The difference is, in 40K you cannot shoot into melee.

In AOS you can.

and 40k overwatch only hits on 6s and mortal wounds on shooting attacks are much more rare and...

[whispersofblood]

3 hours ago, peasant said:

Please can you elaborate on that? Which Risk if the sentinels are not being exposed to use UH? 

Maybe hoy shall reconsider what is bs

Because if you roll high or start close, you can move around the unit screening. We just spent a whole day moaning about how screens have been destroyed by coherency rules. 

Or if you charge with a unit that can't fly

Or if you can block line of sight with say an endless spells. As the hawk o my works in the shooting phase.

If you are a basic person, playing in a basic manner, you will get basic results.

 

[Yondaime]

Tbh its not fair to compare the shooting in aos and 40k, they are two different games that plays A LOT different

honestly i'll wait for the full picture and test some games, things that seems broken at starts maybe turns out different, maybe yes overwatch its broken but with the smaller board i can perhaps charge with 4 bloodthiersters turn 1 

lets wait

 

For sure i dont want another shootcast meta   

 

[Enoby]

Here is a more complete rumours on rules from a whatsapp group:

 

"Hallo! Hier mal einige neue, massive Rules-Leaks, deren Quelle ich nicht angeben kann. Aber ich lege meine Hand dafür ins Feuer, dass sie legit sind.  Hab sie alle für euch von Bildern abgetippt, bitteschön. 😘

- The players receive an extra command point if their General in on the table in the Hero Phase. Command Points not spent at the end of the Battle Round are lost. 

- Redeploy: A reactive Command Ability that is used in the enemy movement phase, and that allows moving a unit D6".

- Run and Movement Phase Command Abilities: A Unit that has rolled a Run roll cannot then be Commanded to "At the double" (where the run roll counts as a 6) - the decision has to be made whether to roll the dice of At the Double. A Player can no longer roll the dice, get a poor result and the choose to spend the command point to make the roll count as 6 - it's either/or, not both.

- Charge Phase Command Abilites: Forward to Victory is a Command aBility that allows charging units to reroll the charge roll. Unleash Hell is a reactive Command Ability that allows a unit near to the charging enemy unit to shoot the charging unit.

- Pile In: Models no longer need to pile in towards the nearest enemy modely. "The new wording is: When you male a pile-in move with a model, it must finish the move no further from the nearest enemy unit than it was at the start of the move." As such you can move around the edge of a unit when piling in.

-Attack Sequence: Hit Roll and Wound Roll modifiers are capped at +1/-1

- Slain models: A minor change that has a large impact on some armies: slain models are now not removed until all wounds caused to its unit have been allocated and all attacks that inflicted damage on the unit have been resolved.

- Wards: Some abilities allow ward rolls. Wards offer protection against wounds and mortal wounds before being allocated to a model. A successful ward roll negates a wound or mortal wound, and that damage has no effect on the model.

- Contesting Objectives: Unless rules take precedence, Monsters count as 5 models, and non-monsters with a wound characteristic of 5 or more (heroes), count as 2 models when Contesting Objectives.

- Miscasts: Wizards who roll an unmodified cast roll of "2" miscast their spell. They suffer D3 mortal wounds and cannot attempt to cast any more Spells in that Hero Phase.

- Spells: Arcane Bolt and Mystic Shield are now both cast on a "5". The effects of both speels have also both changed slightly, although very similar, they have a shorter range but are both more powerful.

- Pitched battle Profiles and Unit Size: Unit Maximums have now been removed but Reinforced Units have been introduced, as well as a limit of Reinforced Units in Marched Play. "Single" has been introduced as a keyword for Pitched Battle Profiles. "Single" Units cannot be Reinforced."

[Mcthew]

7 minutes ago, Enoby said:

-Attack Sequence: Hit Roll and Wound Roll modifiers are capped at +1/-1

Ah. Gloomspite players, please join the Khorne players currently sobbing in the corner.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Mcthew

[Mcthew]

12 minutes ago, Enoby said:

The players receive an extra command point if their General in on the table in the Hero Phase. Command Points not spent at the end of the Battle Round are lost.

Does this count for both players? If so, you can use up all your CPs in your own phase, and then get another CP in the enemy hero phase. So on that basis, where is the big win for going 2nd in a turn? An extra CP for going 2nd is hardly an incentive to avoid double-turns if we're now handing them out like sweets.

Thinking about, it makes going 2nd even more difficult. After all, you're having to second guess the use of CPs, whilst taking the initiative means a better chance at using all your CPs rather than losing unspent ones.

Unless... are CAs effects now restricted to turns rather than rounds or until the next hero phase?

Edited June 9, 2021 by Mcthew

[Yondaime]

13 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Here is a more complete rumours on rules from a whatsapp group:

 

"Hallo! Hier mal einige neue, massive Rules-Leaks, deren Quelle ich nicht angeben kann. Aber ich lege meine Hand dafür ins Feuer, dass sie legit sind.  Hab sie alle für euch von Bildern abgetippt, bitteschön. 😘

- The players receive an extra command point if their General in on the table in the Hero Phase. Command Points not spent at the end of the Battle Round are lost. 

