AoS3 - Kruleboyz Discussion

[Zorki]

If we listen, for the 3/4 of people here, Guttripaz suck... Maybe these guys have to check the actual tournament KB's list report like Quebec, Australia & Belgium. Check out the Corey Papinnieni interview from Plastic Craic (One of the best Australian player) : https://plasticcraic.blog/2021/09/24/battletome-orruk-warclans-kruleboyz-with-corey-papinniemi/ 2 × 20 Guttripaz all the time for him.

When we check the Quebec KB list : Always 2 x10 Guttripaz / 1x20 or 2x20. Screen they use Shootas instead of Hobgrot.

2 competitive list work really well at high level : 2 Sludgeraker/ 2 shaman etc… or 1 Sludgeraker/ 2 shaman / 1 Mirebrute etc.. 

 

So the players who trash talk or calculate the value of Gutrippaz have to worry about what is playing/Meta + %win by faction/subfaction (LRL/KB are very similar in % victory) + victory scenery.

 

=> Play and mastery your own style /list will work better than what is the "best list" but spamming Boltboyz is a trap (2x6 or 1x9 max) 

 

Honest wargamer analyse :

 

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Zorki
Link added

[Underworld40k]

1 hour ago, Zorki said:

If we listen, for the 3/4 of people here, Guttripaz suck... Maybe these guys have to check the actual tournament KB's list report like Quebec, Australia & Belgium. Check out the Corey Papinnieni interview from Plastic Craic (One of the best Australia player) : 2 × 20 Guttripaz all the time from him.

When we check the Quebec KB list : Always 2 x10 Guttripaz / 1x20 or 2x20. Screen they use Shootas instead of Hobgrot.

2 competitive list work really well at high level : 2 Sludgeraker/ 2 shaman etc… or 1 Sludgeraker/ 2 shaman / 1 Mirebrute etc.. 

 

So the players who trash talk or calculate the value of Gutrippaz have to worry about what is playing/Meta + %win by faction/subfaction (LRL/KB are very similar in % victory) + victory scenery.

 

=> Play and mastery your own style /list will work better than what is the "best list" but spamming Boltboyz is a trap (2x6 or 1x9 max).

It is interesting to me that Gutrippaz are so swingy in so many peoples evaluation. For me half the problem for me is the knee ****** reaction that the warscroll is very underwhelming and the points are very high for it. 9 points a wound is fairly average but when you have to cough up 180 points in 1 chunk seems steep especially when ard boyz cost 170 for the same number of wounds. But VEW is actually so strong and the in faction combos really up them to pretty strong. I wouldn't mind seeing a 5/10 point drop on them to encourage them, especially in the bigger blocks though.

[Karazla]

I always play with the double 20 gutrippaz. U need to be consertive with command points but overal had succes but mostly fun games for both sides. Normaly play giants. I want to thry out a list with 60 rippaz because looks fun

[Ganigumo]

14 hours ago, Fabbbio said:

Take note, even poisons and elixirs can't be given if gutrippaz are in melee. I think this army requires some finesse and micromanagement, where you want to engage combat only at the right moment and with the right units. Your charging with everyone only if you planning a whaagh, but in the most common situations you want at leat a unit not being engaged in order to use the skareshields and the poisons later. With this in mind, battleshock is also easier to manage.

Edit: and tbh, do we even need to make more that 20 W in a single phase to an enemy horde unit?

The current aos meta really rewards overwhelming damage, and 20W in a phase isn't enough to rip through the dps checks tarpits demand. 10 pinks have a real chance of holding 20 gutrippaz for the entire game. Its enough damage to deal with most high save targets though, and might be enough to take a mega gargant down if its been softened up by our ranged attacks.

My big beef with poisons and elixirs IS that it can't be given to units in melee. Its a restriction that basically only affects gutrippaz. It wouldn't break the army if that restriction was removed either, it would open up gutrippa heavy builds in a big way.

2 hours ago, Zorki said:

If we listen, for the 3/4 of people here, Guttripaz suck... Maybe these guys have to check the actual tournament KB's list report like Quebec, Australia & Belgium. Check out the Corey Papinnieni interview from Plastic Craic (One of the best Australia player) : 2 × 20 Guttripaz all the time from him.

When we check the Quebec KB list : Always 2 x10 Guttripaz / 1x20 or 2x20. Screen they use Shootas instead of Hobgrot.

2 competitive list work really well at high level : 2 Sludgeraker/ 2 shaman etc… or 1 Sludgeraker/ 2 shaman / 1 Mirebrute etc.. 

