Sivyre Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 7 hours ago, Malakree said: Hide contents Allegiance: Kruleboyz- Warclan: Grinnin' Blades- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line- Triumphs:LeadersKillaboss on Corpse-Rippa Vulcha (240)- General- Command Trait: Supa Sneaky- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)- Mount Trait: Fast 'UnSwampcalla Shaman with Pot-grot (105)Swampcalla Shaman with Pot-grot (105)Battleline30 x Gutrippaz (540)- Reinforced x 220 x Gutrippaz (360)- Reinforced x 120 x Gutrippaz (360)- Reinforced x 1Units10 x Hobgrot Slittaz (80)10 x Hobgrot Slittaz (80)ArtilleryBeast-skewer Killbow (130)Total: 2000 / 2000Reinforced Units: 4 / 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 191Drops: 1 Why not something more like this. Focus on putting hard to shift wounds on the board with lots of infantry. It all goes in a battle regiment as well which means you're a 1 drop. Hobgrots for screening. Gutrippaz go on objectives and the beast-skewer is your answer for those pita things. The Supa Sneaky and Grinnin' Blades also combos really well for dumpstering the opponents hero phase if they are magic heavy. You’re hardcore to run that list in the current meta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivyre Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Jabbuk said: So, I noticed that some of the lists you guys propose don't have any casters in it (I think the shaman doesn't count since he's in it for the potion). You guys are ok with that? I mean I always think I need some kind of magic in my lists at least. What's your rationale around building lists without casters? 300 points support utility piece that can cast 2 dispel 2 with nearly all spell lores having a CV of 7+ with no +1 to cast and an abysmal save of 5+ 6++… you will see very few successful casts and an equally amount of successful unbinds vs you. there’s a reason many aren't including this expensive $$$ model in their lists, sure it does well vs an army with equally poor magic. But Even then are you even concerned about their magic? The armies that do have good magic this model isn’t going to do anything for you. all in all this thing is far too situational. Great model, janky warscroll destruction as a whole suffers when it comes to magic without easy access to cheaper wizards or any easy access to +1 to casts. Things get widely unreliable when your trying to cast a 7+ spell and especially into your opponents +values. So players find it better to exclude this thought, save the points and invest into the other more apparent more reliable strengths of the army. 300 points for gobsprakk or 315 for what probably is a 2nd sludgeraker for example. Edited September 20, 2021 by Sivyre 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabbuk Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 49 minutes ago, Sivyre said: 300 points support utility piece that can cast 2 dispel 2 with nearly all spell lores having a CV of 7+ with no +1 to cast and an abysmal save of 5+ 6++… you will see very few successful casts and an equally amount of successful unbinds vs you. there’s a reason many aren't including this expensive $$$ model in their lists, sure it does well vs an army with equally poor magic. But Even then are you even concerned about their magic? The armies that do have good magic this model isn’t going to do anything for you. all in all this thing is far too situational. Great model, janky warscroll destruction as a whole suffers when it comes to magic without easy access to cheaper wizards or any easy access to +1 to casts. Things get widely unreliable when your trying to cast a 7+ spell and especially into your opponents +values. So players find it better to exclude this thought, save the points and invest into the other more apparent more reliable strengths of the army. 300 points for gobsprakk or 315 for what probably is a 2nd sludgeraker for example. Thats very interesting. Would you be more tempted to build him as. Killaboss on Vulcha then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivyre Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Jabbuk said: Thats very interesting. Would you be more tempted to build him as. Killaboss on Vulcha then? I am 100% building KB on the vulcha because the ability to issue a previously used CA alone is worth his 240 points, 2 blocks of boltboyz using unleash hell is no laughing matter. Other armies that have this ability pay a lot more in points. The armies that don’t have this ability wished they did. Odds are you’re already including a KB for the battle shock protection… so might aswell get the best of the 3 KB options with a stellar ability Edited September 20, 2021 by Sivyre 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabbuk Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, Sivyre said: I am 100% building KB on the vulcha because the ability to issue a previously used CA alone is worth his 240 points, 2 blocks of boltboyz using unleash hell is no laughing matter. Other armies that have this ability pay a lot more in points. The armies that don’t have this ability wished they did. Odds are you’re already including a KB for the battle shock protection… so might aswell get the best of the 3 KB options with a stellar ability That's what I was wondering, does he provide the battleshock immunity too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivyre Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Jabbuk said: That's what I was wondering, does he provide the battleshock immunity too? Yuppers, he has all the same features as with the other KB’s but for 70 points more from the gnashtooth you gain more movement, more wounds, fly, mount has the allegiance rule (venom encrusted weapons) and the ability to issue another CA that has been previously used. not to mention it has a marginally better save then our gobsprakk friend (4+ vs gobs 5+) and it can have an artifact. I would argue that for most lists this model is auto include along side sludgeraker Edited September 20, 2021 by Sivyre 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabbuk Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 14 