- Redeploy: A reactive Command Ability that is used in the enemy movement phase, and that allows moving a unit D6".

- Run and Movement Phase Command Abilities: A Unit that has rolled a Run roll cannot then be Commanded to "At the double" (where the run roll counts as a 6) - the decision has to be made whether to roll the dice of At the Double. A Player can no longer roll the dice, get a poor result and the choose to spend the command point to make the roll count as 6 - it's either/or, not both.

- Charge Phase Command Abilites: Forward to Victory is a Command aBility that allows charging units to reroll the charge roll. Unleash Hell is a reactive Command Ability that allows a unit near to the charging enemy unit to shoot the charging unit.

- Pile In: Models no longer need to pile in towards the nearest enemy modely. "The new wording is: When you male a pile-in move with a model, it must finish the move no further from the nearest enemy unit than it was at the start of the move." As such you can move around the edge of a unit when piling in.

-Attack Sequence: Hit Roll and Wound Roll modifiers are capped at +1/-1

- Slain models: A minor change that has a large impact on some armies: slain models are now not removed until all wounds caused to its unit have been allocated and all attacks that inflicted damage on the unit have been resolved.

- Wards: Some abilities allow ward rolls. Wards offer protection against wounds and mortal wounds before being allocated to a model. A successful ward roll negates a wound or mortal wound, and that damage has no effect on the model.

- Contesting Objectives: Unless rules take precedence, Monsters count as 5 models, and non-monsters with a wound characteristic of 5 or more (heroes), count as 2 models when Contesting Objectives.

- Miscasts: Wizards who roll an unmodified cast roll of "2" miscast their spell. They suffer D3 mortal wounds and cannot attempt to cast any more Spells in that Hero Phase.

- Spells: Arcane Bolt and Mystic Shield are now both cast on a "5". The effects of both speels have also both changed slightly, although very similar, they have a shorter range but are both more powerful.

- Pitched battle Profiles and Unit Size: Unit Maximums have now been removed but Reinforced Units have been introduced, as well as a limit of Reinforced Units in Marched Play. "Single" has been introduced as a keyword for Pitched Battle Profiles. "Single" Units cannot be Reinforced."

These rumors are VERY strange, even the slain model rules is clunky as hell, you have to remember how many wounds are taken for each unit and then remove the models, its mental lol

And i dont want even to start with the not maximum unit size lol

Edited June 9, 2021 by Yondaime

[Golub87]

Interestingly, no cap on saves...

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

5 minutes ago, Yondaime said:

These rumors are VERY strange, even the slain model rules is clunky as hell, you have to remember how many wounds are taken for each unit and then remove the models, its mental lol

Just tip them over and take them off the board at the end, it's not that hard.

[GutrotSpume]

Oh the irony of making piling in more flexible when they’ve simultaneously locked units of 6+ into ultra restrictive coherency rules. 🤦🏻‍♂️

[Mcthew]

11 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

I mean GW themselves said these were the best rules ever.

No, but they are.

Truly.

The best. Ever.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

13 minutes ago, GutrotSpume said:

Oh the irony of making piling in more flexible when they’ve simultaneously locked units of 6+ into ultra restrictive coherency rules. 🤦🏻‍♂️

That's not ironic, that's the only way more locked-in formations are actually workable. Otherwise it would be super hard to pile in without losing coherency.

EDIT: I actually mentioned the need for this change yesterday after the coherency rules were revealed:

On 6/8/2021 at 2:20 PM, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I hope with the new coherency rule we get new pile in rules that let models from a unit that piles in move toward the nearest unit, not model. Otherwise things might get really fiddly.

If this new leak is actually legit, that would reinforce my trust in GWs ability to actually write workable rules. If pile ins are actually changed to work with the new coherency, I am fairly certain new rules for fighting in multiple ranks are also coming, because changing coherency really necessitates the other two changes if things are supposed to remain fun.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

28 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Contesting Objectives: Unless rules take precedence, Monsters count as 5 models, and non-monsters with a wound characteristic of 5 or more (heroes), count as 2 models when Contesting Objectives.

Pitched battle Profiles and Unit Size: Unit Maximums have now been removed but Reinforced Units have been introduced, as well as a limit of Reinforced Units in Marched Play. "Single" has been introduced as a keyword for Pitched Battle Profiles. "Single" Units cannot be Reinforced."

These ones are big if true. Monsters being able to participate in the objective game makes them a lot better. Combined with rampages, I think they become a very desirable unit type and the MONSTER keyword becomes quite good. You know that little 100 point Mindstealer Sphiranx? Now captures for 5 and rampages. Pretty cool! Still hoping the WAR MACHINE keyword also gets something cool at some point, though.

Reinforced/Single is also an interesting distinction, depending how it's implemented. If you actually have to make a choice between big capturing blocks and big attack/shooting blocks, that's certainly quite different to how things are right now. Or just play MSU I guess.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Laststand]

1 hour ago, Golub87 said:

You are 100% correct, of course.
That said, that is not an argument in favor of current system. I have played games where you simply put "unformed" token next to the formation that fell apart for whatever reason. It is not a perfect representation of what is actually happening, but it is far closer to the truth than whatever this is AND it is simpler for the player AND it allows for better and more interesting game due to the way it interacts with other elements of the game.