 

So the players who trash talk or calculate the value of Gutrippaz have to worry about what is playing/Meta + %win by faction/subfaction (LRL/KB are very similar in % victory) + victory scenery.

 

=> Play and mastery your own style /list will work better than what is the "best list" but spamming Boltboyz is a trap (2x6 or 1x9 max).

I think those lists are trying to fit into 1-2 drops aren't they? Which is why 1x20 grots is better than 2x10 hobgrots since the reinforcement points are used up on the boltboyz/gutrippaz. The strat is to use waaagh! To get a powerful alpha turn but this is definitely something that can be played around through positioning (or killing the general if they have the range/output). Gutrippaz make sense here because nothing else fits in the battalion with the KB keyword and decent melee output except maybe a rogue idol?

1 hour ago, Underworld40k said:

It is interesting to me that Gutrippaz are so swingy in so many peoples evaluation. For me half the problem for me is the knee ****** reaction that the warscroll is very underwhelming and the points are very high for it. 9 points a wound is fairly average but when you have to cough up 180 points in 1 chunk seems steep especially when ard boyz cost 170 for the same number of wounds. But VEW is actually so strong and the in faction combos really up them to pretty strong. I wouldn't mind seeing a 5/10 point drop on them to encourage them, especially in the bigger blocks though.

GW definitely taxed weight of wounds for some reason. Gutrippaz at 180, ardboyz at 170, and savage Orruks at 165 definitely feels wrong. When you consider the amount of points you need to invest to make gutrippaz do work, and the limitations on their abilities they could probably drop 20-30 points. 20 Gutrippaz actually costs ~465 because you'll need a shaman to buff that unit, and likely a sludgeraker to pump it further (but at least the sludgeraker will do other work as well).

[Fabbbio]

12 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

The current aos meta really rewards overwhelming damage, and 20W in a phase isn't enough to rip through the dps checks tarpits demand.

Depends on the perspective. The damage output of gutrippaz is weird since it's almost all made of mws. It becomes overwhelming of units with low save. And even units with Ward will find it hard to pass all those rolls. Of course our unit finds harder to fight the cheapest hordes, but still i think we can work around it. Not focusing only on math but also battle tactics is key

[NauticalSoup]

Isn't it possible for Gutrippaz to be both bad AND simultaneously necessary to be successful in KB? The army list doesn't exactly have any substitutes for that role. In Ironjawz as a random example, for a long time you had a direct apples-to-apples comparison between two equivalent like units which is how you could say 'brutes are bad' and be supremely confident you were right: because nearly everyone used Ardboys instead. Can't do that with KB, you want to win games you suck it up and make do with the tools you have.

[whispersofblood]

4 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

LRL plays a lot like KB but are just better at it, in that regard KB seems like the balanced version of LRL. Main forces are spearmen and archers doing mortal wounds, same in that regard, but LRL got so many tools to ignore battleshock, become tankier and they are all spell casters too, which they can even get bonuses to. LRL also basically got the KB waaagh all the time by default.

Comparing them rules wise there is little reason to play KB over LRL, Boltboyz is the workhorse but still falls short of the 360 noscope sentinels with up to 42" threat range with no LoS needed. Wardens are better anvils than rippaz, with more consistent damage output, better saves and defensive tools. LRL also got access to hyper fast cavalry and characters and the most powerful and versatile spells in the game with plenty of + to cast access.

KB has none of that. Spell casting ability is poor, with medium range spells and rarely any bonuses to cast or unbind (I know there is the idol or BW zap em etc, but they are expensive and/or circumstantial). Poor saves and bravery hurts the units and they require substantial support to become effective, where LRL units can work much more independently. 

I think KB is the better designed army for the game though, it has some scary MW threats, but to do that they need to make a lot of sacrifices, they also have plenty of vulnerabilities, such as poor movement, meh magic, incredibly poor bravery and bad saves. LRL has tools to cover every single possible weakness, which is good for WAAC tournament play, but bad for the game as a whole.

In regard to mobility:

I think the Vulcha is there for that mobility the rest of the army lacks, even though I find it to be a bit weak, it can help with battleshock initially, and then be an important tool to get various battle tactics done. With the army being so slow, and neede the sludgerakers to stick with the main force, having a fast flyer is important to grab a lot of different battle tactics, while also being a monster unlike the Gnashtooth. My main issue with wanting the sludgeraker, vulcha and mirebrutes is the drops...

LRL aren't good at BT which in the new 20-0 system is a huge weakness. You're going to see the results for LRL tank as this system of play becomes more prevalent. Even in this thread a few pages back a Battle Report where the KB player felt like he was smashed would be an 11-9 victory which is basically a draw. There are probably addition circumstances but that is pretty telling.