minutes ago, Sivyre said: Yuppers, he has all the same features as with the other KB’s but for 70 points more from the gnashtooth you gain more movement, more wounds, fly, mount has the allegiance rule (venom encrusted weapons) and the ability to issue another CA that has been previously used. not to mention it has a marginally better save then our gobsprakk friend (4+ vs gobs 5+) and it can have an artifact. I would argue that for most lists this model is auto include along side sludgeraker Damn, that's badass. I might build my model as him instead then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivyre Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 4 minutes ago, Jabbuk said: Damn, that's badass. I might build my model as him instead then. Well you build the model you want in the end, while I will be doing KB on vulcha I plan to magnetize the riders because GW as we all know like to be goofs and sure gobs not so good now but down the road he could get beefed up 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stux Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 9 hours ago, Sivyre said: I would argue that for most lists this model is auto include along side sludgeraker Or would be, were it not for his real money price 😞 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuchur Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 Hi all, is there any reason why I should prefer Swampboss Skumdrekk over a generic Sludgeraker? Thanks in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachmani Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 Not if you intent to give your Sludgeraker the amulet of destiny, but he could be very viable as a second sludgeraker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acrozatarim Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 (edited) I'm not so sold on the superiority of the vulcha-riding Killaboss. He's good, don't get me wrong, but I don't think he's a must-pick. Compared to a Gnashtoof-rider he's about as resilient (4 more wounds but the Gnashtoof hits the extremely good 3+ save watermark). If the Gnashtoof gets a charge, then the vulcha-rider is only .4 wounds ahead of the Gnashtoof on average against a 4+ save target (7.8 wounds vs 7.4 wounds). The vulcha-rider also has a very large base which can be handy for spreading that battleshock resistance around, but is also more difficult to bubble-wrap with screens, and more difficult to fit into a densely-packed warband gathered round a Sludgeraker to give that battleshock resistance to in the first place. What you're getting for your 70 points is the flying, it being a monster for VPs, and the (really good!) command ability power. Since a Killaboss seems to be often getting slotted in primarily for the battleshock resistance, though, I'm not convinced that every list is going to have the 70 or 130 points left over just to give him a prestige mount when those points could go on more shooting or towards another Sludgeraker. Or, indeed, on Gobsprakk, since plenty of folks do seem to see him as pretty solid regardless. Edited September 21, 2021 by Acrozatarim 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dejnar Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 (edited) Do you guys think the KB on Vulcha and Gobsprakk can be magnetised? That would solve alot! Edited September 21, 2021 by Dejnar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stux Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 Just now, Dejnar said: Do you guys thin the KB on Vulcha and Gobsprakk can be magnetised? That would solve alot! Without building the kit, I would speculate that swapping the rider shouldn't be too difficult. There's lots of more subtle differences that would be much more of a pain though, eg the vultures have different neck/heads. Depends how particular you are on that sort of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuchur Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Rachmani said: Not if you intent to give your Sludgeraker the amulet of destiny, but he could be very viable as a second sludgeraker. Ok thanks so would you say Skumdrekk is better than a generic Sludgeraker without the amulet? I`m working on a Big Waagh! List and the amulet goes to the Mawkrusha and now I`m thinking about taking Skumdrekk or a regular Sludgeraker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dejnar Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 15 minutes ago, Stux said: Without building the kit, I would speculate that swapping the rider shouldn't be too difficult. There's lots of more subtle differences that would be much more of a pain though, eg the vultures have different neck/heads. Depends how particular you are on that sort of thing. Nice. Not particular att all. Like the Gob-Vulcha better on looks. Will just put a KB on that straight up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakree Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 32 minutes ago, Fuchur said: Ok thanks so would you say Skumdrekk is better than a generic Sludgeraker without the amulet? I`m working on a Big Waagh! List and the amulet goes to the Mawkrusha and now I`m thinking about taking Skumdrekk or a regular Sludgeraker. On profile alone swampdrek is so much better it's unreal. For 5 points you get. +1 wound, +1 attack with his snatcha-stikk, +1 damage on the noisome bite and his snatch and grab is equal and greater, not just greater than. If you aren't giving it an artefact or command trait there's no good reason not to upgrade him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acrozatarim Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 Worth noting that Skumdrekk's weapon is slightly worse than a regular Snatchaboss's - he has 4 attacks at damage 2, while the Snatchaboss has 3 attacks at damage 3. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlmGandix3 Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 From what I have seen on YouTube skumdrekk and snatchaboss just have different torsos (and different heads for the beast if that's important) so you could easily magnetize them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakree Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Acrozatarim said: Worth noting that Skumdrekk's weapon is slightly worse than a regular Snatchaboss's - he has 4 attacks at damage 2, while the Snatchaboss has 3 attacks at damage 3. I missed that, it is an important point. Just did a quick diceroller analysis. It should be noted that the 13+ damage actually can't occur, it appears because you can't do "on 6s stop" so I use an approximation. Two sets of attacks, 4+/3+/(5+ save)/x and 6/auto/none/x This gives an approximation but not 100% it's "close" as we say in mathematics. EDIT: This is the correct chart. Edited September 21, 2021 by Malakree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachmani Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 To me, the KB on foot is one of the sleepers of this book. He also has a 3+ save, counts as a normal hero for battalions, gets look out sir & has his little grob to sac when needed. I really like him. Anyway as of late I enjoy 1500 more and more. Feels less hero hammer and a bit more unit focussed. But maybe that’s just me & my opponents. Here is the list, it’s really flexible & you can build a variety of slightly different lists with it; even clans. In Grinning Blades you have to take 2x10 Gutrippers, in Big Yellers you have more flexibility (and could divide the boltboys 9/3 instead of 6/6) but in general I prefer 2x10 rippers at this point size. I’m not completely set on the battalions, but probably 1 Kruleboys finga 1 Warlord Battalion for 1 extra enchantment Killaboss on foot, General, super sneaky (but could be Egomaniak if needed), Mork‘s Eye Pebble or Eye-biter-Ash (from warlord) - 110 Sludgeraker - Amulet of Destiny, Super smelly or Mean ‘Un. Maybe even Loud ‘Un. 315 Swampcalla - 105 10 Gutrippers - 180 10 Gutrippers - 180 6 Boltboys - 240 6 Boltboys - 240 1 Killabow - 130 1500/1500 flexible, decently killy, enough bodies and one or two nasty surprises through our artifacts and especially dirty tricks. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabbuk Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 2 hours ago, Malakree said: On profile alone swampdrek is so much better it's unreal. For 5 points you get. +1 wound, +1 attack with his snatcha-stikk, +1 damage on the noisome bite and his snatch and grab is equal and greater, not just greater than. If you aren't giving it an artefact or command trait there's no good reason not to upgrade him. Something to note though is that he has the Grinnin Blades keywords I believe, so he wouldn't benefit from the other factions buffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakree Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 1 minute ago, Jabbuk said: Something to note though is that he has the Grinnin Blades keywords I believe, so he wouldn't benefit from the other factions buffs. Which is irrelevant unless you are going Skulbugz which most seem not to be at the moment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 (edited) 18 hours ago, Sivyre said: 300 points support utility piece that can cast 2 dispel 2 with nearly all spell lores having a CV of 7+ with no +1 to cast and an abysmal save of 5+ 6++… you will see very few successful casts and an equally amount of successful unbinds vs you. Here are some numbers on spellcasting: Casting Value Odds to succeed Odds to succeed against unbinds Odds against unbind (+1 to cast) 12 0,03 0,03 0,08 11 0,08 0,08 0,17 10 0,17 0,16 0,27 9 0,28 0,25 0,4 8 0,42 0,35 0,54 7 0,58 0,45 0,64 6 0,72 0,51 0,71 5 0,83 0,54 0,74 4 0,92 0,55 0,76 3 0,97 0,56 0,76 2 1 0,56 0,76 Some interesting points: +1 to cast allows you to "double-dip" when it comes to successfully casting spells. It makes it easier to reach your casting value, and makes it harder for the opponent to beat your roll in order to unbind. Casting any spell without a casting bonus and in the face of an unbind should basically be treated as a coin flip at best. Even low CV spells. +1 to cast is a massive boost to your spell casting abilities if unbinds are taken into account. In most relevant cases, it's an increas of 20 percentage points to your chance of success. The number bear out the rule of thumb that wizards that are worse than 2 casts, +1 to cast are bad. Anything worse than that should be treated as "this model occasionally provides additional value through magic" rather than "I take this model for its magic capabilties". Edited September 21, 2021 by Neil Arthur Hotep 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arzalyn Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 51 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: Here are some numbers on spellcasting: Casting Value Odds to succeed Odds to succeed against unbinds Odds against unbind (+1 to cast) 12 0,03 0,03 0,08 11 0,08 0,08 0,17 10 0,17 0,16 0,27 9 0,28 0,25 0,4 8 0,42 0,35 0,54 7 0,58 0,45 0,64 6 0,72 0,51 0,71 5 0,83 0,54 0,74 4 0,92 0,55 0,76 3 0,97 0,56 0,76 2 1 0,56 0,76 Some interesting points: +1 to cast allows you to "double-dip" when it comes to successfully casting spells. It makes it easier to reach your casting value, and makes it harder for the opponent to beat your roll in order to unbind. Casting any spell without a casting bonus and in the face of an unbind should basically be treated as a coin flip at best. Even low CV spells. +1 to cast is a massive boost to your spell casting abilities if unbinds are taken into account. In most relevant cases, it's an increas of 20 percentage points to your chance of success. The number bear out the rule of thumb that wizards that are worse than 2 casts, +1 to cast are bad. Anything worse than that should be treated as "this model occasionally provides additional value through magic" rather than "I take this model for its magic capabilties". Thanks for the numbers! May I ask how much re rolling one of the the casting dices improve the chances for a 1 cast wizard? I wondering if the Master of Magic trait could help improve those probabilities and open some reliability on our spell lore without having to go Big Waag for the +1 to cast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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