 

From my standpoint, and feel free to correct me if I am wrong, when designing a rule for the game there are three things to be taken into account. Priority varies and sometimes not even all three things are considered, depending on designer goals, but any given rule must conform and reinforce at least one of these elements:

1. Gameplay - does the rule make playing the game more elegant? Does it provide more interesting choices to the players? Does it interact favorably with other rules?
Semi-independent unit movement that we have right now fails here because the game is not more elegant (tedium of pushing individual figures), choices are not really meaningful due to lack of constraints (you can push your unit trough terrain the same way you push it over open field - no risk of being unformed vs reward of being in cover there), and it does not interact favorably with other rules (best example being within vs wholly within song and dance - game is a mess of aura bubbles now due to the nature of formations).

2. Narrative - does the rule help tell a story? Does it result in a spectacle on the table? Is it pretty?

Absolutely not - two most common formations were noodle lines of infantry and sideways cav formations.... No legion-like tight blocks of Ossiarchs or the like. And now we get these complex geometries in the new rule-set. It is ugly.

3. Simulation - does the rule help simulate reality? Does it drive the game in the direction where the outcomes would be similar to RL?
Again, a dud. See above as to why. No one has ever used the formations that are used in this game.

Again, not every game has to equally support all three. Chess is all about gameplay, for example. But when writing a rule, you have to get at least one of these in order to justify it.

And this is not the only rule where AoS simply fails to satisfy even one of the important game design points.

Fair points. There have to be answers to some of these issues (and other games have probably found some) but GW frequently seem to go with something that hasnt been properly reviewed for each faction. Alternatively they may be winding our clocks tight so we are relieved when its shown to not be that bad. Having a hero near by might change coherancy restrictions or unleash hell might cost 3CP or something. 

This makes a joke of the "best rule set ever" but will probably be workable. 

[PJetski]

36 minutes ago, Enoby said:

- Pile In: Models no longer need to pile in towards the nearest enemy modely. "The new wording is: When you male a pile-in move with a model, it must finish the move no further from the nearest enemy unit than it was at the start of the move." As such you can move around the edge of a unit when piling in.

This is already how the rule works. It didn't work this way in AOS 1st edition, but they changed it in 2nd edition

[Marcvs]

Just now, PJetski said:

This is already how the rule works. It didn't work this way in AOS 1st edition, but they changed it in 2nd edition

I think the difference is nearest UNIT not nearest MODEL

[PJetski]

1 minute ago, Marcvs said:

I think the difference is nearest UNIT not nearest MODEL

Ah, that's an interesting distinction. I'll wait to see the official rules though

[annarborhawk]

If unused command points are lost at the end of a battleround, then the player going second will not be able to use Unleash Hell (or other out-of-turn CAs) against the player going first in the battleround. 

Does this not make it even MORE important to get the double turn against a shooting army?  Seems like a melee army's best chance to make into combat is to outdrop, choose to go second, weather top of 1 shooting, than use bottom of 1 and top of 2 to get your charges in without suffering unleash hell.

Or maybe command points will be generated by both players at the beginning of each battle round?

[SpiritofHokuto]

2 minutes ago, annarborhawk said:

Or maybe command points will be generated by both players at the beginning of each battle round?

I'd imagine this is how it'll work. Otherwise reactive CA's would be pretty hard to get off. 

[annarborhawk]

Seems like Soulblight Gravelords have a good counter to Unleash Hell. Belladama Volga has a 18" spell that can turn models in an enemy unit into dire wolves. That unit would then be in contact with an enemy unit and would not be eligible for Unleash Hell, e.g., against a unit of BLoodKnights chargings into screening wardens, or something.

 

(As I think about it, I suppose the shooting unit could use "Reposition" (if that's a thing) and try to move d6" away from the wolves in the Soulblight movement phase???)

[Ragest]

4 minutes ago, annarborhawk said:

If unused command points are lost at the end of a battleround, then the player going second will not be able to use Unleash Hell (or other out-of-turn CAs) against the player going first in the battleround. 

Does this not make it even MORE important to get the double turn against a shooting army?  Seems like a melee army's best chance to make into combat is to outdrop, choose to go second, weather top of 1 shooting, than use bottom of 1 and top of 2 to get your charges in without suffering unleash hell.

Or maybe command points will be generated by both players at the beginning of each battle round?

Will be generated for both at the beggining of each round

[Scurvydog]

2 minutes ago, annarborhawk said:

Or maybe command points will be generated by both players at the beginning of each battle round?

That was already established in the article. The player going second will then have a 1 CP advantage for that battle round

 

 

[Marcvs]

1 minute ago, Scurvydog said:

That was already established in the article. The player going second will then have a 1 CP advantage for that battle round

 

 

it is still possible that there will be a difference between these "starting CP" (generated at the start of the round) and "other CP" (from the general, hero action and so on) generated in each players' hero phase.