KB are much better situated for AoS3. The real question is about the actual validity of the playstyle at all. 

LRL want to be playing like KB they lack some of the things that make KBs work though. 

- Knowing your buffs will go off at BT selection.

- A variety of monsters and heroes that can fight and score bonus points

- alternative deployment tricks, and the ability to leverage high drop count

- enemy plan disruption; despite people's opinions to the contrary LRL don't have many cast bonuses. You can force magic through against them, and they can fail critical rolls. They also don't screen or have significant movement tricks beyound Speed of Hysh. Supa Sneaky is possibly the best control rule in the game.

The real question is can control builds win games when ordinary red decks are so prevalent and can pack a ton of power into 150 point units? As an example I've seen reports where a player fails to properly lock down 150 point goregrunta unit and proceeds to lose the game. Or Blood Knights, and salamanders. I think these sorts of units are what the meta is mad of at the moment and will be dominated by in the future. Tradable units under 200 points that can put out a ton of damage. 

This is where boltboy screens come in I think. But, I'm not sure how to play it on the table myself so I'd have to experiment. It's a much more defensive playstyle than I would prefer. 

 

 

 

[Ganigumo]

17 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

Isn't it possible for Gutrippaz to be both bad AND simultaneously necessary to be successful in KB? The army list doesn't exactly have any substitutes for that role. In Ironjawz as a random example, for a long time you had a direct apples-to-apples comparison between two equivalent like units which is how you could say 'brutes are bad' and be supremely confident you were right: because nearly everyone used Ardboys instead. Can't do that with KB, you want to win games you suck it up and make do with the tools you have.

I think this is pretty much the case, and its what is holding the army back. Boltboy spam is too fragile so we need something a bit more durable with some damage output as well, and the only option is gutrippaz. 

Our monsters fit into that role a bit, but don't fit well into battalions and aren't *that* durable.

[Bululu]

Well i must say i bought 2 dominions and now got an extra 2x gutrippaz, at the start i tought they were bad. But now i think they are more valuable 2+shaman+lizard they are great holders. Specially they are anti MW as you dont mind about quality dmg you only tremble around quantity dmg wich is not the meta right now in AOS3. Best thing you can have is big number of wounds, hopefully they get them a little point down like 160 and that would made them perfect. I plan playing at least 2x20 and i agree only bad thing they have is the points and been unable to get the poison once engaged.

[Landohammer]

On 10/30/2021 at 2:32 AM, Abstract_duck said:

The VP score of your game makes me wonder: did the LRL player not try to score too much, or was he having a decently hard time to score despite ruining your alpha strike? I feel like losing with just 4 points implies that it might've helped to just ignore the sentinels during the start, and instead using the bird and troll to score points. I get that getting tabled feels unwinnable, but unless the LRL player went easy on you in regards to scoring points, it seems like you might've tried to focus on VP,  even if you'd get tabled. I'd think that Kruleboyz have plenty of wounds to survive MW spam.

 

He castled pretty hard in a long deployment scenario, so he wasn't able to cap primaries every turn. He knew that if he got within 27" of bolt boyz then his units were toast. So he played the long game, and maxed out his battle tactics while picking up multiple monster kills.

Like I said, the game was close on paper but we both knew who was going to win as soon as his emerald swarm spell went off. Hence my multiple attempts at hail mary tactics lol. At one point i declared a charge vs teclis with 3 bolt boyz lmao. 

On 10/31/2021 at 11:08 AM, whispersofblood said:

You're struggling because you've built a fragile gunline and it's coming up against a gunline that isn't fragile to other gunlines. Not because a or b is over or under powered. The key to defeating LRL is giving them immediate threats to deal with that don't correspond to effecient BT selection. Their damage is very surgical and not at all significant so if they get distracted it's likely they just start failing BTs. 

LRL don't want to see gutrippers at all, an allied unit of troggoths are also rough for LRL to deal with effeciently. I'd add the Rogue Idol to that list.

My experience with boltboyz says they are a trap choice because gutrippaz don't appear strong. Long term however I see a gutrippa core supported by MSU hobgrot objective runners and screens as the model for success. Also don't sleep on hobgrot shooting it's some of the most effecient point per damage shooting in the game. 

What the army is lacking imo is a good trading unit, where IJ has goregruntas and BS have boars. The closest I've come to such a thing is a killboss either the Vulcha or the gnashtooth. 

I'm going to have to disagree. I did the exact alpha strike tactic you mentioned, but the sentinels were just too resilient when they needed to be. And he had the tools to bring them back.

I think a lot of us underestimate gutrippaz and troggoth allies, and that is a good point for sure. But the sentinels aren't the only critical issue for us in LRL. Total Eclipse and Voice of the mountain are ALSO huge issues. 

For example, I had 4 units camped on two objectives, properly screened. He casted total eclipse, voice of the mountain, and tecnado. He then shot my troggoths with sentinels (who actually rolled quite poorly). So now nearly every unit in my army had to take a battle shock test. Most of them were at least  -4 after casualties, and inspiring presence was debuffed to cost 2CP.

 I lost the entire troggoth unit to battleshock and barely had enough CP to do Inspiring Presence on the gutrippaz. The "just camp on objectives" strategy doesn't work if you are bleeding hordes of points every turn. 

I respect that there are some really good Kruleboyz players out there who can take down LRL, but if you are implying that its a favorable matchup for Kruleboyz then we are just on different planets. And I think meta data and popular opinion are firmly on my planet lol. 

 

[Mutton]

Gutrippas definitely need to come down to 160. Hobgrots could be 70. Killabow should be 110-120. Gnashtoof killaboss could be 160. Murknob Banner should also be around 75-80 for how little he does. Everything else is probably fine.

Gutrippas are not only too expensive for how they perform, they're restricting army building because they're the only true battleline option. Also, people saying how good they are with "a shaman and a croc" seem to be missing how expensive that combo is. Even with just x20, it's 780 points. 780 points that can die in a single round quite easily (poor saves and bravery are not great bedfellows). If ANYTHING with strong offensive power hits them, the whole team just disintegrates.

It's too much required investment to get anything close to what other armies can output--hell, just look at the insane things the Stormcast can do with their 3rd ed book at half the point cost.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Mutton

[zombiepiratexxx]

I always find it interesting that from a lore perspective Orruks are a race bred for war and love nothing better than having a big fight and krumping stuff, yet, from a rules point of view, the moment they get into a good fight they'll turn their tails and flee because someone has to have low Bravery to account for Death and Chaos Daemons, so lets just make Destruction the low Bravery faction. I know that fluff does not equal rules and I can understand gitz being likely to scarper if things don't go their way but I can't imagine a Brute running away with his tail between his legs because he got a bloody nose. 

[NauticalSoup]

You don't think so? Ork and orc and orruk culture are all about the biggest meanest guy krumping his way to dominance. They just intuitively defer to someone stronger, so it stands to reason when they're -losing- a fight they're quick to throw in the towel.

[whispersofblood]

@Landohammer Perhaps its how I've was trained to play these games or any combinations of other factors, but I think maybe we could look at this problem from a completely different perspective. I think you have a pretty reasonable if not entirely community consistent view of KB, imo its just not the best way for the average or even above average gamer to think about factions. Its why I think sign posting is bad for gamer development generally and ultimately believe it leads to a lot of the "balance issues" gamers profess. vis-a-vis if my liner combo isn't as good as effective or liner as my opponent's its a serious balance issue. before I really get in to it, I'm not specifically talking at you, I'm mostly just using your problem as an example that we can all flex our minds to resolve. But, I do hope you can take something from my ramblings.

In the bad old days before the internet and communities like this there was significantly more grassroots faction development and it lead to a lot more organic lists. Yes, some were better than others but what matters is the understanding of the interaction between the game and the set of rules provided to the faction. Sign posting necessarily requires the developers to be better at this than gamers and I don't think that has every been demonstrated to be true.

To make this about KB, I think the Big Yellers >Shaman > Boltboyz > do dmg, liner strategy is terrible at what the game asks you to do, and thus produces suboptimal results for the average gamer. Its ultimately why I think LRL are poorly designed as well, and why despite what the early AoS 3 stats say will trend downwards until they get a new book. I often ask myself if this wasn't so obvious would I even do it?

So a reasonable question is well if that is so wrong Whispers, what is the right answer?

Forget everything you know about KB and think about what does the game ask you to do. 

To me the game asks two things:

1. Hold space on the board, the more space you hold the more points you'll score.

2. Achieve 5 tasks through the game in your turn; preferably with a monster 

The answer imo to these questions is:

1a. Prevent my opponent from getting to the places I want to hold

1b. Survive for as long as it is economically feasible to do so when my opponent does get there.

I think about them in that order of importance as well, surviving in a place is bad tactically because it always carries risk and a cost. Prevention has less risk, and if you have the tools can be less expensive.

2a. I need to have 6 tasks I know I can achieve with relative ease

2b. How many tasks can I achieve without my opponent's interaction

2c. How many tasks are synergistic to what I want to accomplish in question 1.

"a" is at the top because its ultimately a list building question, if you don't build your lists with these tasks in mind you will introduce uncertainty into your games.

"b" is about retaining as much certainty in your scoring as possible, its why Broken Ranks is less valuable than Savage Spearhead or Ferocious Advance. Savage Spearhead in particular because often you can literally not do anything and get 3 points.

"c" is really b.1, because you want to be picking up points for doing the thing you were going to do anyway. Its why people often don't get the most value out of Ferocious Advance as they can, or why they fail Broken Ranks more often than they should.

                                                                                                                            

Ok so those are the problems to solve, the question for me picking up a new book is how do my rules let me solve these problems.

I'd start providing solutions in this order, 2a, 1a, 2b, 1b, 2c. 

When I look at the KB rules I think the viable battle tactics are:

Take Dat, Ya Suckers!

Ferocious Advance

Savage Spearhead

Monstrous Takeover

Broken Ranks

Conquer/Aggressive Expansion

In the margins I noted down that if my opponent has a monster holding an objective Bring It Down! is a good way to score bonus points. 

When I look at the options I've selected, shooting doesn't help me really achieve these off the rip except the first so I naturally value shooting less than movement and combat, especially the combination of movement and combat. I also know my opponent is going to particularly target my battleline and Monsters for death so I need to be careful when I select them as they will cost me at some point.

For me this leads me to a battleline combination of 30 Gutrippas, 3 Boltboyz, 3 Boltboyz. I know 6 boltboyz should expect between 7-8 dmg at 27" for 240 points. They can also distribute that damage to weaken units for destruction later or about 3-4 dmg to a hero in cover with a 4+ save. Not bad for battleline with no additional spend and very little structural weakness. And, if my opponent targets them for destruction their loss is manageable and they can be quite difficult to target early game. So the next question is how do I get over the line to 10 dmg, while limiting my opponent's ability to achieve the same strategic aims I'm looking for. 

The answer to me is Supa Sneaky and Hobgrots. 10 Hobgrots do about 2-3 dmg with their shooting for no additional spend. 20 do 4-5. That gets me to between 11-13 dmg for no cost more than the units themselves. Now the hobgrots are very likely to die in the return or if my opponent takes turn 1 before they do anything. So I have to consider what else do they do? Well the definitely block space, they aren't battleline so my opponent right away has to choose a BT that isn't inline with their plan for the turn, and if I position well they can contest an objective, preventing my opponent from controlling objectives at the start of the game, or gain control in my opponents turn. 

To extract maximum value I need a hero that can be my general, preferable one that doesn't need to fight as I don't want to give up Slay the Warlord, but I can be tempted if it gets me more value somewhere else. To me the logical choice is the sludgeraker, as it gains the most from being the General (18 cmd radius namely), and doesn't need to fight just be around to provide a bonus to several units at once with Sludgeraker Venom, buffing my Rippas and my Boltboyz in a pretty flexible radius something like a 30" diameter. Given that he is primarly in a support rule I'd want to lean into that role, with his artefact so I'd take either Arcane tome or Mork's Eye Pebble, but I'd leave that choice until later. 

My next focus would be movement as Ferocious Advance and Savage Spearhead want units that either want to run, or preferable not need to shoot, sometimes just being a different target is enough. Given the KB don't have cav, I'd be looking at any unit with good movement. There are a few options here, either more hobgrots (as they run and shoot), Killboss on Gnashtoof or Vulcha or Breaka-boss. given that a hero is really just a warscroll+ I'd probably lean into heroes at this point. I'd shoot for 3 here, going with 3 breaka-bosses! The do good damage, are cheap enough to trade, tough enough to require dedicated effort to kill, don't take battleshock and notably fit where ever I want them to. If I was feeling cheeky I'd bump one to a Dankhold Troggboss for some cheeky rerolls.

Ok no I start running into points problems, so I need to make some choices. I probably start by dropping 10 Rippas, because I can live without the extra models and I don't primarily intend to be needing to do massive amounts of dmg in combat. And, I probably drop the cheeky Troggboss. 

Next I want to be able to interfere where my opponent might be strong. So things like magic, and high saves or high model count. To me magic is a natural catch all for utility. Its unreliable so I don't want to use it as my method of scoring points, I want to use it to destabilize and hinder my opponent. The KB lore is great at turning my opponents strengths into weaknesses, things like The Black Pit, and Choking Mists, but also utility like Nasty Hex, and Sneaky Miasma. The deck is very utility so I want as much of it as possible, on a platform that can get around. Gobspakk is a great caster and provides some counter battery ability to make casters wary about unnecessary but beneficial casts. Also I have arcane tome is a good tech enhancement. So maybe I taker a Killboss with his generally high utility, with the arcane tome, movement is king so a gnashtoof is gold. Equipped with Fast'un for a cheeky Nasty Hex or Da Black Pit sneak attack. 

With my last few points I want to shore up in screens or model count, and 10 more hobgrots fit well, they are cheap enough to be used expendably and have enough on the warscroll to provide me options on the board.

Ultimetly the list looks like this:

Sludgeraker: General; Supa Sneaky; Mork's Eye Pebble

Gobsprakk

Breaka-boss

Breaka-boss

Killaboss on Gnashtoof; Arcane Tome: Da Black Pit; Fast'un

20 Gutrippas

3 Manskewer Bolt Boyz

3 Manskewer Bolt Boys

20 Hobgrots Slittas

10 Hobgrots Slittas

I take a Warlord, a Finga, and probably a Hunters as my core battalions. 

The next stage is play testing, where you play against as many armies on as many battleplans as you can with the same list so you can see where your list is strong and weak, or where you got it wrong with your build trade offs. But, the key is to not get too attached to any one choice or part of a choice. If Gobsprakk never casts a spell but he suppresses the opponent's magic sufficiently then maybe that is enough reason to have him. Maybe the Arcane tome isn't enough across multiple games, so you switch your artefacts and mount traits around, but the key is making sure you play your core strategy as many times as possible.

[Fabbbio]

1 hour ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

I always find it interesting that from a lore perspective Orruks are a race bred for war and love nothing better than having a big fight and krumping stuff, yet, from a rules point of view, the moment they get into a good fight they'll turn their tails and flee because someone has to have low Bravery to account for Death and Chaos Daemons, so lets just make Destruction the low Bravery faction. I know that fluff does not equal rules and I can understand gitz being likely to scarper if things don't go their way but I can't imagine a Brute running away with his tail between his legs because he got a bloody nose. 

In my mind the archery pe for orcs are the barbarians of the late Roman Empire for how they were depicted: mean, dirty, speaking a weird unwritten language. Strong warriors but with no discipline. So it perfectly fits the low bravery of destruction

[Mutton]

1 hour ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

someone has to have low Bravery to account for Death and Chaos Daemons, so lets just make Destruction the low Bravery faction.

Yeah Bravery is a joke in this game. Half of the armies are basically immune to it, while the other half are required to spend extra resources to make sure they don't all run away at the drop of a hat. And it's not like the ones with worse bravery have any other meaningful advantage with better stats or abilities. I'm convinced the rules writers just hand out Bravery based on their "feeling" of what it should be lore-wise, but otherwise don't take it into account when balancing at all.

[dnusha]

I'm looking at unit of Gutrippaz like on a unit of  Savage orcs. (literally the same profile): 180 vs 165 points. Savage orcs can do exploding hits on 6 to hit and mortals on 6 to wound in Icebone. Gutrippaz deal mortals on 6(5+) to hit.  Both of them can recieve +1 to save from a wardok on 3+/swampcalla. Both of them have +1 charge and +1 bravery. Savage orcs have 6+ ward. Gutrippaz can debuff enemy unit  with -1 to hit in charge phase in 12'. (not hero or monster, but most monsters/heroes don't want to charge them anyway). Bonesplitterz Waaagh allows you to have 4+ ward in combat phase, Morks Eye Pebble allows you to have 4+ ward in enemy shooting phase.

Gutrippaz mortal wounds can do double damage with a Sludgedraker. (just think about it, with luck one MODEL of gutrippaz is capable of inflicting 2-4 Mortal wounds, do you want to take a chance charging a block of these guys?).

Gutrippaz can improve their armor save for up to 2+ if you know someone is about to charge them this turn. (swapmcalla +1 save, Mystic Shield +1 and AoD +1).  Imagine you are charging into 20 2+ save gutrippaz while having -1 to hit debuff on you.  They will survive and they will hit you back. they can have 3+ save with 5+ VEW as well. 

The 'problem' with gutrippaz comes form a common kruleboyz feature of being a very synergetic and slow faction. If you don't recieve a buff from a certain unit you feel like you are missing something. Also since these buffs are pretty strong and their range is limited they force you to position your units together in one big more or less tight formation. You have to be wholly within 12' from sludgedraker,  in 3' from a swampcalla, wholly within 12' from belcha banner, wholly within 18' for Waaagh, wholly within 12 for Morks Eye pebble, maybe even in 3' from kilaboss. (you have to pick many units as well - point wise)

It's fine when you are against more or less melee armies - you are slow, they are charging you, you counterpunch them into oblivion with waaagh. Enemy casters can be more or less countered with swampcallas and belcha banner (this can be a bit dicey), Kruleboyz are weak against strong shooting armies (not surprising this is meta problem), they can outrange you and kill your main guys (sludgedraker, swampcallas, boltboyz) after that, your gutrippaz are not scary anymore. You can more or less counter this with egomaniak/amulet of destiny on sludgedraker or try to supa sneaky troggoth to take your opponents unit down (with various degree of success) or just try to survive with Grinnin blades clan for first battleround and Morks Eye pebble for shooting in second one. My 2 cents.

 

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by dnusha

[Landohammer]

@whispersofblood How many games have you played with KB and vs what? Give me some context of your meta. 

I strongly disagree with your list my friend. No shaman? Gobsprakk, and 30 hob grots? It just doesn't seem like the kind of list I would lead off with when trying to put forth a competitive and contrarion analysis.

Gobsprakk has some pretty interesting anti-magic properties, but the factions that dominate with magic (tzeentch, seraphon, and LRL) will just sail right over his dispels. And the faction most vulnerable to the mandrake  (LRL) got FAQ'd so that their unit champions don't take the mortals. Gobsprakk just doesn't hold up even in the most ideal circumstances i'm afraid

Gutrippaz have the damage output, there is no doubt. But practical application is difficult. Consider when they charge outside of the Sludgerakers aura, or more often, when they can't maximize on a pile in due to the same Sludgerakers positioning.  Or even worse, when you charge too far away from the Swamp calla so on your next turn he is too far away to buff them again. So what ends up happening is you have a 360pt unit that is functionally a 780pt blob. 

Yes bolt boyz are a trap because they are fragile. But Gutrippaz are also a trap because they take high skill and ideal circumstances to field to their maximum potential. Bolt boyz are point and click. 

Sadly, IMHO,  the most competitive way to field Kruleboys is to capitalize on the ability to take the most powerful model from the most powerful book in the game. (gatebreaker mega gargant). And to build the rest of the list around that model. And in that circumstance its bolt boyz spam, sludgeraker, shaman, and then salt to taste. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ganigumo]

@whispersofblood I agree that playing for objectives/battle tactics should be the priority/focus of a list and that units in different armies aren't always directly comparable, but the issue with KB is that measured across many different factions they end up falling short. The army has a lot of tools to handle different threats, but the problem is none of those tools work against armies actually good at doing what the tool is supposed to answer.

Gutrippaz aren't durable enough to hold an objective against any proper hammer, and don't have the damage output to force tarpits off objectives (and without buffs can struggle to even clear screens).

Boltboyz have good damage and threat projection, but have paper thin defenses so if anything gets the opportunity to shoot/cast/charge them they vanish.

Gobsprakk has no bonuses to cast, and a once per game 3d6 unbind. average of 3d6 is 10.5, average of 2d6 is 7, so even against a caster on a +3 he'll struggle to dispel with his once per game ability. He'll work fine against armies without strong magic, but armies with strong magic don't really care about this guy. He's also got paper thin defenses.

Hobgrots are pretty good as far as chaff goes.

 

At the event I was at recently (I played spiderfang) most armies were either using a super powered monster hero (like archaon or SoB) to basically auto complete battle tactics or putting out absurd levels of damage to just cripple/table the opponent then control/complete battle tactics uncontested. KB don't have a strong enough hero monster, or enough speed/damage to play to that meta, or enough wounds/durability to try to counter it. I had more wounds than your list, with plenty of screens and was basically tabled by the top of t2 against DoK (literally tabled at the top of t3). 

The army desperately wants to be a proper mixed arms force, but all of the other mixed arms forces in the game can build lists that are legitimately strong in certain phases, while kruleboyz is just middling in all of them  because of lack of speed, output or durability.

 

@dnusha 20 gutrippaz with full buffs do around 22.22 damage on average, Also charging them is nearly always the right decision. If you're a tarpit you can take the hit and deny the opponent their poisons in the next round of combat. If you're an actual hammer you can severely cripple the unit before it fights back. 20 Gutrippaz will die to any competitive hammers at the moment too. The "true bulk" of the unit (how many rend-0 wounds to kill it) is 53.3. Mega Gargants sit at 52.5 and are the unit everyone builds hammers to try to kill in a single round of combat, but even if the gutrippaz survive by a bit they "bracket" harder than the gargant does.

 

[NauticalSoup]

I used to run stacked buffs on 30 man blobs of Savage Orruks and if people could chew through that in 2.0 (that can, and did.) it shouldn't be surprising most hammer units will have you picking up your 20 Gutrippaz after a single round of combat.

@Ganigumo is that 22.22 damage before saves or after? If that's before saves yikes that's low, even if a bunch are mortals. 

[Ganigumo]

4 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

I used to run stacked buffs on 30 man blobs of Savage Orruks and if people could chew through that in 2.0 (that can, and did.) it shouldn't be surprising most hammer units will have you picking up your 20 Gutrippaz after a single round of combat.

@Ganigumo is that 22.22 damage before saves or after? If that's before saves yikes that's low, even if a bunch are mortals. 

I assumed a 4+, but 4s and 4s with no rend is basically no damage, especially when you consider that only 4s are doing any non mortal damage. before saves its 23.91 damage, so the difference between a 4+ and '-' is only ~2 damage.

[Fabbbio]

12 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

@whispersofblood

 

@dnusha 20 gutrippaz with full buffs do around 22.22 damage on average, Also charging them is nearly always the right decision. If you're a tarpit you can take the hit and deny the opponent their poisons in the next round of combat. If you're an actual hammer you can severely cripple the unit before it fights back. 20 Gutrippaz will die to any competitive hammers at the moment too. The "true bulk" of the unit (how many rend-0 wounds to kill it) is 53.3. Mega Gargants sit at 52.5 and are the unit everyone builds hammers to try to kill in a single round of combat, but even if the gutrippaz survive by a bit they "bracket" harder than the gargant does.

 

That's why 10 man units come in hand. You can charge with em removing a screen, and in the opponent's turn they become the screen (and at 180 points for 20 wounds they're even a good screen). So then you get the initiative with the 20 men big unit. 10 men units are also easier to deploy and move, and despite the 2' range it's common to have men out of combat in a big unit (especially against msu). 

[Zorki]

Whispersofblood 

Interesting briefing about your list. When you talk about mobility, do you know this units : Rippa's Snarfang ? I just copy an interesting interview from Craig Papinniemi :

"This army is pretty slow with the average movement being 5″ (even with plus one to charge), so the inclusion of the Rippas Snarlfangs gives us some access to a fast, 6” pile in MSU unit that can score late, act as a screen, 2.9″ tag and most importantly be our throwaway unit for locking up Unleash Hell. They are an invaluable little unit that I hope others pick up."

When you talk about bodies to take / control the board. You mentionned the Hobgrot Slittaz (10+20) have you considered the Shootas units ? More efficient as a screen (1x20 for 140 pts + to many -1 neg effect) i think you can take something like 1 Hobgrot (10) + 1 Shootas block as a screen (20). Depend about which utility you are searching with this block.

 

I have noticed some list with double Breaka-boss Mirebute, i'm interesting to see if it's worth to take 2. Tell me your battle report feeling 👍🙂

 

About magic ... 

 

I'm pretty sur Gobsprakk is meh... in the Belgium tournament i checked : I noticed to many list with Gobsprakk, the kruleboyz player with list using Gobsprakk have a bad %win. When i compare to the Australian tournament, to many Kruleboyz list was without Gobsprakk and they pop on the top of the tournament result (Pts / %win).

 

Actually... Maybe 3/4 of this community will argu but Gobsprakk isn't worth it for what he can do (no bonus unbind/cast) meh commmand trait.

 

I can go wrong, for sur... I just look the tournament list/result/average pts.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Zorki
:)

[Squark]

13 minutes ago, Fabbbio said:

That's why 10 man units come in hand. You can charge with em removing a screen, and in the opponent's turn they become the screen (and at 180 points for 20 wounds they're even a good screen). So then you get the initiative with the 20 men big unit. 10 men units are also easier to deploy and move, and despite the 2' range it's common to have men out of combat in a big unit (especially against msu). 

An average 10 Mortal wounds and 1.7 unsaved wounds is not a reliable screen clearer. And that's if you can afford to use a Shaman on a 10-man unit and get a Sludgeraker in position.

[Fabbbio]

15 minutes ago, Squark said:

An average 10 Mortal wounds and 1.7 unsaved wounds is not a reliable screen clearer. And that's if you can afford to use a Shaman on a 10-man unit and get a Sludgeraker in position.

Tbh, as a nighthaunt player I always feel unconfortable when my troops are outside 12 inch range of heroes 🤣 btw, 10 mws is usually just what u need. An enemy 10 wounds unit might remain with 1 or 2 models but then you got the space u needed, and the opponent might choose to not use inspiring presence on them. Plus, as I said you got your 10 men gutrippaz where you needed and the enemy will charge with their more valuable unit.

All in all it's always a matter of holding the chance to choose who fights even in the opp turn what makes the difference.